Currently admirable Elite AI in Showcase: Infantry?

[Sneakson 1]

We're all aware the AI has some issues right now such as working terrible in CQB… and working pretty terribly over distance too really.

However in Showcase: Infantry, which I play a lot, the AI seems alright. Doesn’t it?

I’m playing on Elite with everything possible disabled and 0.7 AI and did think it was excruciatingly punishing but when I lowered my settings so I got about 40 fps instead of down to 20 in battle it got a lot better.

I see them – I shoot. They see me, they shoot. Sometimes they try to run, sometimes I try to run. Sometimes my shots just won’t hit and they get me and sometimes they miss long enough for me to hit them instead.

My AI team usually drop like Skrillex but the only big mistakes the AI makes is insisting on going up that hill east of the village where they’re sitting ducks and regrouping to a point in the back of the village where they’ll just stand until I come get them.

The AI is quite aggressive and walks down the valley and have even ended up behind me on more than one occasion and going through that central vegetation is always really tense.

Is it possible to open this mission in the editor to see how much scripting is in there?

I think that on maximum settings the AI should nearly be like playing against a player. Which means nearly getting killed as many times as you kill unless you’re at an advantage.

On Elite 0.7 I can complete the mission in about 5 tries and ended up with 16 and 19 kills which gives me a meta-K/D of about 4. Seems alright doesn’t it?

Agree?

[zooloo75 834]

Un-PBO the mission, its one of those PBOs inside your addons folder.

[Masharra 10]

you mentioned kd thus anything you wrote is irrelevant. :P

Heck your signature compounds it :P

ON topic and more seriously

When seeing if AI is admirable I tend to prefer watching them without player input from about 200m up and with atleast 2 squads to a platoon each. What I look for are overall small scale tactics and reactions. Overall I tend to worry less about individual soldiers and more on fireteam and up.

Aggressiveness does not equal better ai for me. Smarter = better ai. IE disengaging if opfor is deemed too strong instead of charging blindly to death, using smoke if cover is unavailable, not requesting reinforcements if opfor is weaker etc etc. Watching a soldier run blindly through bushes as the area is lit up with mg fire does not make me think great ai.

The infantry showcase is "too" scripted for my taste to properly observe how admirable the ai is.

Tldr

It should be less how many kills/deaths you got and more HOW they killed you.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Masharra
tldr

[Sneakson 1]

Well, the AI doesn’t act “intelligent†but it does a solid job of being an obstacle. I’ve been playing the Showcase all day and it is a lot like playing against your pretty average internet infantry in most games anyways.

Sometimes they run past you… and won’t turn back around even when you shoot at them. They also move around a lot by running without their aim up and when they do they don’t pay close attention to their surroundings. And naturally they quite often turn around excruciatingly slow or have to adjust their stance somehow.

Other than that I don’t see any big issues in the CQB AI. Eventually their aim should be made a lot worse though because currently they are very accurate maybe to even out their slow turning speed.

I always remember Ghost Recon. That game has solid AI. I seriously don’t understand why AI today can’t work like AI did back in the days of Quake or just whatever when an enemy sees you – turns to you and then shoots you straight on. No walking in circles, no awkward adjusting and no bullshit. In Ghost Recon an enemy sees you – it turns to you and shoots. As simple as that. Bang bang, game over. And if you’re not in sight they circle around you quite intelligently by searching for blind spots and then approaching you until they’re right on top of you.

[Masharra 10]

Well imo thats one of the major current problem with vanilla ai. It acts like "internet infantry". I would say they dont act like that because those games were overall quite basic. They were very good at the illusion unfortunately I doubt that would stand up very well today. I recently played ghost recon1, first thing I noticed Less AI, almost no squad tactics I doubt they were actually able to be suppressed.

Games today do have the turns to you and shoot if they see you. They are in most corridor shooters. In most corridor shooters the ai probably has to only worry about 2-4 things. Shoot back, move to closest cover, look cool, flank along alternate corridor 1 or 2.

The ai in arma I would say has to worry about more things.Figure out where shots are coming from, Shoot back, order soldiers to appropriate cover, order soldiers to retreat, call reinforcements to do flanking, etc etc.

overall our memories of games like that tend to be blinded by nostalgia. I love R6 but rarely does anyone who loves it comment on how terrorists could head shot you with a mac10 from across the map.

[Sneakson 1]

Well imo thats one of the major current problem with vanilla ai. It acts like "internet infantry". I would say they dont act like that because those games were overall quite basic. They were very good at the illusion unfortunately I doubt that would stand up very well today. I recently played ghost recon1, first thing I noticed Less AI, almost no squad tactics I doubt they were actually able to be suppressed.

Games today do have the turns to you and shoot if they see you. They are in most corridor shooters. In most corridor shooters the ai probably has to only worry about 2-4 things. Shoot back, move to closest cover, look cool, flank along alternate corridor 1 or 2.

The ai in arma I would say has to worry about more things.Figure out where shots are coming from, Shoot back, order soldiers to appropriate cover, order soldiers to retreat, call reinforcements to do flanking, etc etc.

overall our memories of games like that tend to be blinded by nostalgia. I love R6 but rarely does anyone who loves it comment on how terrorists could head shot you with a mac10 from across the map.

Actually I played Ghost Recon 1 recently and again there's no such thing as intelligent AI but in GR it’s deadly. On Elite, if you miss you die. They spot and shoot but also actually chase you down well in GR in my experience. I don’t know exactly how it works but it seems to me that the AI searches for a spot you can’t see them at such as where a bush obscures them from your view and then they use that to their advantage to get closer to you while you’re none the wiser if you camp too much. I’ve had many enemies pop out of bushes right next to me after they apparently have sneaked some distance to get to me while I foolishly didn’t reposition.

And no, I don't get what's so difficult about modern AI. The AI in ARMA doesn't give orders or retreat, that's all scripted anyways.

Unfortunately we’re unlikely to see better AI any time soon. With the online boom of the past 5 years or so AI has nearly become irrelevant. Even more so in games like Battlefield that only have a few, scripted and short single player missions with no expansions and no mods.

At least there’s no excuse for not making tanks have brilliant AI because they move like they’re tanks already obviously. Infantry and aircraft are probably doomed to unintelligence though.

[EDcase 87]

...The AI in ARMA doesn't give orders or retreat, that's all scripted anyways...

The AI in ARMA are not scripted at all. (unless its specific to a mission)

Its all based on rules and parameters that define their behavior. eg There is a parameter "allow fleeing" which will determine at what danger level they will decide to retreat.

To me the AI generally behave quite well and intelligently. Taking cover and firing while leaning etc. They tend to get a bit confused when very close to them.

My gripe is their default accuracy and spotting skills.

They can spot you very quickly even unmoving prone behind a bush. They should spot an enemy in that situation but not so quickly.

...And the most annoying is their accuracy. Seeing their tracers they are more accurate standing than we are prone. On Veteran they will kill you within 1 or 2 shots after spotting you through folliage in under a second.

At the moment the only way to defeat them is either pick them off from long range or be very close and move fast (which is fine). Its the middle distance in heavy foliage that they have too much advantage.

Edited June 19, 2013 by EDcase

[Masharra 10]

I. The AI in ARMA doesn't give orders or retreat, that's all scripted anyways.

What?

[Sneakson 1]

What?

I've never seen AI give any sort of orders or making any sort of intelligent retreat other than what I assume to be a script in Showcase: Infantry when they will occasionally run over the ridge.

If you just spawn them in the editor with no scripting they will at worst not even move when shot and at best scatter randomly over a small area if they're a big group then just sort of sleep.

[tortuosit 486]

BTW, is there any way to supress the Arma III AI in a way TPWCAS works for Arma II, or will we have to wait until it's available for A3?

[Masharra 10]

I've never seen AI give any sort of orders or making any sort of intelligent retreat other than what I assume to be a script in Showcase: Infantry when they will occasionally run over the ridge.

If you just spawn them in the editor with no scripting they will at worst not even move when shot and at best scatter randomly over a small area if they're a big group then just sort of sleep.

The ai give orders, and as EDcase says "The AI in ARMA are not scripted at all. (unless its specific to a mission)

Its all based on rules and parameters that define their behavior. eg There is a parameter "allow fleeing" which will determine at what danger level they will decide to retreat."

I would hazard a guess that arma 3's ai is set to DO or DIE.

Spawning them infront of each other isnt the best test.

Spawn a squad in marina with another squad 1/4-1/2 klick out. Spawn a squad outside of marine with a s&d waypoint into it.

That will show you their intel.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Masharra

[EDcase 87]

I think units created by default in the editor have the most basic setup so they are not a good example.

I do hope that eventually the editor will be more powerful in setting parameters rather than having to use scripts and command lines...

[chrisb 196]

If you use modded ai, then that is of course the best you can get, better than any other ai available to pc gaming, imo, certainly the A2 ai if using a well tested mix of mod/addons.

However, spawning ai in missions doesn’t work as well, they tend to be spawned with stock ai behaviour. I rarely use spawn for that reason..

[Sneakson 1]

Yeah -- and spawning an AI and just letting it go wild without any other orders is the definition of non-scripted AI. It doesn't work well in ARMA3. However scripted AI does.

[chrisb 196]

Its difficult, because really you have to make missions to really get the best out of the series, or at least play missions that have been made with ai mods in mind.

The ‘Editor’ is the series, for me and many others who more or less live in there. The thing is, missions using ai mod/addons, designed right, will give open world environments, as we have and enjoy so much, in the series, open world missions. These are really unscripted, where the ai is governed by its own decisions, not scripted by the mission maker. This type of mission will easily match playing against other human players, our group play against ai most of the time, intelligent ai, I understand you don't think it exists, but it does, just have to look for it. Its all possible and available, but at the moment its all in A2 not A3..

But one thing is for sure, this series has the best ai available, just that its modded ai that you have to use right.;).

If it arrives in A3, is yet to be seen..

[tortuosit 486]

The thing is, missions using ai mod/addons, designed right, will give open world environments, as we have and enjoy so much, in the series, open world missions. These are really unscripted, where the ai is governed by its own decisions, not scripted by the mission maker.

Examples on this for user made content, which really convinced you?

And to repeat my question (don't want hijack thread, but hey...): Do we already have a supression system for ArmA3 like tpwcas in Arma 2?

[Jex 1]

My gripe is their default accuracy and spotting skills.

They can spot you very quickly even unmoving prone behind a bush. They should spot an enemy in that situation but not so quickly.

...And the most annoying is their accuracy. Seeing their tracers they are more accurate standing than we are prone. On Veteran they will kill you within 1 or 2 shots after spotting you through folliage in under a second.

If you're still their spotting ability should go drastically down. RL example, on exercise one day I was laying by a bush in British DPM taking a break and these two civvies were walking towards me. What I was laying on were those brown/tan coloured beech pebbles/rocks. They were talking to each other and as they got closer I realized that hadn't seen me so I waited till they got to about 6 foot and just adjusted my lazy laying down posture a little and they both jumped out their skin lol. I wasn't in the bush, just by it and learned a lot that day about the importance of keeping still - as they say - movement kills.

In Arma this should be reflected - if unit movement = 0 then subtract X% off their spotting ability. This should also apply to all movement speeds - slower moving things are harder to spot that faster moving things and also the angle they are moving it relative to your position.

I'd love to know the variables they use for the AI in spotting.

[chrisb 196]

Examples on this for user made content, which really convinced you?

And to repeat my question (don't want hijack thread, but hey...): Do we already have a supression system for ArmA3 like tpwcas in Arma 2?

I don't play or use any user made content other than my own, made for the group I play in, also myself of course (SP). All based on a GL4 format, using GL4/SLX/Zeus/TPWC parts (pbo's), to get a really great mix of ai.

Look at some of the vids I have (sig), only tests, but they will certainly give you an idea of how the ai react/behave, with no scripting, just WP.

Regards suppression, isn't TPWC already across and in A3 (I think), not using it myself because I'm not making missions for A3 just A2..;)

Back on topic, I haven't played the scenario mentioned, so don't know really, it could perhaps show A3 ai in a slightly better light, the OP seems to think so..

[EDcase 87]

...the importance of keeping still...

I think AI do spot movement more quickly than static targets but I agree that it should take them much longer to spot you if you're not moving.