Ukraine General

[mistyronin 1181]

( BBC ) Ukraine's Poroshenko offers unilateral ceasefire

Ukraine's president has proposed a unilateral ceasefire by his troops to allow pro-Russian separatists to lay down their weapons.

Petro Poroshenko said the peace plan would be implemented "shortly", Interfax-Ukraine news agency reports.

His announcement comes after he held a phone conversation with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

( BBC ) Russia and Ukraine's mystery tanks

[Tonci87 163]

( BBC ) Russia and Ukraine's mystery tanks

The Ukrainian army has similar tanks but its all carry identification signs and are painted in a camouflage pattern - unlike the tanks in the two pictures.

How true is that? Can someone verify?

[negah 26]

How true is that? Can someone verify?

Here are some links with many pictures of the Ukrainian T-64BM and T-84 tanks. I dont see any identification signs, maybe they are "under" the camo pattern or somewhere inside the tank :rolleyes:

http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t64bm_bulat.htm

http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t84.htm

[Tonci87 163]

Here are some links with many pictures of the Ukrainian T-64BM and T-84 tanks. I dont see any identification signs, maybe they are "under" the camo pattern or somewhere inside the tank :rolleyes:

http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t64bm_bulat.htm

http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t84.htm

Why are you lining to T-84? I think we establishedthat they are most likely T-64?

But you can see that they all have a camo painting while the Separatist tanks don´t. So I would like to know if it is standard procedure to give all Ukrainian tanks a camo pattern. If yes, then those tanks are not from Ukraine.

[vilas 477]

showing photos of vehicles from manufacturer website (the same photos are on manufactory website), as made 2 posts above, is pure nonsense - producer show his products only, but vehicle get tactical symbols and other marking when it is put into service, it is obvious

looking at way of paint is also ridiculous - noone sane would allow (after "green men") to enter Ukrainian territory by tank painted in Russian markings, the same Ukraine would not repint tanks just to play Russian and move in column peacefully with rebels trucks ? , what's the problem to repaint vehicle

for sure there is YT movie showing rebels truck with their flag or Russian flag along with one tank , this is YT movie

so far there is no sign of their activity (if they were real battle ready tanks, not phased out , dis-armed vehicles from private collection of one or another rich guy)

Edited June 18, 2014 by vilas

[negah 26]

Why are you lining to T-84? I think we establishedthat they are most likely T-64?

But you can see that they all have a camo painting while the Separatist tanks don´t. So I would like to know if it is standard procedure to give all Ukrainian tanks a camo pattern. If yes, then those tanks are not from Ukraine.

I linked T-84 too just to show more examples of other ukrainian tanks. It seems you have to explain every word here.

As for camo, besides the obvious idea, that you can simply repaint a tank for it to look like a Russian or a Ukrainian one, here are some pics of Ukrainian T-64 tanks in plain green:

http://www.ste.com.ua/upload/t64_41.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/T-64BM_pre_parade.jpg

Note that according to Wikipedia, only about 100 T-64 are modernized to T-64BM version (the one in pics) in Ukraine. Just to prevent the "But they have different ERA than those obviously Russian tanks in the video" comment.

[Tonci87 163]

I linked T-84 too just to show more examples of other ukrainian tanks. It seems you have to explain every word here.

As for camo, besides the obvious idea, that you can simply repaint a tank for it to look like a Russian or a Ukrainian one, here are some pics of Ukrainian T-64 tanks in plain green:

http://www.ste.com.ua/upload/t64_41.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/T-64BM_pre_parade.jpg

Note that according to Wikipedia, only about 100 T-64 are modernized to T-64BM version (the one in pics) in Ukraine. Just to prevent the "But they have different ERA than those obviously Russian tanks in the video" comment.

And on that parade tank we can clearly see markings like they would be used on a ukrainian combat tank...

[negah 26]

And on that parade tank we can clearly see markings like they would be used on a ukrainian combat tank...

Yeah, thats a parade tank for you. They have also white stripes everywhere, I highly doubt they'll send tanks with such paintings into combat where you can as well scream out loud "HERE I AM, KILL ME!!!".

Besides look at those pictures of T-64 Bulat:

https://www.google.de/search?q=t+64+bulat&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=kayhU-e3EdLX7AaQgoGADQ&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=912

That pic is the only one where tanks have actual markings.

[surpher 1]

Here's a tank reportedly captured yesterday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeVr86hg-lM

Source

Some tanks with markings on this page on militaryphotos.net.

[Tonci87 163]

And again it shows that the civilians are the ones who suffer most in every conflict.

[mistyronin 1181]

And again it shows that the civilians are the ones who suffer most in every conflict.

Yes. It's a shame but civilians tend to be the weaker side of the wars.

That's why it annoys me the most, the pro-Russian violent insurrection and those who instigated it. Why would people choose violence over democracy, in fact they not even give a simple chance to democracy... Violence should always be the last resort.

[Tonci87 163]

Yes. It's a shame but civilians tend to be the weaker side of the wars.

That's why it annoys me the most, the pro-Russian violent insurrection and those who instigated it. Why would people choose violence over democracy, in fact they not even give a simple chance to democracy... Violence should always be the last resort.

Yes. They were hyped up by propaganda and look where it got them. The same people crying there are the ones who enthusiastically embraced the Separatist fighters.....What did they expect? If you embrace fighters you also embrace the fight.

[maturin 12]

This is such an absurd conflict. No one in Crimea or the east would have been in the slightest physical danger, nor seen their daily life even change, had the separatists never taken up arms.

If Kiev is run by genocidal fascists, then why is everything calm and peaceful in Kharkiv?!?

[mistyronin 1181]

This is such an absurd conflict.

That is the worst of all. That people are dying and suffering for something that in the rest of the world is solved with democratic ways and talking ( I mean the civilians ).

[vilas 477]

not, history shows that kind asks are not listened and you cannot vote all what majority wants, if voice of few percent of rich counts more

[mistyronin 1181]

not, history shows that kind asks are not listened and you cannot vote all what majority wants, if voice of few percent of rich counts more

Clear example in Scotland or Quebec...

[vilas 477]

and my country as other example , we had to fight for our freedom many times

[mistyronin 1181]

and my country as other example , we had to fight for our freedom many times

You are right. But I was refering mainly to how things are done nowadays.

Obviously in the past things were more "straight forward". Poland is a good example. But thank God nowadays you are a country again :)

[vilas 477]

nowadays also "strong" do not listen to "weak"

just like Russians not listened Chechens which led to terrorist acts, the same same like EU politcians do not want to listen citizens problem with imigrants, the same Ukrainian would not listen to people in Eastern Ukraine who do not want to be in EU,

there is nothing to discuss democratic way in case when 51% wants to do something which 49% hates, or even worse, in some regions it could be that 40% is for and 60% against, but government belongs to those 40% (because they are 51% in rest of country)

etc.

i think that you should not look at whole globe by Scandinavian glasses, because it is biased, whole globe is NOT scandinavia

especially eastern/central europe, asia , africa etc.

noone respects weaker in some areas and only bullet can send message , world is different, different cultures, different religions , different moral values and also different government style, in case of such corrupted country as Ukraine probably will of those people would not be taken under any considerations, cause oligarchs there are only who can say anything,

rulers of the world including "democratic" leaders nowadays in "western culture" also do not listen many times and listen only when they are afraid

Edited June 18, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

i think that you should not look at whole globe by Scandinavian glasses, because it is biased, whole globe is NOT scandinavia especially eastern/central europe, asia , africa etc.

It would be hard for me to look at the world through a Scandinavian perspective; I have never lived in any Scandinavian country ( now I live in Finland that is a Nordic country with a singular culture quite different from any Scandinavian country, more close to Estonia ) and I'm originally from Western Europe.

Pointed that. I understand that obviously there is still some countries that behave like in medieval times like Russia and some African countries. But thank God times are changin' and nowadays more and more countries choose a democratic way to solve problems.

[vilas 477]

once again - how do you want solve democratically problems when as i said , on some territory 51% votes for things that harm 49% ? or country is ruled by party which was voted lets say by 55% while in other region of that country such party get only 20% and 70% is against something but... but 20% there forces 70% ?

can you democratically solve this Eastern Ukraine problem when they do not want to be in EU, while rest of country wants to be in EU ? can you divide country into 2 countries (one in EU another not ) ? some of them fought for such solution, there will be no peace there i can bet , not because Putin sends agents, but in those areas people really do not want to be EU (what you call bigotery, they call morality and vice versa, what you call bad, they call good, it is other culture and values, you cannot democratically have compromise between water and fire)

keep in mind that in Saudi Arabia even if there was no king but democracy, people would vote for their culture , which would not be accepted here, and vice versa,

you cannot keep sheep alive and wolf not hungry, you can only choose which animal you like more because of your personal relations from history

Edited June 18, 2014 by vilas

[Xalteva 10]

more countries choose a democratic way to solve problems.

Democracy ... if democracy is working on some countries ,it's only because the social and economic conditions allow it ! and democracy may not always be the right way to go.

[vilas 477]

Democracy ... if democracy is working on some countries ,it's only because the social and economic conditions allow it ! and democracy may not always be the right way to go.

one of our politicians says that "democracy is system in which 2 bums without education out vote professor who is expert"

yes,

but is there anything better ?

problem is to have REAL democracy with different and free press that informs about disadvantages of something

also REAL damocracy should never take will of 1% over will of 99% (but it happens due to politicall corectness on the west - this is not democratic)

in EU we have problem with democracy cause some people try to say to us that 90% should change life because of 10%

yes, we have problem with democracy, that those 10% do not want to behave like rest but demand their rights above our

but it is much better than what was in past centuries where 1 king family was ruling all

Edited June 18, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

Democracy ... if democracy is working on some countries ,it's only because the social and economic conditions allow it ! and democracy may not always be the right way to go.

You mean like in South Africa with Mandela?

War / Violence is always the failure of the intelligence

BTW a democracy is not the dictatorship of the majority but a system where all parts are represented.

[vilas 477]

War / Violence is always the failure of the intelligence.

oh, c'mon

how do you want to deal with criminals, corrupted etc. rulers who lead one nation against other nation ? how do you want to deal when will of 10% is above will of 90% ?

it is not failure of inteligence, it is issue of not being respected (like some terror acts which were because strong was not listening to weak)

war (apart from imperialistic reasons of rulers) is natural when one doesn't want to respect other or when one forces his will over other,

how do you want to deal with those who plan to kill you or take your property or force you to obey ? by talks ?