AH-64D Apache Longbow for ArmA2 by Nodunit and Franze

[BeachAV8R 0]

I didn't plan out the training missions in the best way; unfortunately, when you're the scripter you tend to forget that some people may need more guidance than what you think is enough. Usually both fire bottles are sufficient to put out fires, it's only very rarely that they fail to do so! The training campaign is also optional and doesn't have to be played in sequence either.

Haha..actually I think the training missions are VERY well done. They have great guidance as far as where to look in the cockpit and the voiceovers are quite well done. No complaints from me. To be clear though - when you press the yellow illuminated FIRE button, isn't that like a firewall shutoff valve that is supposed to kill that side engine? I notice that pressing that button the engine for the respective side continues to run. Just wondering if that is an ARMA thing that can't be worked around. I'd expect that after hitting that button that torque would be limited to half power (50%)...

Essentially, the pilot and gunner are restricted to one 'optic' viewpoint; that is, they can't toggle between TADS or PNVS respectively. The game does have a camera function but the problem then becomes when you use a scripted camera, you lose all control. This is unfortunate as it prevents us from doing fun things like fly by cameras, missile cameras, target cameras, etc. The PiP capability of TKOH and ArmA3 help somewhat but they are still imperfect solutions.

No worries. I realize it is a land combat sim with vehicles sort of put in as it has evolved. I hope BIS moving forward starts to considering building in those camera presets. It would help them sell games with all the great clips and movies that could be made (more easily)..

That being said, being able to use both seats at one time wasn't something we experimented a lot with. We only extensively tested with two crew integration; a huge part of this was making sure that everything would function properly in a multiplayer environment, which is finiky in the ArmA/FP series. What ended up being released was not nearly the amount we had planned to release.

Again, no apologies necessary since it is quite remarkable what you guys have done! I'm thinking of pitching the idea of an article on the add-on to my editor at PC Pilot.

I don't think we can do that with the way the game handles the various LOD's and viewpoints, there is also the problem that as a pilot if you did have the co pilots optic you'd still run into the problem of controlling both the helo and gun at the same time.

Best that could be done for the pilot is most likely to have a toggle between FLIR and something like the CPG.

No problem - I know it must not be easy to do or even possible at all. Indeed - trying to man the CPG while the AI flies can be quite a rollercoaster ride.. <g>

To the lab!

Oh dear..look what I've gone and done now! <g> I'll provide the coffee and moral support.. <haha..>

BeachAV8R

[franze 196]

Haha..actually I think the training missions are VERY well done. They have great guidance as far as where to look in the cockpit and the voiceovers are quite well done. No complaints from me. To be clear though - when you press the yellow illuminated FIRE button, isn't that like a firewall shutoff valve that is supposed to kill that side engine? I notice that pressing that button the engine for the respective side continues to run. Just wondering if that is an ARMA thing that can't be worked around. I'd expect that after hitting that button that torque would be limited to half power (50%)...

Yeah, that's the way it's supposed to work in the real world. ArmA only sees one engine though and I never got around to how I might script single engine operation. TKOH already has that built in of course. But basically: Press the illuminated FIRE button to get the RDY indicator, then press the primary or reserve discharge buttons.

No worries. I realize it is a land combat sim with vehicles sort of put in as it has evolved. I hope BIS moving forward starts to considering building in those camera presets. It would help them sell games with all the great clips and movies that could be made (more easily)..

They've tried to do that with ArmA3 to some extent but it's not as robust as we'd all hope for.

Again, no apologies necessary since it is quite remarkable what you guys have done! I'm thinking of pitching the idea of an article on the add-on to my editor at PC Pilot.

No problem - I know it must not be easy to do or even possible at all. Indeed - trying to man the CPG while the AI flies can be quite a rollercoaster ride.. <g>

Oh dear..look what I've gone and done now! <g> I'll provide the coffee and moral support.. <haha..>

BeachAV8R

The AI's piloting ability leaves a lot to be desired, that is a fact. I've tried a lot of scripting commands to try and get the pilots to do certain things but they seem to be ineffective on the whole. At least in TKOH and ArmA3 the gunner can take control of the helicopter if he's the group commander. One of the key things we were trying to do was prove that ArmA could be used to make a halfway decent vehicle game/'simulation' beyond ground/infantry, just that doing so took some work and creativity to attain the goal.

I think tomorrow I will do a writeup of what the original goals were and how far we had intended to go a few years back when we started all this. Something for me to do at work. :o

[franze 196]

Ok, this will be a somewhat lengthy post.

When we first started this, we had planned:

- A minimum of 5 variations of AH-64A and AH-64D.

- Campaigns for AH-64D, AH-64D Block III/AH-64E, and AH-64A.

- A kind of career hub a la Longbow 2 that would track score, awards, etc.

- A minimum of two terrains, 40x40km in size.

- Various hostile/friendly units, such as SA-9, SA-6, Patriot, etc. to fill gaps in ArmA2's lineup.

- Expansions into other variants of the Apache like Israeli, Dutch, United Kingdom, etc. and associated 'mini-campaigns' for them.

- Much more vast single and multiplayer missions - I didn't really accomplish what I'd hoped to with the ones included.

- In depth, as close as the A2 engine could get, simulation of Apache systems - essentially, aiming for more than 'tab lock' that virtually all A2 vehicles use. Immersion was the key word.

As we found out, these were (and are) lofty goals for a 2-3 man development team. What we ended up with:

- The terrains were a BIG one. Making new terrains is a massive undertaking, even if one uses 'degraded' flight simulator details. I got as far as making a basic terrain and a few tree models before I decided it would take too much work to get to the point we needed.

- Making just one variant of the AH-64D proved to be a huge challenge, much less 5. Even then, we technically have a Block I, not a Block II, given certain features.

- Doing a set of campaign missions is not an easy task. While I had hoped for 30 mission campaigns, reality sets in that going with an 'impersonal' Longbow 2 style campaign leaves a huge swath of scripting work with mission generation in a semi-dynamic campaign. This is why the included 10 mission campaign became chained together as it was. I would call it a Comanche Gold style campaign. The training missions/campaign was a lot of work as well, especially for Froggyluv who voiced a huge number of lines as the instructor. I think he did a great job at being the clear, understandable voice for these missions.

- Making additional low-detail units is a lot of work, too. I tried recycling some very old Mi-28s that I built in the FP era but in the end I never really used them. Given this, I never recycled the units I made to be used with the Su-17 in ArmA, primarily because they were unfinished and didn't really apply to helicopter operations.

- Around the start of development, I ended up going back to college part time with a full time job. This put a huge damper on the work I could get done, especially scripting. Try as I might, scripting wizardry seems to come best at midnight through 0300 rather than 9-to-5. This is difficult to accomplish when your job dictates a 2100 bed time and a 0500 wakeup and college work often takes weekends.

- Some features were probably way too ambitious and poorly planned. Engine startup is one of them as ArmA2 doesn't have much beyond 'press Q to start'. I'm still not pleased with the mechanic we have to use to bring it all together in ArmA2 for complex startups. I'm also not pleased with the limitations we had to work with to get our digital displays in place; NouberNou has indicated that an external DLL system might allow us more flexibility there, but I haven't looked into that much. As it stands, we used model.cfg and hiddenselections to get where we needed to go and that limited us to the 256 bone limit. Performance of the addon suffers as a result of our high bone count which hovers around 200 bones. I had planned to combat this by trying some virtual displays and a lite or limited model that would cut the bone count down to essentials, but never got to it. Some immersion would also be broken this way.

- The automatic gun and rocket system leaves a lot to be desired. Yes, it works to some degree, but my ballistic arithmetic leaves a lot to be desired. The scripting doesn't properly take into account all variables that apply to a gun or rocket solution and has some very problematic issues, especially at long range.

- Missile guidance still isn't functioning the way I'd like it to. It works to an acceptable level but in BVR conditions it's more troublesome than I'd like.

- Thermals! Holy cow, this is a sore spot. Yes, they work to some degree... But not like the real thing! Only really good for picking out targets rather than pilotage. Unfortunately we can't do much about this, which led to compromises such as NVG operations.

- Multiplayer integration isn't as good as I'd like. Target sharing in the current public version is bugged (fixed in development build) and remote SAL designation is difficult to use. Beyond that I had wanted to do other things like being able to view a remote Apache's TADS viewpoint that I never got around to.

- ASE/missile defense did not pan out as I'd hoped. Part of this is the SA-19 in the game is a bit odd, having an incredible velocity and hit potential and it's the only radar guided SAM in the game by default. A better prototype was in the Su-17 - SA-6 integration I did in ArmA, but that would have required a number of custom SAM systems to properly do and I was unwilling to make or modify the existing SA-19 to fit that. In basic terms, the default missile guidance used by BIS is a simplified, pure pursuit mechanic (I like to call it 'lag pursuit) that makes for inaccurate missiles, so BIS made up for that by making the SA-19 missiles faster.

In the end, while we accomplished a lot, we didn't go as far as I wanted to. I'd like to think that we did prove you can make a very good and in depth vehicle in ArmA2 if you're willing to put a little bit of effort into it, but it is by no means the ideal way to go if you're looking for a higher level of fidelity such as DCS. On the other hand, what gets traded for fidelity is made up for by immersion; the flexibility of ArmA2's editor and scripting allows for scenarios to be put together that aren't possible in a simulation like DCS.

One thing that always bugs me about a lot of addons out there is the creators put a lot of work into the addon but virtually nothing beyond that. It's handed out in a 'here, do what you want' fashion and there's a lack of context. This isn't exactly bad, but I believe that an addon should include a few scenarios to provide context and show what it can do. Given that scenarios operate on the same basis as a lot of addon scripting, it doesn't take much to make a basic mission. The single mission "Ground Attack" I included is like this, as it's based on the old "Ground Attack" missions from FP. A simple 'go here, blow up targets, come back' can make a world of difference for an addon. Perhaps that may be asking too much for the typical addon maker but I believe it is worth it in the long run.

[noubernou 77]

You've both done amazing work!

I wish I had more time so I could volunteer my services. :( In regards to SAMs I was messing around with my SA-15 implementation last night, and that does have lead pursuit built into the guidance.

[BeachAV8R 0]

That's a great summary of where you were and how you got to this point. I can tell you, working within the framework of ARMA2, it is astonishing what you've done. I think the start-up, while simplified, is quite good (love the sound of those engines winding up)..

Regarding the content - I just played "Ground Attack" as sort of a "graduation exercise" after the training. Whoa! I had my hands full and in the end it ranked up there in the top virtual missions I've ever flown (and I've been flying flight sims for 25 years or so!)..

Check it out here: Apache Diary - Ground Attack

Fantastic stuff, and can't wait to give the campaign a whirl... Thanks again for the summary.

BeachAV8R

---------- Post added at 19:56 ---------- Previous post was at 18:00 ----------

Speaking of content - I wonder if anyone made any AH-64 missions for the Kunar, Afghanistan map? Gawd..what a beautiful map with intriguing topography.. Here are some pics I took flying around in it today:

Kunar screens

BeachAV8R

[franze 196]

That's a pretty sweet AAR! FWIW the CPG can put out fires as well, the fire panel is on the upper left hand side of the dash.

I don't think anyone has made any missions for Clafghan/Kunar, Afghanistan, though one of my testers made a simple mission a couple years back on the map.

[chortles 263]

This may sound really, really odd as an observation from the AAR, but in any dedicated helo sim what happened "just shy of the base" would have been game over... what happened next however is sheer Arma. :D (Or as you described it, "the beauty of a sandbox sim" instead of a study sim.)

[BeachAV8R 0]

This may sound really, really odd as an observation from the AAR, but in any dedicated helo sim what happened "just shy of the base" would have been game over... what happened next however is sheer Arma. :D (Or as you described it, "the beauty of a sandbox sim" instead of a study sim.)

Absolutely - that is what is so fantastic about flying stuff in the ARMA series. First person interactions have always been the dream of many of us combat flight simmers, and ARMA does it quite well. Things like rescuing downed pilots and crews, repairing, recovery, etc..are all possible with creative mission designers or open environments (as long as the tools/assets are available on the map). I wish I were capable of working with the ARMA mission editor because I have some great ideas for missions, I'm just not smart enough to build them. The fact that you can have soldiers ride on the sides of the Apache for an emergency extraction - coupled with an enemy overrunning at mountain-top FOB - ah..you see where I'm going with that? <g> I'm guessing we probably won't see a whole lot of mission work for ARMA2 now that many people have moved on to ARMA3. Personally, I just can't get into the future weapons in ARMA3, so I'll have to wait for a total conversion or something for ARMA3 back to current day order of battle before I really adopt it.

By the way - if you liked that "Sandbox" AAR - I had another one from the Take On Helicopters campaign that works out similarly, although it has more of a scripted/directed action. It was the mission where you get shot down while on the psy-ops mission: Leaflet Drop AAR

BeachAV8R

[pawelkpl 29]

Hi All, any chance to update this awesome mod ? Since last Arma 3 update there is no gun sound... Thank You in advance.

[franze 196]

There is no longer any support for this addon in ArmA3.

[pawelkpl 29]

There is no longer any support for this addon in ArmA3.

This is the very sad story...

[Sacha 'Voodoo' Oropeza 230]

Would be great if someone takes care of the AH64D on A3... I don't wanna stick out with this bird... Even if there are still unfixable issues as far as I know, I bet someone have the skills to put sounds back on the AH64D isn't it ?... Please...

[nodunit 397]

Hard to say, Franze said he'd be willing to look past the gun control problem but the big killed is how much interaction we lose with adding physX so that it flies correctly.

In this video imagine that the spheres are the points at which you interact with the aircraft, with helicopterX the points continuously deviate away from you , whereas helicopter class they remain perfectly in spot.

This is also likely what is causing the new friction sliding problems, but to do that we'd have to forgo interactivity, which means a crap ton or button presses or the most nightmarish action menu you have ever seen.

It gets worse because the apache isn't the only one of our arsenal that suffers, there were ideas for a CH-47F, CH-53K, and even a Mi-26T with full sling loading and a glass cockpit comparable to our apache but that would suffer the same issues thanks to the problem with modeltoworld.

We thought about experimenting with an abrams tank not only with an interior but an interactive interior where you use buttons and switches to change weapon trajectory, load type, fire solutions, giving the commander a map display along with PIP and more...furthermore I had hoped we could experiment with the first interactive civilian vehicle with opening doors by handles, maybe starting ignition by clicking on the ignition key, perhaps windshield wipers and so on... maybe more damage such as deforming the hood before losing it, crumbling the body some, warping the bumpers, a loose or ripped off door..just an experiment to see how far it can be taken but now...all of that gone.

Edited July 18, 2014 by NodUnit

[pawelkpl 29]

Hard to say, Franze said he'd be willing to look past the gun control problem but the big killed is how much interaction we lose with adding physX so that it flies correctly.

In this video imagine that the spheres are the points at which you interact with the aircraft, with helicopterX the points continuously deviate away from you , whereas helicopter class they remain perfectly in spot.

This is also likely what is causing the new friction sliding problems, but to do that we'd have to forgo interactivity, which means a crap ton or button presses or the most nightmarish action menu you have ever seen.

It gets worse because the apache isn't the only one of our arsenal that suffers, there were ideas for a CH-47F, CH-53K, and even a Mi-26T with full sling loading and a glass cockpit comparable to our apache but that would suffer the same issues thanks to the problem with modeltoworld.

We thought about experimenting with an abrams tank not only with an interior but an interactive interior where you use buttons and switches to change weapon trajectory, load type, fire solutions, giving the commander a map display along with PIP and more...furthermore I had hoped we could experiment with the first interactive civilian vehicle with opening doors by handles, maybe starting ignition by clicking on the ignition key, perhaps windshield wipers and so on... maybe more damage such as deforming the hood before losing it, crumbling the body some, warping the bumpers, a loose or ripped off door..just an experiment to see how far it can be taken but now...all of that gone.

Voted for that issue +1.

[noubernou 77]

but now...all of that gone.

Yep, this issue has really put the kibosh on a lot of great ideas.

[BeachAV8R 0]

So I wonder how BIS is going to do their add-on helicopters DLC for ARMA3..? Do they have some special tools and access to flight model stuff that you guys can't do?

[franze 196]

Supposedly, BIS will be taking key parts of the Take On Helicopters FM and incorporating it into the DLC. Unfortunately for us, the TKOH FM is a hard coded BIS-only operation.

[BeachAV8R 0]

This is some video that I shot last night while flying some of the single mission "Ground Attack" with the Nodunit & Franze AH-64D Apache mod for ARMA2.

You can see the training AARs: HERE!

This mission is just a single mission that has you going out to destroy a convoy. The video isn't exhaustive (or all that well flown) but shows the engine start-up, flying from the cockpit and flying from the CP/G view. I didn't do a lot of button pushing in the cockpit because mostly I was just trying to show the immersive feeling of flight that ARMA2 does when you are talking about low and slow stuff (helicopters!). It is very good at that. Flight model is OK. When you are flying at the CP/G, you will see you don't have a lot of control over where he flies and how he gets there. You really have to micromanage him when you get close to the action. You have to either use the view and direction commands to point and send him where you want to go (including lining up a heading for an attack or hover) and altitude has a tendency to balloon up if he is moving really fast. Eventually he will drop down into a hover, but it can leave you exposed. It would be nice to have some sort of basic (left right, up down) control over the AI gunner, but you just have to be careful and realize this is probably best flown with a human pilot (I haven't tried that).

I was flying a non-radar Apache in this mission. In other missions you will have a Longbow - so you have a radar and FCR and all that good stuff. I didn't mess with ASE settings or anything else..just pretty much designating with the TADS. Of interest is you'll occasionally see me switch targets while the Hellfire is in flight and it is pretty cool to see multiple missiles come down from different directions on the target. You'll also notice what appears to be a disconnect between the gun and the rounds "splashing", but if you take a look at the engagement range - that is the reason for the long delay between firing and rounds on target - 2.0 on the IHADDS, I'm not sure if that means 2000 meters or 2.0 miles. Either way, it explains the lag between firing and rounds hitting and the very wide dispersal. Still pretty damaging to soft skin targets though..

Sorry I didn't turn the music down in game..I actually don't even know if I heard it in the heat of the moment.

You'll also see me crash a couple of times when the enemy got off return fire at me. Learning the Apache and learning how to use it within the constraints of ARMA2 is pretty challenging, but rewarding too.

Best watched in 1080 obviously:

BeachAV8R

[franze 196]

Target range is always in metric. Default TADS estimated range is indicated by an A, FCR range by R, and laser range by a *. The gun mechanics for the CPG are quirky due to some issues with how BI handles weapon aiming; basically, you have the BI manual range setting (kept in place for compatibility reasons) with TADS, the automatic mode, the HMD mode, and the fixed mode. TADS mode points the gun where TADS is looking but doesn't correct for range, target motion, etc.; while automatic mode makes a guess as to where the target is going to be based on distance, motion, etc. - for the CPG this only works when in heads down or if a target is acquired; HMD mode for the CPG only works when heads down. Both the automatic and HMD modes require the manual range setting to be 0 or 300.

ASE doesn't work against enemies using manually aimed weapons like guns; in "Ground Attack" there are no air defenses, just the vehicles with their own weapons. They will happily shoot at you with anything and everything they have.

[pipyn1970 19]

Hi Guys, im sorry if this has been asked before but as im only on page 36 at the mo, i dont remember seeing it.

Anyway, a massive thank you for this bird. Its amazing.

Ive tried it this morning & i understand its not being fully ported over to arma 3 but i was hoping someone might help me with these few problems im having:

1) when i spool up she rocks & slides loads & sometimes flips over. - Is there a fix for this or how do i stop it myself?

2) Without using auto hover (trying to not use it), i cant keep her at all near stable - any suggestions?

3) When i try to land i almost always get the sliding drama again & crash while on the ground. - same as number 1.

Until i can sort this out i cant use it in my arma 3 missions.

Many thanks in advance

I remember I added a chinook mod a short while back that was ported from arma 2. It had the same sliding problem I was getting here. A few of us reported it to the author who fixed it. I think he said the problem was the codes are different regarding how the vehicle has contact with the ground. Anyway the good news is that the chinook no longer slides while spooling up or down.

I hope this info helps.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Pipyn1970

[nodunit 397]

I'm assuming it is deltagamer, I will send them a PM to inquire as to this change, but as of now official support is more or less canned so I can't promise anything.

If it's a a physX thing then there is nothing that can be done, though to be honest for A3 there is pretty much nothing that will be done at this point.

Too much was broken, dozens of attempted fixes proved futile right down to the core game not really knowing where certain things were and Franze doesn't have much time to rebuild the framework.

The instability is likely due to the COG being way off along with other flight characteristics, there is nothing we can do about that at this time for reasons of

Edited July 23, 2014 by NodUnit

[pipyn1970 19]

Hi folks, could someone please give me some tips on how best to control my AI gunner? Burning questions I have are:

1) how can I shoot at what I've told him to aim at?

2) how can I see what he's aiming at? - I think in Ed Macey's book he said he could see what his gunner was looking at from the pilots seat.

3) what I want to learn how to do is tell my gunner to aim the 30mm at infantry & me fire. I want the same thing when a human player lases a target for me also - how can I be sure I can hit that target?

Also has anyone got tips on how to use the rockets against infantry or buildings, like how to best aim while in 1st person?

Many thanks in advance

[nodunit 397]

1. Toggle manual fire via action menu (standard game command) and you will be able to control the weapons as well as shoot whatever the gunner aims at.

2. Yes through TADS video feed but we don't have that ability so you will have to go by the FOR (Field of Regard) box location on the bottom of the helmet display. It is a small box moving about within a larger box that moves based on where TADS is looking, the weapon aiming cue (not crosshairs) will also give a better idea where the gun is pointing.

3. Use the command menu for your gunner, go into targets and the infantry should be there, for you fire is the same as question 1 or you can click the mouse or whatever button you have bound to tell them to fire and cease fire.

For laser targeting do you mean a human player as in the same helicopter or another helicopter?

For rockets you just have to aim with the I beam and decide what mode is best for you, you can use the manual aim to slew the pylons for a bit more area or you can lock weapons in place to ensure they don't move (that includes the gunner moving them) during a strafe. If TADS or FCR register sight on the target within the LOS then the I beam will be solid rather than dashed, although you will need to fire more than one volley on account that rockets are the least accurate weapon and they won't always follow the same direction, deviation also worsens the further you are from the target.

It is also important to use the proper warhead type for the right job, if you're going against infantry pack some M255's or M261's if you also have light armor, and if its a more fortified position you need to blast then carry some M229.

With the three zones in each rocket pod you should have plenty of room to experiment.

[ClintJTF207 10]

this looks likes a pretty cool Apache add-on. will try it out in the future

[frostie12345 48]

Dont saw a Information about it so i write my question here is this Longbow ACE Compatible in A2 OA ?

cheers