Ukraine General

[ProfTournesol 956]

There is evidence that Georgia started the conflict, and Russia fought for lands that were rightfully theirs. US on the other hand has the urge to fly thousands of km away from it's border to deal their brand of justice.

Not gonna comment on Ukraine cause the whole deal is still foggy.

Could you also name any Russian intervention other than in Georgia? (Those within it's territory do not count)

I don't want to start a ridiculous count of what Russia did or what the US did, i was just replying on "the US are bullying smaller countries".

[Tonci87 163]

So according to you, ukrainian army is now intervening into the separatist territories, who are now no longer inside Ukraine. Since I dont remember there was any UN mandate allowing Ukraine to intervene into that territories.

Gongratulations, you have just branded Ukraine criminal for to their "illegal" (again according to your logic) military operation.

Oh wait I forgot something, its only Russia and China who arent allowed to do it.

BTW, calling someone's point of view "wicked", just because its not like yours, is rather inappropriate. It can be compared to people calling other people heretics, because their beliefs are different.

For that the Separatist areas actually had to be a state wich is not the case. I remind you that before this whole mess there was absolutely no political movement for independence. Suddenly people with guns started to appear and that was it.

[mistyronin 1181]

For that the Separatist areas actually had to be a state wich is not the case. I remind you that before this whole mess there was absolutely no political movement for independence. Suddenly people with guns started to appear and that was it.

Yep, in fact the principle right of self-determination referes to historical nations that also have been oppressed for years by another country.

For one side Eastern Ukraine is not an historical nation, second it hasn't been oppressed for years by anyone.

In fact was just after Yanukovich ran away to Russia to escape from legal prosecution that some pro-Russian violent groups started a terror campaign assaulting police stations and town halls.

[Tonci87 163]

Yep, in fact the principle right of self-determination referes to historical nations that also have been oppressed for years by another country.

For one side Eastern Ukraine is not an historical nation, second it hasn't been oppressed for years by anyone.

In fact was just after Yanukovich ran away to Russia to escape from legal prosecution that some pro-Russian violent groups started a terror campaign assaulting police stations and town halls.

That distinguishes a real fight for independency from a made up one.

[negah 26]

Well no one was oppressing them until the government changed and a law was about to be passed that prohibited the use of russian language.

But I guess it cant count as oppression, because its just russian language you know, for russian speaking people, and they dont deserve any rights in the Grand Ukraine apparently. Its also totally ok to burn them in big houses and beat survivors to death. I mean theyre only some russians or russian supporters.

That law was abolished AFTER the eastern ukrainian regions rebelled. But I guess that law was also simply russian propaganda anyway.

[mistyronin 1181]

Well no one was oppressing them until the government changed and a law was about to be passed that prohibited the use of russian language.

But I guess it cant count as oppression, because its just russian language you know, for russian speaking people, and they dont deserve any rights in the Grand Ukraine apparently. Its also totally ok to burn them in big houses and beat survivors to death. I mean theyre only some russians or russian supporters.

That law was abolished AFTER the eastern ukrainian regions rebelled. But I guess that law was also simply russian propaganda anyway.

Interesting. You play the victim card.

BTW the law didn't prohibit the use of Russian language. It simply said that the official language of Ukraine was Ukrainian. Using your same logic in the US all the languages are forbidden as there is no official language.

And no, that doesn't change the time, it was not oppression for years of a historical nation.

Besides no was burned in their houses and beat the survivors. In fact there are Russian speaking Ukrainians in more than half Ukraine and they even fight on the Gov side ( there are Ukrainian National Guard battalions formed by only Russian speakers ).

What's your next argument... Ukraine send dragons to burn Russian speaking villages? And locust to destroy their fields?

Edited October 1, 2014 by MistyRonin

[negah 26]

My next argument is that this whole thread has become a farce and im simply wasting my time here.

So someone has to be oppressed for many years to be officially recognised as oppression? Will you like it if your employer cuts your wage in half and says that you can quit only after 5 years?

As always anyone who doesnt represent the mainstream point of view is a heretic, conspiracy theorist, madman. And everyohe feels obliged to discredit them. They seem to ignore the fact though, that by calling someone a conspiracy theorist (dragons) they just as well love to believe in some conspiracy theories themselves (russian green men everywhere).

You're twisting the facts of what happened in Odessa not caring that people were murdered there and no one is wanting to investigate it, just as maidan shooting (that official version is a farce too).

Just like youre going to protect any war USA are waging because they like to kill a lot of people for a good cause (and that something what is good for USA may not be good for the people of that country... well its good for the USA, who cares about other people).

Well anyway, arguing is pointless.

[mistyronin 1181]

So someone has to be oppressed for many years to be officially recognised as oppression? Will you like it if your employer cuts your wage in half and says that you can quit only after 5 years?

You should first read what we were talking about. We were not talking about official recognition but about the international law principle of self-determination and in which cases that is applied.

So don't take conclusions when you don't even know what we were talking about.

Check for instance this link:

http://opil.ouplaw.com/view/10.1093/law:epil/9780199231690/law-9780199231690-e873

If you don't like the international law conventions, just go to the UN and convince all the countries of the World to change them ( and also to change the past history ).

Edited October 1, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Tonci87 163]

Interesting. You play the victim card.

BTW the law didn't prohibit the use of Russian language. It simply said that the official language of Ukraine was Ukrainian. Using your same logic in the US all the languages are forbidden as there is no official language.

And no, that doesn't change the time, it was not oppression for years of a historical nation.

Besides no was burned in their houses and beat the survivors. In fact there are Russian speaking Ukrainians in more than half Ukraine and they even fight on the Gov side ( there are Ukrainian National Guard battalions formed by only Russian speakers ).

What's your next argument... Ukraine send dragons to burn Russian speaking villages? And locust to destroy their fields?

Quite similiar to what happened in Croatia when it declared it´s independence. The Serbian minority was mad becaus the new constitution declared Croatia as the national state of the Croatian nation and Croatian as the official language. While before Croatia was the state of Croatians and Serbs with Serbocroatian as the spoken language (I still have an old German-Serbocroatian translation book here, the language in there is not Croatian at all, it is Serbian). Fears fueled by propaganda from Belgrade and nationalistic parties led them to believe that they will have no right inside Croatia although the new constitution explicitly said:

the national state of the Croatian nation and a state of members of other nations and minorities who are its citizens: Serbs ... who are guaranteed equality with citizens of Croatian nationality ..."

That is why I say that those two wars are so similiar.

In both cases a Country decided to get it´s independence from their former opressors.

The ethnic minorities belonging to that opressor are through nationalistic fear inducing propaganda led to believe that they will have less rights in the new state or be outright deported or something.

Suddenly people with Weapons turn up and start attacking police stations.

A new Rebel state is beeing declared out of nowhere without any historical justification.

War between the Rebel state and the new state emerges.

The old opressor massively supports the Rebel state.

Putin and Milosevic must have played by the same rulebook, the only difference is that the Russian minority in Ukraine is much larger than the Serb minority in Croatia has been and that Russia is able to give the Rebels much more support than Serbia was able to.

[surpher 1]

(BBC) Shell kills four at Donetsk school

No children were apparently hurt when the school playground was shelled but a biology teacher and a parent were among the dead, witnesses told Reuters.

The Kiev-controlled regional administration said rebels from the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic (DPR) had opened fire with a multiple-launch rocket system.

But DPR deputy leader Andrei Purgin told Russian TV that Ukrainian rocket launchers had targeted residential areas from as far as 40km (25 miles) away.

(The Interpreter ) Ukraine Liveblog Day 226: Shells Strike Donetsk Bus And School, Killing At Least 10 Civilians

AFP's Paul Gypteau is on scene and he says that one of the rockets sticking out of an impact crater clearly shows that the rockets came from the opposite direction as the Donetsk Airport -- from the territory occupied by Russian-backed militants:

(The Telegraph) Facts distorted as Moscow claims hundreds of bodies discovered in Ukrainian 'mass graves'

“This is obviously a war crime,†Sergei Lavrov told a press conference in Moscow. “Already more than 400 bodies have been discovered in burial sites outside Donetsk and we hope that western capitals will not hush up these facts [because] they’re horrific.â€

RIA Novosti, the influential state-run news agency, ran the headline: “OSCE expert: about 400 bodies found in burial sites near Donetsk.â€

However, a close reading of Mr Graudins’ comments shows that he spoke only of 400 unidentified bodies being located in Donetsk morgues, where many bodies of victims from the armed conflict in eastern Ukraine have been taken.

Casting more doubt on the veracity of the reports, the OSCE published a statement saying that Mr Graudins – who is actually a pro-Russian activist in Latvia – had “no link whatsoever†to the organisation.

Edited October 1, 2014 by surpher

[aleksadragutin 9]

Quite similiar to what happened in Croatia when it declared it´s independence. The Serbian minority was mad becaus the new constitution declared Croatia as the national state of the Croatian nation and Croatian as the official language. While before Croatia was the state of Croatians and Serbs with Serbocroatian as the spoken language (I still have an old German-Serbocroatian translation book here, the language in there is not Croatian at all, it is Serbian). Fears fueled by propaganda from Belgrade and nationalistic parties led them to believe that they will have no right inside Croatia although the new constitution explicitly said:

That is why I say that those two wars are so similiar.

In both cases a Country decided to get it´s independence from their former opressors.

The ethnic minorities belonging to that opressor are through nationalistic fear inducing propaganda led to believe that they will have less rights in the new state or be outright deported or something.

Suddenly people with Weapons turn up and start attacking police stations.

A new Rebel state is beeing declared out of nowhere without any historical justification.

War between the Rebel state and the new state emerges.

The old opressor massively supports the Rebel state.

Putin and Milosevic must have played by the same rulebook, the only difference is that the Russian minority in Ukraine is much larger than the Serb minority in Croatia has been and that Russia is able to give the Rebels much more support than Serbia was able to.

What happened in Croatia is a humanitarian tragedy, first Serbs were declared an unconstitutional people and 5 years after that close to a million Serbs simply disappeared from Croatia. That is a fact you can't deny, and you shouldn't make a parallel with fighting for freedom and rights.

Speaking of minorities 15-20 % (i'm not really sure) of the whole population was Serbian, after the war it was less than 5%. Not even gonna mention that they made a majority in the regions they inhabited.

Please don't twist the story in your favor (at least out of respect for the victims).

Getting side tracked here.

Regarding separation. If you really believe what you said, that a nation has to have historical bases, then how can anyone claim that nationalities such as Bosnian or Monte Negro exist? They didn't exist a 100 years ago, so how did they just spawn? If what you say is true, then how can you make a difference between fighting a rebellion and an invasion, or an anti-terrorist operation for that matter? The UN tells you?

---------- Post added at 18:33 ---------- Previous post was at 18:32 ----------

Because there is an international legislation, there are also international tribunals, an international parliament ( UN ), and international executive power ( the UN SC ), etc. You should know better than anyone as Serbia has been affected by all of them.

Oh yes, I know. The NATO aggression on Serbia was started without UN Security Council approval.

P.S. I'm just waiting for an infraction for my heretic views. I'd just like to state that I didn't bring this up.

Edited October 1, 2014 by aleksadragutin

[mistyronin 1181]

Oh yes, I know. The NATO aggression on Serbia was started without UN Security Council approval.

These resolutions were passed one year before the NATO bombings, all deplore what Serbia was doing ( and Russia didn't use their right to veto it, so they allowed it )

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1160 ( in 1998, no vote against it in the SC )

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1199 ( in 1998, no vote against it in the SC )

This one is after. What you called the "invasion", also allowed by Russia.

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1244 ( in 1999, no vote against it in the SC )

So yeah, all was legal, and approved by Russia ( Russia voted in favor of all three resolutions, the only abstention was China all three times ).

Edited October 1, 2014 by MistyRonin

[beastcat 14]

Reuters - Putin rules out Internet curbs despite cyber attacks

President Vladimir Putin said on Wednesday he would not restrict Internet access for Russians but Moscow must protect state domains against a surge of cyber attacks since the Ukraine crisis began.

His remarks were intended to douse speculation that he plans a crackdown on use of the Internet, which he has called a "CIA project" used to organize protests against him, as tensions mount with the West over the Ukraine crisis.

lol

Remember, Putin said earlier that the internet as a whole is a CIA project, so in the hypothetical russian's mind this makes total sense.

Edited October 1, 2014 by beastcat

[mistyronin 1181]

Remember, Putin said earlier that the internet as a whole is a CIA project, so in the hypothetical russian's mind this makes total sense.

Well Internet was based in ARPAnet, which was a US Defense project ( although no links with the CIA ).

Funny thing is that nowadays Internet is not controled by anyone in most of the World. Some try but it's practically impossible, unless you shut down the nodes.

[aleksadragutin 9]

These resolutions were passed one year before the NATO bombings, all deplore what Serbia was doing ( and Russia didn't use their right to veto it, so they allowed it )

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1160 ( in 1998, no vote against it in the SC )

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1199 ( in 1998, no vote against it in the SC )

This one is after. What you called the "invasion", also allowed by Russia.

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1244 ( in 1999, no vote against it in the SC )

So yeah, all was legal, and approved by Russia ( Russia voted in favor of all three resolutions, the only abstention was China all three times ).

And non of those resolutions are approving bombing and military operations against Yugoslavia (Serbia and Monte Negro). The bombing campaign started without UN SC consultations. You are saying this like Russia approved the bombing. It didn't and it was never asked.

---------- Post added at 19:12 ---------- Previous post was at 19:09 ----------

Reuters - Putin rules out Internet curbs despite cyber attacks

lol

Remember, Putin said earlier that the internet as a whole is a CIA project, so in the hypothetical russian's mind this makes total sense.

I guess the whole human rights violations hysteria (caused by maybe cutting off internet) was for nothing.

[mistyronin 1181]

And non of those resolutions are approving bombing and military operations against Yugoslavia (Serbia and Monte Negro). The bombing campaign started without UN SC consultations. You are saying this like Russia approved the bombing. It didn't and it was never asked.

Russia took part in the condemnation of Serbian activities in Kosovo ( there are more resolutions in fact ), and didn't veto them, in fact voted in favor of the huge majority of condemning resolutions. So even if Russia didn't participate in the bombings, neither condemned them and acted in the line of the NATO countries ( and most of the world ).

The only one that thought that was an internal affair and that Serbia was acting rightfully was China, hence they abstained in all the resolutions. So you should praise China not Russia.

I guess the whole human rights violations hysteria (caused by maybe cutting off internet) was for nothing.

Russia has already issued different laws limiting the use of the internet. You can check the links we posted previously in this thread. I posted some from RIA Novosti.

Edited October 1, 2014 by MistyRonin

[oxmox 73]

These resolutions were passed one year before the NATO bombings, all deplore what Serbia was doing ( and Russia didn't use their right to veto it, so they allowed it )

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1160 ( in 1998, no vote against it in the SC )

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1199 ( in 1998, no vote against it in the SC )

This one is after. What you called the "invasion", also allowed by Russia.

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1244 ( in 1999, no vote against it in the SC )

So yeah, all was legal, and approved by Russia ( Russia voted in favor of all three resolutions, the only abstention was China all three times ).

mmmh...actually the first two UN resolutions are about the security, the last one is about the interim administration.

The Kosovo war was maybe legitim but not legal because there was no UN mandate for the NATO.

check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia

If you guys want to get more infos about how the Kosovo War did start and how the public opinion got manipulated by telling lies and misled them, you should check out this documentary with english subtitles. This is a german documentary and was broadcasted on the first national TV channel.

Kosovo War - It started with a Lie (several parts and really excellent documentary with english subs)

Edited October 1, 2014 by oxmox

[Tonci87 163]

What happened in Croatia is a humanitarian tragedy, first Serbs were declared an unconstitutional people and 5 years after that close to a million Serbs simply disappeared from Croatia. That is a fact you can't deny, and you shouldn't make a parallel with fighting for freedom and rights.

Speaking of minorities 15-20 % (i'm not really sure) of the whole population was Serbian, after the war it was less than 5%. Not even gonna mention that they made a majority in the regions they inhabited.

Please don't twist the story in your favor (at least out of respect for the victims).

Getting side tracked here.

Regarding separation. If you really believe what you said, that a nation has to have historical bases, then how can anyone claim that nationalities such as Bosnian or Monte Negro exist? They didn't exist a 100 years ago, so how did they just spawn? If what you say is true, then how can you make a difference between fighting a rebellion and an invasion, or an anti-terrorist operation for that matter? The UN tells you?

---------- Post added at 18:33 ---------- Previous post was at 18:32 ----------

Oh yes, I know. The NATO aggression on Serbia was started without UN Security Council approval.

P.S. I'm just waiting for an infraction for my heretic views. I'd just like to state that I didn't bring this up.

I think out of all the people on this forum you are absolutely the last to have a right to demand respect for the victims as you have shown with your claims that Srebrenica wasn´t a mass murder.

No they were not declared unconstitutional, they simply lost their status as constitutional nationality. In 1990 only 11,9% of Croatias population was of Serb nationality. So yes they were a minority in Croatia and were treated as such in the new constitution. They still had the same rights as everyone else.

And your numbers are wrong, even in the RSK areas there were only 245.800 Serbs before the war, or 53,2% of the population. So nope, there didn´t dissapear "close to a million Serbs" in Croatia. That most Serbs decided to flee was their own choice since the civilians were guaranteed protection by the Croatian state. But they choose to follow the evacuation order issued by the RSK leadership and were afraid that the evil fashists would kill them all..... :rolleyes: (See the similiarities to Ukraine today?). It is also a fact that most families in the RSK were somehow tied to the war/warcrimes and years of shelling of Croatian towns. Many families fled because they feared legal prosecution of their sons/fathers.

And I´m not twisting this in any way, all this information is freely available on the internet through official sources, for example the ICTY.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Russia took part in the condemnation of Serbian activities in Kosovo ( there are more resolutions in fact ), and didn't veto them, in fact voted in favor of the huge majority of condemning resolutions. So even if Russia didn't participate in the bombings, neither condemned them and acted in the line of the NATO countries ( and most of the world ).

The only one that thought that was an internal affair and that Serbia was acting rightfully was China, hence they abstained in all the resolutions. So you should praise China not Russia.

Russia has already issued different laws limiting the use of the internet. You can check the links we posted previously in this thread. I posted some from RIA Novosti.

As I said, none of the resolutions are in favor of aggression, and Russias involvement in the vote for those resolutions is understandable at that time, however Russia did not accept Kosovo as an independent state, and it didn't play a role in the aggression. Russia was supportive of Serbia for centuries, and even if they voted in favor of the aggression (which they didn't) they would still be considered as a great friend to Serbia.

---------- Post added at 19:43 ---------- Previous post was at 19:41 ----------

I think out of all the people on this forum you are absolutely the last to have a right to demand respect for the victims as you have shown with your claims that Srebrenica wasn´t a mass murder.

No they were not declared unconstitutional, they simply lost their status as constitutional nationality. In 1990 only 11,9% of Croatias population was of Serb nationality. So yes they were a minority in Croatia and were treated as such in the new constitution. They still had the same rights as everyone else.

And your numbers are wrong, even in the RSK areas there were only 245.800 Serbs before the war, or 53,2% of the population. So nope, there didn´t dissapear "close to a million Serbs" in Croatia. That most Serbs decided to flee was their own choice since the civilians were guaranteed protection by the Croatian state. But they choose to follow the evacuation order issued by the RSK leadership and were afraid that the evil fashists would kill them all..... :rolleyes: (See the similiarities to Ukraine today?). It is also a fact that most families in the RSK were somehow tied to the war/warcrimes and years of shelling of Croatian towns. Many families fled because they feared legal prosecution of their sons/fathers.

And I´m not twisting this in any way, all this information is freely available on the internet through official sources, for example the ICTY.

There were 500000 around Knin alone.

And I never said Srebrnica wasn't a mass murder. It was just less than reported and not organised.

[mistyronin 1181]

mmmh...actually the first two UN resolutions are about the security, the last one is about the interim administration.

The Kosovo war was maybe legitim but not legal because there was no UN mandate for the NATO.

The first ones are an express condemn of Serbian activities and ordering them to stop all hostilities.

Here another one:

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1203 ( again no vote against it )

Viewing the conflict as a threat to international peace and security and acting under Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter, the resolution demanded that Serbia and Montenegro immediately and fully comply with the agreements with NATO and the OSCE.

it was stated that any crimes committed against the population were to be investigated by the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia and international assistance to this end was requested.

BTW the 1244 ( voted in favor by Russia ) allowed the presence of foreign militarily troops in Kosovo ( KFOR, of which Russia was part ), what Aleska called "invasion".

Edited October 1, 2014 by MistyRonin

[aleksadragutin 9]

The first ones are an express condemn of Serbian activities and ordering them to stop all hostilities.

Here another one:

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1203 ( again no vote against it )

BTW the 1244 ( voted in favor by Russia ) allowed the presence of foreign militarily troops in Kosovo ( KFOR, of which Russia was part ), what Aleska called "invasion".

http://www.nato.int/docu/review/2004/issue4/graphics/contents/i4_spb.jpg

http://parachuters-russia.narod.ru/un.8.1.1.jpg

I don't expect you to fully understand what happened and what people here went through. There is a big difference with bombing a country (almost in a terrorist fashion) and a peacekeeping military presence.

Let's just agree to end this argument.

[oxmox 73]

The first ones are an express condemn of Serbian activities and ordering them to stop all hostilities.

Here another one:

United Nations Security Council Resolution 1203 ( again no vote against it )

BTW the 1244 ( voted in favor by Russia ) allowed the presence of foreign militarily troops in Kosovo ( KFOR, of which Russia was part ), what Aleska called "invasion".

http://www.nato.int/docu/review/2004/issue4/graphics/contents/i4_spb.jpg

http://parachuters-russia.narod.ru/un.8.1.1.jpg

There was no UN mandate for the NATO bombings.... You can say that this war was legitimate but it was not approved by the United Nations. There was no voting for it since no UN mandate did exist.

The Kosovo Resolution 1244 you are talking about is from the 10th June 1999 and it is about the interime administration which needed of course soldiers on the ground (peacekeeper). The 1203 resolution was again a security resolution about demands and solutions for the Kosovo conflict.

But, the NATO intervention and actually the bombings with around 1000 airplanes did start on the 24th March 1999.

As a side note which is also interesting, these air attacks were one of the biggest in the military history. Alone the US used a higher percentage of their air fleet than in the Vietnam War and Desert Storm operation. (source: wiki link to United States Airforce)

Again, watch the documentary I posted from the national TV with english subs, it reveals some very interesting points and you will understand a lot more what was going on in this time. Furthermore the Internet is filled with infos about it from prestigious sources. The wikipedia link I did link offers a good overview.

Edited October 1, 2014 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

Oxmox in other subjects I may lack some knowledge, but we are talking about an event in which the military unit I was part of, was present there ( we were part of the KFOR ). So I know what happened first hand.

My point was that Russia condemned expressely Serbian activities and implicitly accepted the bombings.

The only Power that didn't took part was China.

But I agree with Aleksa to end the argument.

Edited October 1, 2014 by MistyRonin

[oxmox 73]

Oxmox in other subjects I may lack some knowledge, but we are talking about an event in which the military unit I was part of, was present there ( we were part of the KFOR ). So I know what happened first hand.

My point was that Russia condemned expressely Serbian activities and implicitly the bombings.

The only Power that didn't took part was China.

But I agree with Aleksa to end the argument.

I dont have that much knowledge aswell to discuss this so deeply like we do, but with just some clicks and google search you find a lot of infos. Since you have been in the KFOR you have the knowledge from the local areas, from first hand like you say.

Btw China, their embassy was bombed by accident. :D

Anyway, I did find a new link for the posted documentary without many parst just one link if one of you guys want to watch it.

Alright, back to Ukraine then or IS :)

Edited October 1, 2014 by oxmox

[aleksadragutin 9]

I dont have that much knowledge aswell to discuss this so deeply like we do, but with just some clicks and google search you find a lot of infos. Since you have been in the KFOR you have the knowledge from the local areas, from first hand like you say.

Btw China, their embassy was bombed by accident. :D

Anyway, I did find a new link for the posted documentary without many parst just one link if one of you guys want to watch it.

Alright, back to Ukraine then or IS :)

I watched it when it came out. :)