Bush and iraq?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ July 30 2002,16:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ July 30 2002,08:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The ghettos are a result of your 'arbeit macht frei' politics where only the strong and the capable can succeed in the system<span id='postcolor'>

Ouch, that hurts.<span id='postcolor'>

What I meant was this:

The idea of everybody being able to achieve the same success through hard work is very nice but it assumes a society without any history/inheretence. That might have worked for the majority settlers that came to America without any possesions 200 years ago. That is not the case today. Different people have different chances of success depending under which social conditions they are born. A prime example is Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. being presidents.

In the end, hard work has nothing to do with it.

[Harnu 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In the end, hard work has nothing to do with it.<span id='postcolor'>

Ya, in a lot of places, it's not what you know. It's who you know.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (USSoldier11B @ July 30 2002,09:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am sorry to disagree. Sweden has nothing to do with Bosnia and Kosovo. Europe is not one country, if you dídn't know.

<span id='postcolor'>

No, but the EU might as well be. I sit and watch as the tendrils of socialism slip through Western Europe. Slowly...ohhh..sooo...slowly your rights are being taken away. Socialism might work for a small microcasm culture like Sweden, but not for a larger more culturaly diverse nation, such as the U.S. People are way to greedy and ambitious for it to ever work. It's a noble idea, but impractical. I fear the EU will one day be consolidated into one socialist state. If it truly works how it's supposed to then great....but I doubt it. Socialism is just another tool used by the elite totalitarian to control the masses.<span id='postcolor'>

ooooh...evil socialism!

It's a terrible thing to be able to see a doctor when you need one without being told that you dont have insurance..so go away.  It's terrible to know that if the actions of another nation cause one of your industries to flounder, you will get financial support while you find another job.  It's terrible when you can have a place for your child to go so you can work rather than be on support.  It's terrible that drug prices are so good, that people from a neighboring country flock to your border cities because they are tired of being screwed at home.

Socialism is about nothing more than taking the next step in human development and making the concept of society caring for all of its parts more important than greed.  But it is villified by the right wing because it means that instead of being able to tax shelter all their money and create a virtual monarchy of the wealthy, they are made to pay into programs based on what they can afford.  

You say that socialism is a tool of the totalitarian elite to control the masses...but how is the laissez faire capitalism system that you espouse any different.  Your wealthy are so entrenched now that you have ever bit as much a 'totalitarian elite'.

And you know what? For a socialist..even I sometimes get grumpy about how many taxes I have to pay.  But for the most part that is because my eyes arent blinded to the inefficiency of beaurocracy of any sort (10,000 Pentagon Hammer, anyone? )

[MDRZulu 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In the end, hard work has nothing to do with it.<span id='postcolor'>

You are wrong there considering I know people in my family with previous drug problems with that ghetto life that have stopped their problems and gotten a job and since moved out of the ghetto into a fairly nice home. Her son who came from a much poorer family then me gets paid about twice as much as me now and since he is active with the police department they are gonna help pay for him to go through some college and then the academy.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ July 30 2002,19:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (USSoldier11B @ July 30 2002,09:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am sorry to disagree. Sweden has nothing to do with Bosnia and Kosovo. Europe is not one country, if you dídn't know.

<span id='postcolor'>

No, but the EU might as well be. I sit and watch as the tendrils of socialism slip through Western Europe. Slowly...ohhh..sooo...slowly your rights are being taken away. Socialism might work for a small microcasm culture like Sweden, but not for a larger more culturaly diverse nation, such as the U.S. People are way to greedy and ambitious for it to ever work. It's a noble idea, but impractical. I fear the EU will one day be consolidated into one socialist state. If it truly works how it's supposed to then great....but I doubt it. Socialism is just another tool used by the elite totalitarian to control the masses.<span id='postcolor'>

ooooh...evil socialism!

It's a terrible thing to be able to see a doctor when you need one without being told that you dont have insurance..so go away.  It's terrible to know that if the actions of another nation cause one of your industries to flounder, you will get financial support while you find another job.  It's terrible when you can have a place for your child to go so you can work rather than be on support.  It's terrible that drug prices are so good, that people from a neighboring country flock to your border cities because they are tired of being screwed at home.

Socialism is about nothing more than taking the next step in human development and making the concept of society caring for all of its parts more important than greed.  But it is villified by the right wing because it means that instead of being able to tax shelter all their money and create a virtual monarchy of the wealthy, they are made to pay into programs based on what they can afford.  

You say that socialism is a tool of the totalitarian elite to control the masses...but how is the laissez faire capitalism system that you espouse any different.  Your wealthy are so entrenched now that you have ever bit as much a 'totalitarian elite'.

And you know what? For a socialist..even I sometimes get grumpy about how many taxes I have to pay.  But for the most part that is because my eyes arent blinded to the inefficiency of beaurocracy of any sort (10,000 Pentagon Hammer, anyone? )<span id='postcolor'>

To describe Europe as socialist is pushing the envelope a little.

Right wingers in Spain, Italy, Austria and elsewhere. Plus massive gains among fascists.

All the things Warin describes are the product of sound social responsibility not any real socialist doctrine.

I don't like the idea of an EU superstate, infact I hate it, most people in Britian do. We are a collection of nations who work together. Our nations are the safest, most comfortabe in the world thanks to a little planning and responsibility.

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 30 2002,23:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We are a collection of nations who work together. Our nations are the safest, most comfortabe in the world thanks to a little planning and responsibility.<span id='postcolor'>

wich nations ? the UK ones or the EU ones ?

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ July 30 2002,23:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">3--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 30 2002,233)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We are a collection of nations who work together. Our nations are the safest, most comfortabe in the world thanks to a little planning and responsibility.<span id='postcolor'>

wich nations ? the UK ones or the EU ones ?<span id='postcolor'>

EU

[ralphwiggum 6]

Bush and Hussein,

Bush and Hussein.

Go together like Chirac and Le Pen.

This what I tell you brother.

you can't have one without the other.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ July 30 2002,23:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Bush and Hussein,

Bush and Hussein.

Go together like Chirac and Le Pen.

This what I tell you brother.

you can't have one without the other.<span id='postcolor'>

LOL! That may be true, Bush may politicaly need Hussain, But I don't think Saddam needs George.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ July 30 2002,23:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Bush and Hussein,

Bush and Hussein.

Go together like Chirac and Le Pen.

This what I tell you brother.

you can't have one without the other.<span id='postcolor'>

This is an example you shouldnt have chosen, look at the consequences. Because everyone neglected LePen in the second vote Chirac now has the total votes and is therefore as powerful as never before. I am sure this is not what the frenchies intended to happen, but they had no choice. Many people now support Bush because of his Military-politics whereas the US-economy suffers from his incompetencies. (you may disagree here, that is just a political opinion)!

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ July 30 2002,23:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">just a political opinion!<span id='postcolor'>

Just a political opinion!? They are the most important kind!

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 30 2002,23:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ July 30 2002,23:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Bush and Hussein,

Bush and Hussein.

Go together like Chirac and Le Pen.

This what I tell you brother.

you can't have one without the other.<span id='postcolor'>

LOL! That may be true, Bush may politicaly need Hussain, But I don't think Saddam needs George.<span id='postcolor'>

but chirac needed le Pen , otherwise he would be in prison actually

[Warin 0]

This cartoon made me laugh...

It's so true.

[USSoldier11B 0]

Bush didn't have anything to do with the contras......

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ July 30 2002,23:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 30 2002,23:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ July 30 2002,23:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Bush and Hussein,

Bush and Hussein.

Go together like Chirac and Le Pen.

This what I tell you brother.

you can't have one without the other.<span id='postcolor'>

LOL! That may be true, Bush may politicaly need Hussain, But I don't think Saddam needs George.<span id='postcolor'>

but chirac needed le Pen , otherwise he would be in prison actually<span id='postcolor'>

     And this is where he belongs!

Ran, that realy is so freaky in France. Your ministers live in huge huge appartments on the Champs Elysee while our live in medium sized caravans . Your politicans lock down the most important roads in Paris during Rush-hour just to go shopping (in a huge convoy of limos and police-motorcycles).

Our members of parliament get kicked out and exposed to a trial only because they used some of the bonus-air-miles they collected for private trips (yes, this is the biggest scandal right now in Germany, I am serious). Whereas your most corrupted politician becomes Monsieur le President. Presque comme Obelix a dit: Il sont fous les francais!  

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ July 31 2002,12:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Our members of parliament get kicked out and exposed to a trial only because they used some of the bonus-air-miles they collected for private trips (yes, this is the biggest scandal right now in Germany, I am serious).<span id='postcolor'>

I can top that. When our previous prime minister retired a woman named Mona Sahlin was to take over the post. However the media found out that she had bought a Toblerone chocolate bar using her government VISA card. This became a huge scandal and everybody was outraged how she could have done something that immoral.

I'm not kidding you. After a week of intensive flaming from all sides, she chose not to take over the post as prime minister.

[LauryThorn 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the media found out that she had bought a Toblerone chocolate bar using her government VISA card. This became a huge scandal and everybody was outraged how she could have done something that immoral.

I'm not kidding you. After a week of intensive flaming from all sides, she chose not to take over the post as prime minister.<span id='postcolor'>

Well let's just hope that she enjoyed that chocolate bar!

[R. Gerschwarzenge 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ July 31 2002,13:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I can top that. When our previous prime minister retired a woman named Mona Sahlin was to take over the post. However the media found out that she had bought a Toblerone chocolate bar using her government VISA card. This became a huge scandal and everybody was outraged how she could have done something that immoral.

I'm not kidding you. After a week of intensive flaming from all sides, she chose not to take over the post as prime minister.<span id='postcolor'>

Hooray for media! (hooray for stupid people too)

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ July 31 2002,12:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ July 30 2002,23:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 30 2002,23:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ July 30 2002,23:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Bush and Hussein,

Bush and Hussein.

Go together like Chirac and Le Pen.

This what I tell you brother.

you can't have one without the other.<span id='postcolor'>

LOL! That may be true, Bush may politicaly need Hussain, But I don't think Saddam needs George.<span id='postcolor'>

but chirac needed le Pen , otherwise he would be in prison actually<span id='postcolor'>

     And this is where he belongs!

Ran, that realy is so freaky in France. Your ministers live in huge huge appartments on the Champs Elysee while our live in medium sized caravans . Your politicans lock down the most important roads in Paris during Rush-hour just to go shopping (in a huge convoy of limos and police-motorcycles).

Our members of parliament get kicked out and exposed to a trial only because they used some of the bonus-air-miles they collected for private trips (yes, this is the biggest scandal right now in Germany, I am serious). Whereas your most corrupted politician becomes Monsieur le President. Presque comme Obelix a dit: Il sont fous les francais!  <span id='postcolor'>

bbbbbbwwwwwwwwwhahahahahhah

you're right , but i don't live in a medium sized caravan , i live in a two story house with 12 rooms

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ July 31 2002,12:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I can top that. When our previous prime minister retired a woman named Mona Sahlin was to take over the post. However the media found out that she had bought a Toblerone chocolate bar using her government VISA card.<span id='postcolor'>

lolol , in france a politician wouldn't buy the chocolate , but the shop

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

That REALY is freaky Denoir! Just imagine how many scared members of parliament came home that day and looked through their credit card bills. All with sweat on their face and later on at the dinner table admitting to their wifes:

"Darling, I got to tell you someting. It might be that I will be getting troubles with job. I found this thing on my bill, did you use my credit card last saturday to buy you your Cosmopolitan at the airport while we were waiting?"

[Apollo 0]

America comming in millitary conflict again with Iraq is pretty probable ,even for still this year.Multiple reason's come in mind why America (or just Bush) would start a war on Iraq:

1: Oil ,wich is (like for every other country) and super-important strategical resource ,and as thus also maintaining the security of America's oil supply's.Iraq being ,along Iran one of those country's that can seriously hamper that supply.Wich would be a more longterm conflict ,as it is almost now.(e.g has there really been peace between the u.s and Iraq the last five year)

2: War on Terrorism & Propaganda ,as thing's arn't going overly well in America at this moment in economic terms ,the war on terror is a good way to distract the attention of the general American poppulace on a matter that is almost the revenge of a nation (for 11sept) ,a "greatly justified" action that let's Bush popularity rise per square kilometer that is carpet bombed.

3: Destabilizing a "roughe country". (Country's that trying to produce nuke's and hate America)

And then i would say that it's all three of these reason's ,Oil being the long term goal ,roughe country killing the middle term goal and propaganda and war on terror the short term goal.Oil eventually being the most important one ,and almost the eventual source of all problem's in the Middle East.

If the middle East had never contained oil All the above probably never had to happen anyway ,and the face of the middle east would be tottaly different.

Now has the U.S the right to do all this for Oil? That's really a hard debate.As European i would say the following thing's: I do not perfectly agree with all American Action's in time's of war's ,nor do i think that all the war's America engage's in are justified.But eventually it serve's the European need for these strategic resource's to ,low energy price's are always good for economy's ,and America's oil baring Satelite states in the Middle East. (Saoudi Arabia ,Koewait ,Qatar,...)

Furthermore ,if the "Civilized world" would lose the supply of these recource's their economy would be severly hurt.And eventually Nato isn't the only block that is using millitary power to secure these recource's ,if it hadn't secured them other country's ,like Russia or China would be keen to secure those region's themself's.

Conclusion: A country/regoin with plenty of oil in it's soil is bound to have Very good friend's and/or big enemy's ,and probably lot's of conflict.No wonder why the middle east is a time bomb.

And then there's also religion and culture ,wich vague out the true reason's of those conflict's.

No wonder America want's to get Osama Bin laden.He's is a Saudi Arabian ultimatly planning to overtrow the pro-American  monarchy in his mother country. (that bring's about 25% of the oils supply in the world (opec world i presume) and hold's about 40% of the oil in the middle east)

See Osama might be trying to let this conflict look like a religous war ,he's eventuall goal is to make Saudi Arabia a more fundamentalist ,anti American Nation.

Both America and Osama are striving goal's in that region that are very worldly.Justifying them can be tricky if you take in to consideration humankind's history ,and taking them into comparison to the conflict's happening now.Does for ex. the Colonization of the world by Europe defer much from the imperialistic Foureign policy America is using now? Isn't Osama bin laden not more than a sort of "freedom fighter" using Terrorism and Religion to maximize his eventual power ,all pretty frighting as it is? How justifiable or un-justifiable are these thing's in a worldly contex.

Eventually i think that in the future people will look at these conflict's in these way's.

The real historical stupidecy lies in the Monarchy of Saudi Arabia.If only they wouldn't have Saodi Arabia the social mess it is now.If only they wouldn't have been 1000 fat prince's with each 50 bankaccount's ,50 luxury Car's ad 50 woman.If only they would have made Saudi Arabia a nation.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The real historical stupidecy lies in the Monarchy of Saudi Arabia.If only they wouldn't have Saodi Arabia the social mess it is now.If only they wouldn't have been 1000 fat prince's with each 50 bankaccount's ,50 luxury Car's ad 50 woman.If only they would have made Saudi Arabia a nation.

<span id='postcolor'>

Saudi Arabia is one of the more prosperous in the Middle East. The house of Saud is infinatley preferable than Bin Laden's theocracy he wants in the country.

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ July 31 2002,13:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">bbbbbbwwwwwwwwwhahahahahhah  

you're right , but i don't live in a medium sized caravan , i live in a two story house with 12 rooms <span id='postcolor'>

you mean barracks?

[Apollo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Saudi Arabia is one of the more prosperous in the Middle East.<span id='postcolor'>

Well the member's of the upper class and the monarchy are stinking rich ,but that's only a very small part of the population.Most of the Saudi Arabian coman people live in poverty.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The house of Saud is infinatley preferable than Bin Laden's theocracy he wants in the country.<span id='postcolor'>

I agree in the sense that the house of Saud are good puppet's of the American's ,and that Nato influence over this region is very important for economicel reason's.But on the personal level i have no symphaty whatsoever for the Saudi Arabian monarchy.