European Union (Fictional - ArmA III Setting)

[Ezcoo 47]

But on my humble opinion Finland is quite influenced by Russia on all sides ( military Finland has quite much russian equipment and even the finnish rifle standard calibre is the 7.62 instead of the 5.56 NATO ). The gov is even thinking to add russian as a second language in school for the east side ( instead of swedish ).

On the other hand, population tend to be more prowest and quite anti russian ( specially the older ), maybe as a remainder of WW2 ( were during the winter war tried to invade Finland, issue that continued in the "continuation war" ).

The Russian as second language is being planned because of purely economical reasons (which affects other areas as well naturally), but the defence forces are definitely becoming increasingly compatible with NATO. The cooperation between NATO and defence forces is happening already in pretty large scale, and I think the intensity of it is increasing all the time. The forces are being changed to be more compatible with NATO a bit by bit – when equipment is replaced, it's very often compatible with NATO and the influences of the cooperation can be clearly seen in the trainings as well. For example, I served as medic and a big part of our trainings (and equipment) was based on NATO trainings, and the same applied to many other trainings as well. We even had some "big guys" from Amurikah watching our trainings.

My personal opinion is that it's just a matter of time when we join the NATO. I don't see Finland being on OPFOR side as realistic solution (unless if it was totally overrun by Russia and NATO didn't see it as "worth of the effort" to defend it).

Edited September 16, 2013 by Ezcoo

[13islucky 10]

Personally, I've never shot any G36 in real life, so I can only speak from that what I talked about with my father. He said that they were always taught to double-tap while using the 5.56 because the cartridge does not have much man-stopping-power and just goes through the target at high speed.

Not sure if it's the same with other ARs using the 5.56 calibre.

The terminal ballistics of 5.56 are interesting. From what I can tell unless you're using a 20 inch barrel (like the M16 series) the damage it deals to the body cuts off drastically above 50m, so double tapping is a reasonable technique. Just don't mag dump, or you'll possibly melt the damn thing.

[jagdtiger74 10]

@OP oh I thought you wanted to know some background on what is actually going on in NATO to adopt your scenario?!

The 5,56 Nato is 5,56 x 45mm and the civil version well known as .223 Remington. The advantage of the round is that one round weights approx half than the 7,62 NATO (7,62 x 51mm or .308Win). Considering this fact for a hole army makes a huge difference in logistics. One Soldier carrying 320 Rounds in 5,56 Nato carries 3,5 kg in 7,62 NATO its more like 7,6kg. The same applies for the whole supply chain of getting ammo moved to the troops. You can generally speaking bring double the rounds to the troops with the logistics in place or use the freed space to move other stuff. That was one of the reasons why Germany changed caliber.

Now the 5,56 NATO round has a huge disadvantage over 7,62 NATO and that is punch. 5,56 NATO has an E0 of 1800Joule compared to 3500Joule E0 of the 7,62NATO. These paper values very reported over and over again by the troops to cause massive problems. Lack of stopping power as well of deflection of bullets by small obstacles and nearly no possibility to penetrate harder targets. The same was reported in widespread for the civil .223 Rem from Hunters that used it, where the bullets were deflected from grass leaves and small branches. It is therefore not popular for hunting bigger game like deer. Even though the bullet speed is good and precision very good the target ballistics are not.

[jinzor 31]

@OP oh I thought you wanted to know some background on what is actually going on in NATO to adopt your scenario?!

The 5,56 Nato is 5,56 x 45mm and the civil version well known as .223 Remington. The advantage of the round is that one round weights approx half than the 7,62 NATO (7,62 x 51mm or .308Win). Considering this fact for a hole army makes a huge difference in logistics. One Soldier carrying 320 Rounds in 5,56 Nato carries 3,5 kg in 7,62 NATO its more like 7,6kg. The same applies for the whole supply chain of getting ammo moved to the troops. You can generally speaking bring double the rounds to the troops with the logistics in place or use the freed space to move other stuff. That was one of the reasons why Germany changed caliber.

Now the 5,56 NATO round has a huge disadvantage over 7,62 NATO and that is punch. 5,56 NATO has an E0 of 1800Joule compared to 3500Joule E0 of the 7,62NATO. These paper values very reported over and over again by the troops to cause massive problems. Lack of stopping power as well of deflection of bullets by small obstacles and nearly no possibility to penetrate harder targets. The same was reported in widespread for the civil .223 Rem from Hunters that used it, where the bullets were deflected from grass leaves and small branches. It is therefore not popular for hunting bigger game like deer. Even though the bullet speed is good and precision very good the target ballistics are not.

So, based on this, do you think it's likely that the 5.56mm will be replaced? In ArmA III, NATO seem to have replaced it with a 6.5mm caseless ammo type (fictional?). Do you think European countries in NATO would adopt the same, or go for their own type of ammo (e.g. their own 6.5mm, or maybe a 7mm or 7.62mm)?

[xendance 3]

I don't know how this is gonna sound, first just say that though I've been living for a year in Finland but I'm from another EU country ( which BTW is inside NATO, and were I served as professional in the military ), so its just a personal opinion.

But on my humble opinion Finland is quite influenced by Russia on all sides ( military Finland has quite much russian equipment and even the finnish rifle standard calibre is the 7.62 instead of the 5.56 NATO ). The gov is even thinking to add russian as a second language in school for the east side ( instead of swedish ).

On the other hand, population tend to be more prowest and quite anti russian ( specially the older ), maybe as a remainder of WW2 ( were during the winter war tried to invade Finland, issue that continued in the "continuation war" ).

BTW about the Patria in the NATO, it has already been tested for the USMC and the US ordered more than one thousand vehicles.

I would argue that we use 7.62 instead of 5.56 because of the trees. Afaik 5.56 doesn't penetrate trees that well while 7.62 does. And if you've been to Finland you'll know why that is relevant ;)

[HorbeySpector 164]

Would be nice to see some LBX Tactical Camo being used by these units! :rolleyes:

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[mistyronin 1181]

I would argue that we use 7.62 instead of 5.56 because of the trees. Afaik 5.56 doesn't penetrate trees that well while 7.62 does. And if you've been to Finland you'll know why that is relevant ;)

True, Finland is an endless two sides road in a flat forest :rolleyes: ( I miss mountains! ).

Well my theory is that Finland use 7.62, cuz the most probably aggressor is Russia ( I don't see the swedes invading anyone, you know what is said in Finland about them :p ); so it would be easy to use their own magazines against them ( and cheaper ).

Going back to the topic and having in mind all the economic and trade between the US and Europe, a 6.5mm caliber for the improved hk g36a2, would be cool. Maybe also a stock like this:

Edited September 16, 2013 by MistyRonin

[jagdtiger74 10]

@Jinzor you never know ;-) Germany for example started issuing the HK G28 to the troops in Afghanistan. It is in .308 / 7,62x51. But it will not replace the G36. It is an addition to the squad/platoon level equipment. So you will have G36/G28 /HKMG4. At the same time MG3s are still in use and G8/HK21 are also used. These are both old designs around the 7,62x51 whereas the HKMG4 is 5,56NATO. I cant really comment on other countries plans but as I said before Equipment is not mandatory in NATO and even if it would be countries will find a way around it to full fill their needs. On a side note, the original plans for development for the now G36 had a different approach, the G11 which was one of the development steps inbetween the G3 and the G36 was based around 4,9mm round and the first prototypes of the G36 were tested with a 4,5x36mm round. With these rounds the rife was shooting 1100 rpm !!! But with the end of the cold war germany opted for a G36 in 5,56 NATO. For the near future I think 5,56NATO will be the standard, since so many of Europe's Armies have large amounts of these. And it should be noted that implementing a new rifle easily takes 10 or more years with development, testing and then integrating. Let alone the cost factor. In the long run caseless might be the way.

[jinzor 31]

Based on my own research and the info you guys have given me, I've quickly made a very, very basic concept (just image manipulation) of what this fictional, yet believable (as possible), G36 would look like (I'll use it to start modeling from this perspective using Blender). I could not think of a modification for the overheating problem for the current G36 though.

Tell me what you think. If anything doesn't make sense or feels a little odd, I'm all ears. If you want to think up of a name for it (it can't be "G36" due to the licensing and is to keep with the tradition of different named weapons in ArmA III) then that will save me a little bit of time as well.

Reference for modelling:

1. 6.5mm caseless NATO ammunition - casket magazine (same magazine as the MX series for the current NATO faction in ArmA III, can share ammo. I can just use the default MX magazine and give it a different texture)

2. Emergency ejection port (a way to keep the current ejection port)

3. Slightly bigger barrel (for 6.5mm ammo) - fits default ArmA III silencer

4. Adjustable stock, non-folding (not too sure about this one, roughly the same one that the MX series uses in ArmA III and is adjustable)

5. Rail system - fits default scopes/site + mountable lights/lasers

6. Hand grip

Edited September 16, 2013 by Jinzor

[mistyronin 1181]

It looks really cool to me, the only part that is a bit odd is the casket magazine, maybe a bit less opacity? More transparency I mean :)

Fore the overheating maybe some squared holes like in the MG3 ( its the ww2 mg42 tuned up now in service in Germany and Spain ). Don't know how it would look though.

Or like this barrel cover ( The helical vents are engineered to maximize air flow to prevent overheating and to reduce the overall weight. )

Edited September 16, 2013 by MistyRonin

[jinzor 31]

It looks really cool to me, the only part that is a bit odd is the casket magazine, maybe a bit less opacity? More transparency I mean :)

I won't start modelling until tomorrow, when I've got some feedback.

Reason why I chose to use the MX rifle's magazine is to use the same ammo type; 6.5mm caseless. But yeah, I know it looks kind of odd. I could either keep it the same but push it into the weapon a bit more to reduce opacity, or I could use a totally different type of magazine (not sure what kind, though. Any suggestions?).

EDIT: Oh, you mean being able to see the bullets in the magazine when you say "opacity"? Like the magazines in this image?

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100619062511/deadliestwarrior/images/d/d6/P3qqkvk6f5w8fyunjsse.jpg

Edited September 16, 2013 by Jinzor

[mistyronin 1181]

EDIT: Oh, you mean being able to see the bullets in the magazine when you say "opacity"? Like the magazines in this image?

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100619062511/deadliestwarrior/images/d/d6/P3qqkvk6f5w8fyunjsse.jpg

Exactly, I mean its cool to take the same of the mx but a bit tuned to keep with the hk design. Btw, I don't know if the photo that I have shown before about the barril cover is possible to be made in A3, maybe too many pols?

[jinzor 31]

Exactly, I mean its cool to take the same of the mx but a bit tuned to keep with the hk design. Btw, I don't know if the photo that I have shown before about the barril cover is possible to be made in A3, maybe too many pols?

I'll give the magazine opacity a shot.

And yeah, I'd like to use that barrel cover, but my first impression is that it would use too many polys. I'll see if I can achieve it as low as possible, but don't get your hopes up.

[antoineflemming 14]

Would be nice to see some LBX Tactical Camo being used by these units! :rolleyes:

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The useless camo pattern created for Medal of Honor Warfighter? Yeah, ok.

[mistyronin 1181]

Yeah camo it's another interesting subject.

I've just had an idea ( maybe a crazy one ), but what about some kind of "european multicam", the standard its to bright for european forests, but what about a mixture of the german camo and the french woodland ?

[zervostyrd 10]

Well my theory is that Finland use 7.62, cuz the most probably aggressor is Russia ( I don't see the swedes invading anyone, you know what is said in Finland about them :p ); so it would be easy to use their own magazines against them ( and cheaper ).

My theory is that it's because the half forced on treaty they signed with the USSR. Hence why they also use much of former PACT equipment blended with a few domestically designed stuffz as well as Swedish stuff and only recently taken to use NATO things like those F 18s and Leo 2a4s (both post Cold War procurements)... However they can switch out PACT designed vehicles today without much debacle. (although some are quite good traversing the northern parts of the country MT-LB's per example, as Swedes also taken to use). Any way, switching out the main rifle cartridge is just silly, Enourmus cost for honestly low gain. They probably rather stay with their current caliber. Everyone knows it works, there's plenty of it, and there's otherwise no really good argument for doing so as far as I can see.

Besides that, I doubt that Finland really wants to get to comfy with Russia today. Back in the CW they weren't exactly best palls, nor were they puppets (although, there's no doubt that USSR would have ROFL stomped Soumi conventionally no matter how much Sisu they have.) The treaty they signed speciffically pointed out that Finland was free to defend itself from any invasionist force (including USSR) But they were obliged to halt any "Offensive operation towards the USSR through Finnish terretory by Germany and/or it's allies" (Fun considering that the USSR were allied to the DDR :confused:)

As for that "you know what they say about us (swedes) in Finland. YA thanks WE know! (We're with the French in "being picked on" for "Being cowards" but we suffer even more because WE actually HAD a Tank that COULD drive as fast forward as it could reverse...(with a rear facing driver too)) BUT, then again, as is the case about France, there's a lot of things to consider but it's so much easier to just call us Rats and poke us.. :cool: (I mean Ruotsi and Rats see the connection?:p)

Anyway on the subject of EU armed forces.. How about the CV 90? IIRC it's the European designed and manufactured -tracked- IFV that is used by most countries in the EU, Doesn't have to be the 40mm version though. Leopard 2(variant) is given as MBT. I do however wonder what a good AA system could be? Gepard? Realizing of course that these things are a bit further down the production line.

I'd also want to wish the project luck..

Edited September 16, 2013 by zervostyrd

[mistyronin 1181]

As for that "you know what they say about us (swedes) in Finland. YA thanks WE know! (We're with the French in "being picked on" for "Being cowards" but we suffer even more because WE actually HAD a Tank that COULD drive as fast forward as it could reverse...(with a rear facing driver too)) BUT, then again, as is the case about France, there's a lot of things to consider but it's so much easier to just call us Rats and poke us.. :cool: (I mean Ruotsi and Rats see the connection?:p)

You misunderstood me, they don't call you rats or cowards, how I would say, they call you... ejem just some hints: "too sensitive", "too stylish", well like the Lord of the Ring elves... a bit "feminine" :rolleyes:

Maybe its how swedish sound to a monotonic finn.

Anyway from my side, I do like Sweden and Gustavus Adolphus, even... Jag talar lite svenska

BTW I like the CV90.

Edited September 16, 2013 by MistyRonin

[zervostyrd 10]

Ah that one too :p

Yeah thought in the context of the Finnish winter war as well as the Continuation war. There's a bit of resentment towards us, because of the fact that we had a Pact which we didn't honour (the one where we were supposed to declare war on the USSR when they attacked Finland :/) As well as denying Brittish and French troops to occupy our northern mineral deposits, thus denying them to help Finland fight of the USSR...

Oh and I can swear on Finnish! :cool:

[mistyronin 1181]

Yeah thought in the context of the Finnish winter war as well as the Continuation war. There's a bit of resentment towards us, because of the fact that we had a Pact which we didn't honour (the one where we were supposed to declare war on the USSR when they attacked Finland :/) As well as denying Brittish and French troops to occupy our northern mineral deposits, thus denying them to help Finland fight of the USSR...

Well, its important to remember that there were lots of swedish volunteers that fought with the finns, and Sweden helped Finland economically.

Returning to the multicam european, the swedish camo could also be inserted in the mixture:

The desert variant... ( ok its from Norway but, she has the point ).

And how could look the full uniform with gadgets?

http://www.revistaarmas.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/COMFUT-4.jpg (327 kB)

( sorry there was no nice girl for the last one )

Edited September 16, 2013 by MistyRonin

[zervostyrd 10]

"Well, its important to remember that there were lots of swedish volunteers that fought with the finns, and Sweden helped Finland economically. "

Well as exposed and damaged they got I consider it understandable though. And really most people, here anyway, aren't offended...

The French certainly did resistance worthy the spelling... They still get dung thrown their way.. I leave it at that..

I like to say that considering that the soldiers are supposed(?) to be deployed on Altis, Woodland might be a bit out of place. I'd check what the Italians are wearing for example:

http://www.androidsteam.com/IMG/gallery/softair_358.jpg (249 kB)

The Dark green might not suit itself in a southern European setting.

[AveryTheKitty 2626]

Imo:

The main rifle should be the awesome MK20, using weapons such as the Glock P07, MK200, NLAW's, and MK18 ABR's.

The camouflage of choice should be the British MTP, using equipment such as MICH's or ECH's.

Vehicles like the Strider and Slammer, and of course the Gorgon and Panther. Also helicopters like the Mohawk, and Comanche.

[jinzor 31]

Imo:

The main rifle should be the awesome MK20, using weapons such as the Glock P07, MK200, NLAW's, and MK18 ABR's.

The camouflage of choice should be the British MTP, using equipment such as MICH's or ECH's.

Vehicles like the Strider and Slammer, and of course the Gorgon and Panther. Also helicopters like the Mohawk, and Comanche.

Maybe, but I'd rather try to create my own, unique stuff which makes sense rather than re-use already existing models (which makes the mod look as if it was lazily made) and which don't, in my opinion, really fit a European faction.

[AveryTheKitty 2626]

At least the MK20 and Strider (Fennek)?

[mistyronin 1181]

At least the MK20 and Strider (Fennek)?

I agree that the Fennek should/could be in. But the Mk20 it's not even close to represent EU, only one of its countries uses it ( Slovenia ).

BTW a video about the EURO forces ( to motivate a bit ):

Edited September 16, 2013 by MistyRonin

[AveryTheKitty 2626]

Belgium. Poland. Possibly plenty more nations in the future.