helicopters to overpowered with this radar?

[Qosmius 10]

looks good. but i have very little faith that the developers will implement something like this in vanilla arma 3..and it is a shame since you will need mods for that and not all servers will use those mods

[twistking 204]

the magic radar for me is less a problem of pvp balance, simply because i play coop most of the time, but it is not only completely unrealistic (i don't care about 2035 future scenario because if such technology would exist, the battlefield would look totally different from where arma 3 seems to aim.) the main problem for me is, that flying an attack helicopter is not much fun, simply because it is not a real challenge. the magic radar and magic tab-lock feel unimmersive and are unchallenging. even battlefield 3 was more fun playing in helicopters.

i would really love to see a realistic solution, but even a more arcadey 2035-future-weapon solution would be cool, as long as there would be some challenge involved in spotting, identifying and attacking enemys with atgms.

as said before, i will make a ticket, as soon as the beta feedback tracker is online. tomorrow hopefully.

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

looks good. but i have very little faith that the developers will implement something like this in vanilla arma 3..and it is a shame since you will need mods for that and not all servers will use those mods

You don't need a mod - it will run as a simple script. The difficulty is finding a way around creating an invulnerable tank.

[Qosmius 10]

the magic radar for me is less a problem of pvp balance, simply because i play coop most of the time, but it is not only completely unrealistic (i don't care about 2035 future scenario because if such technology would exist, the battlefield would look totally different from where arma 3 seems to aim.) the main problem for me is, that flying an attack helicopter is not much fun, simply because it is not a real challenge. the magic radar and magic tab-lock feel unimmersive and are unchallenging. even battlefield 3 was more fun playing in helicopters.

i would really love to see a realistic solution, but even a more arcadey 2035-future-weapon solution would be cool, as long as there would be some challenge involved in spotting, identifying and attacking enemys with atgms.

as said before, i will make a ticket, as soon as the beta feedback tracker is online. tomorrow hopefully.

thank you for a good answer :) i guess this thread can be closed now

[Beagle 684]

as helicopters work now..they can spot anything 360 degres to a couple of kms away..they can spam tab to make insta lock on without even seing the enemy..iin real life atleast you have to use your tv cam and lock onto the enemy manually before firing ur hellfire missile..here just use the magic radar to spot vehicles and tab it..done boom

there is no way that planes or helicopters have the ability to use radar on ground targets, its a joke. even simple transport helicopters in arma have this magic radar to see anything. i dont think it even exists anything like that in real life except for dedicated radar stations or recon aircraft

And exactly this features have destroyed the fun in larger scale combined Team vs. Team missions like "Warfare" in ArmA2 and Armed Assault. Now BIS strikes again with the lame excuse "it's 2035".

[kotov12345 10]

new game old threads - fire in the hole! loooooooooooooooool :) - I heard they not very good with weapons.

From another side any propaganda page will you tell our weapons can do anything and kill anyone - automatically.As soon as you limit something you will get army of zombie with complains their tab is not working....

Edited June 24, 2013 by kotov12345

[Beagle 684]

new game old threads - fire in the hole! loooooooooooooooool :) - I heard they not very good with weapons

It's that way since 2001. At least we can say this is consequent continuation.

[twistking 204]

guys, let's be constructive. the issue is well known and it is time that we convince the devs, that the community wants better fire control systems for aircrafts and that a better implementation is not just "simulations-fever" but would aid gameplay and plain fun for advanced players and beginners alike.

as said before: i will make a ticket as soon as the beta is officially released. if we get some hundreds votes we might convince the devs. i think it is a feature that could still be implemented at this stage of development.

let's make it happen:)

[progamer 14]

The helicopter likely isn't the one producing the radar, Doppler or Lidar. It is receiving this from places like, vehicles with the proper equipment (like attack helicopters) , command tracking signals through advanced computer algorithms, advanced forms of Doppler radar that can detect vehicles and people, many kinds satellite data and other ways i missed. Vehicles are not alone on the battlefield with no communications, they can transmit and receive data to create a map from the various sources i listed above.

Lidar:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidar

Pulse-Doppler radar used by militery: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-Doppler_radar

The radar is not magic because your helicopter is not a lonewolf vehicle with zero communication systems.

If it bugs you that much, just make script or mod to change it.

Edited June 24, 2013 by ProGamer

[Smurf 12]

Yet, if a put a single chopper in the editor against a wall of enemies, I can see, lock and kill them all with few button presses.

[progamer 14]

Yet, if a put a single chopper in the editor against a wall of enemies, I can see, lock and kill them all with few button presses.

What I'm saying is realistically speaking you can"t place satellites in orbit, cannot setup a communications system or place down radar, lidar, or pulse doppler radar objects because of engine issues, they would take to long to create, or the devs aren't done making them so the devs simulate these systems which are vital commanding units on the battlefield and are used by the military of many countries.

Real life choppers can lock on pretty fast to enemies but they normally like to receive confirmation to hit the target. When you say place enemies what kinds? No anti air units i presume? No commands for the AI? Only infantry? AI problems are an AI balance issue which is discussed in many other threads.

[Qosmius 10]

are you kidding me? have you ever been in the army progamer?

[progamer 14]

are you kidding me? have you ever been in the army progamer?

This is about?: "Are you kidding me?" For what?

[Qosmius 10]

sorry but i just got a real laughter from the post you just posted..real life isnt some cheap sci fi movie or battlefield 2

[mmaruda 20]

I play a lot of flight simulators and even the most advanced avionics do not allow you to do things the way you do in Arma. Examples: Falcon BMS - for attacking ground targets you would usually use the radar in snowplough mode - it scans in front of the plane and shows contacts. You can than have a look at it with the TGP to identify the target and bomb it in CCRP mode - going under 10000 feet is not advised since you will get killed by manpads. A-10C pretty much the same, only you do not have radar. Spotting stuff with the TGP is not really good since it take too much time and requires you to be low and when you are low you get killed by manpads. So you use JTAC to do the spotting for you, but you have to follow proper attack procedures. Mavericks have too poor resolution for identifying targets and tend to lock on to anything contrasting with the ground so friendly fire can occur. Ka-50 - no JTAC, no TGP, just a crappy TV screen for spotting stuff and your MKI Eyeball - you kill stuff in hover from a safe distance and avoid infantry because they KILL YOU WITH MANPADS. Strafing runs with unguided stuff should be done at high speed with lots of flares and prayers.

How does that compare to Arma? Your situation awareness is basically godlike, since you see have this great radar, you auto-lock on target and have flawless IFF. Your RWR tells you each time you are being shot at with missiles. In RL stuff like Strelas are silent killers. So realistic? Nope, but fun and easy to pickup for anyone without much hassle. I won't judge which type of gameplay is better since I enjoy both depending on the mood. Arma is not really a flight sim and I think BIS should leave it as it is. More realistic aircraft operation should however be pursued by modders.

[twistking 204]

let us please not start a flame war.

progamer, you are indeed very wrong. please check wikipedia for the atgms currently used on attack helicopters. you will see, that they are heatseekers or need guidance by the gunner, or in rare cases can attack a laser designated target on their own.

[progamer 14]

let us please not start a flame war.

progamer, you are indeed very wrong. please check wikipedia for the atgms currently used on attack helicopters. you will see, that they are heatseekers or need guidance by the gunner, or in rare cases can attack a laser designated target on their own.

Thats what I was wondering whether he meant the radar part or the atgms part.

[twistking 204]

i guess most people complain, that this "radar-thing" and the target acquisition of atgm are combined, which is so unrealistic. i guess nobody would complain, if helicopters would have very good battlefield awareness through radar or some sort of shared digital intel system, that you described, especially on lower difficulty settings.

the main problem is, that your missiles can lock on to that target-informations, while in reality they would need to lock-on the heat-signature or would need manual guidance. both systems would require line of sight, some sort of manual acquisition and would not allow missle-spamming.

another aspect is, that the current system makes all kinds of jtac (joint terminal attack controller, i believe) completely obsolete. why target an enemy with laser, when the helicopter or airplane itself can see and fight the target by itself from any range...

as said before: i will make a ticket for a more sophisticated solution as soon as the beta officially starts.

Edited June 24, 2013 by twistking

[progamer 14]

i guess most people complain, that this "radar-thing" and the target acquisition of atgm are combined, which is so unrealistic. i guess nobody would complain, if helicopters would have very good battlefield awareness through radar or some sort of shared digital intel system, especially on lower difficulty settings.

the main problem is, that your missles can lock on to that target-informations, while in reality they would need to lock-on the heat-signature or would need manual guidance. both systems would require line of sight and would not allow missle-spamming.

another aspect is, that the current system makes all kinds of jtac completely obsolete. why target an enemy with laser, when the helicopter or airplane itself can see and fight the target by itself from any range...

Are there any smart weapons which could acomplish what we see ingame?

---------- Post added at 19:49 ---------- Previous post was at 19:47 ----------

I also noticed laser do nothing other than make a dot on the surface currently, so the current atgm weapons could be using a place holder system while the other is worked on.

[twistking 204]

Are there any smart weapons which could acomplish what we see ingame?

as far as i know: no!

i'm not an expert, but for helicopters i think, the longbow system is the most advanced heli-based atgm system currently in use. afaik it relies on painting the target with a laser.

but there are still dozens of systems in use, which require the gunner to manually guide the missile with a joystick.

*edit* ok, i checked wikipedia and i was wrong: the apache longbow can fire hellfires which are radar-guided (AGM-114L) and truly fire & forget. still target acquisition is not comparable with the system in arma.

I also noticed laser do nothing other than make a dot on the surface currently, so the current atgm weapons could be using a place holder system while the other is worked on.

i hope so. also in the helicopters, we have that nice looking green head-up-display, which is unfortunately quite useless atm, and we have also these old arma-style white game-hud-elements, that are so un-immersive. perhaps the green hud is a sign, that they are working on a truly vehicle-hud-implemented solution. hopefully using the picture-inpicture capabilities of the engine for target-identification.

Edited June 24, 2013 by twistking

[progamer 14]

as far as i know: no!

i'm not an expert, but for helicopters i think, the longbow system is the most advanced heli-based atgm system currently in use. afaik it relies on painting the target with a laser.

but there are still dozens of systems in use, which require the gunner to manually guide the missile with a joystick.

*edit* ok, i checked wikipedia and i was wrong: the apache longbow can fire hellfires which are radar-guided and truly fire & forget. still target acquisition is not comparable with the system in arma.

So then if we make a ticket on this issue than it should be about target acquisition then.

[twistking 204]

i would call the ticket something like "more sophisticated target acquisition for aircrafts / get rid of tab-locking"

i will also provide a link to this thread, or other threads that discuss the problem. as mentioned before i will wait for the beta to see if there are already some changes in place.

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

Glad someone finally realised that helicopters have radar and radar guided missiles. By 2035 all the types ingame would have link 16 (tactical data exchange) too which works from other aircraft or satellite. Please read up on modern avionics and systems, this isn't WW2 any more. The problem is the tab locking but how you overcome that I dont know - Radar GUI where you use the mouse to select a target or click the buttons on the side to cycle through targets? Is there really that much difference from pressing keyboard keys?

Did anyone play F/A18 Hornet 3.0? We've had this since the mid 1990s in games lol.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Mattar_Tharkari

[Tonci87 163]

Glad someone finally realised that helicopters have radar and radar guided missiles. By 2035 all the types ingame would have link 16 (tactical data exchange) too. Please read up on modern avionics and systems, this isn't WW2 any more. The problem is the tab locking but how you overcome that I dont know - Radar GUI where you use the mouse to select a target?

I would prefer being able to change the screens on the MFDs and radar modes and toggle them on screen for a more detailed view and interaction - doubt it will ever happen though. But is a GUI that difficult? Can something like this be done in Arma3?:

http://www.freefalcondoc.com/index.php?title=Air-to-Ground_Engagements

Listen one last time: It doesn´t matter if this technology will exist because there will be counter technologies to reestablish the fog of war. No Helicopter will be able to fly around with an active 360° radar without beeing shot down.

And don´t come up with satellites! Unless I can place one in the Editor they are simply non existent in Arma. Period! (And Satellites can be shot down as well, yeah, that is already possible)

[twistking 204]

true.

also, just as an example: the dagr missies of the commanche are laser guided.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Attack_Guided_Rocket

but this discussion is useless - we should focus on gameplay value instead of speculating what technology might exist in 2035.