Stag 0 Posted July 27, 2002 http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/07/27/ukraine.airshow/index.html Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 27, 2002 Damn And such a sensless thing as an airshow too... They have some updated news on Dagens Nyheter. The death toll is now 78 and 115 were injured. Both pilots managed to eject and survived which indicates that something went wrong with the plane before it hit the ground. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jester983 0 Posted July 27, 2002 Geesh thats terrible. I wonder what was the problem? Mechinical failure? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bn880 5 Posted July 27, 2002 No, it seems that by some cause they came too close to the ground while pointing the nose up at about 25deg, the back pressure is capable of stalling/damaging a jet engine. It looked like pilot error to get so close, but it might have been a warm air drift or something. Definately the engine was off! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paratrooper 0 Posted July 27, 2002 There has been alot of this recently, the CNN page even has a vote about banning airshows! The vote is against though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HotIce 0 Posted July 27, 2002 Just seen some russion reporter on CNN... They put it down too "Human error" He was attempting a Dive roll or something... The pilot ejected JUST before the plane hit the ground - surely if it was mechanical he would of ejected before? Still, the amount of deaths...The pictures of the place were horrible to look at Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 27, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (HotIce @ July 27 2002,19:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The pilot ejected JUST before the plane hit the ground - surely if it was mechanical he would of ejected before?<span id='postcolor'> Swedish news say that both pilots ejected well before the plane hit the ground and also after them ejecting that the plane hit some form of obstacle on the ground before plunging down. I don't know which source is correct but the Swedish one seems to be more updated when it comes to current death toll and number of injured. They also name the both pilots Vitalyj Toponar and Jurij Egorov and say that they are both veteran experienced pilots. They also say that they are currently talking of a mechanical failure in the Ukraine media. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bn880 5 Posted July 27, 2002 Well, you have to see the tape with audio, then u can decide for yourself. I saw it, looks like pilot error, but there is no way I can be sure. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HotIce 0 Posted July 27, 2002 Taken off the CNN site if you didnt read it. "The aircraft had just performed a steep turn when it appeared to tumble and enter a steep dive from which it failed to recover. " "The pilots ejected just before the impact and at least one parachute was seen to flare open as fierce flames and plumes of black smoke erupted from the wreckage. " The plane hit another on the ground..parked. How come theres so many different reports... Do people go around lieing or something, heh. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ran 0 Posted July 27, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (HotIce @ July 27 2002,20:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How come theres so many different reports... Do people go around lieing or something, heh.<span id='postcolor'> so many factors ...... if this has been writted after reports of victims and spectators : - they can be shocked - they're maybe under the effects of medicines (anthalgics , anti dolor) - they lie - they don't speak clearly , which can offer you the interpretation you want - they have a tendancy to make things bigger than they are Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bn880 5 Posted July 27, 2002 Oh no, I think they are not conflicting reports. The Ukranians are talking about mechanical failure, ofcourse the pilots can't imagine why their engine didn't pull them out, but it may be their error after all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ran 0 Posted July 27, 2002 it's not the first time that a russian plane crashes and the pilots eject at least it prove the ruskie's knoledge in matter of ejection seat Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Warin 0 Posted July 27, 2002 Not to sound insensitive, but if you go to an airshow, especially where they are demonstrating high per formace military aircraft, you are accepting a certain amount of risk. Sometimes accidents happen. It's just really terrible when it happens that so many people are killed. This will likely end up as pilot error. Ive noticed that if it can be blamed on the pilots, it will be. I still plan on going to one of the largest airshows in Canada next month Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Warin 0 Posted July 27, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ July 27 2002,20:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">it's not the first time that a russian plane crashes and the pilots eject at least it prove the ruskie's knoledge in matter of ejection seat<span id='postcolor'> Heh. Hehehehe. WAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA You kill me, Ran I think US pilots arent allowed to perform as much low level as the Russian pilots..so there is less opportunity for this sort of accident. Of course, all the Americans will trumpet this as proof that Russian hardware is less capable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 27, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ July 27 2002,20:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (HotIce @ July 27 2002,201)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How come theres so many different reports... Do people go around lieing or something, heh.<span id='postcolor'> so many factors ...... if this has been writted after reports of victims and spectators : - they can be shocked - they're maybe under the effects of medicines (anthalgics , anti dolor) - they lie - they don't speak clearly , which can offer you the interpretation you want - they have a tendancy to make things bigger than they are<span id='postcolor'> Yeah, I agree. It would have been surprising if there was a clear non-contradictory report. Remember the thread that was in OT when that lunatic took a shot at Chirac? Most European media reported that the spectators had subdued the gunner while CNN & BBC reported that the police subdued him. The truth in the end was that it was a combination of spectators subduing him and plain-cloth policemen that were there instantly, joining them in taking control over the suspect. Well, we'll know sooner or later... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 27, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ July 27 2002,20:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think US pilots arent allowed to perform as much low level as the Russian pilots..so there is less opportunity for this sort of accident.<span id='postcolor'> It is 1:1 in big accidents. Rammstein 1988, remember? Two NATO jets colliding in mid-air. Although they were Italians and not Americans, I think.... but it was a NATO airshow. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ran 0 Posted July 27, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ July 27 2002,20:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ July 27 2002,20:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (HotIce @ July 27 2002,20<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How come theres so many different reports... Do people go around lieing or something, heh.<span id='postcolor'> so many factors ...... if this has been writted after reports of victims and spectators : - they can be shocked - they're maybe under the effects of medicines (anthalgics , anti dolor) - they lie - they don't speak clearly , which can offer you the interpretation you want - they have a tendancy to make things bigger than they are<span id='postcolor'> Yeah, I agree. It would have been surprising if there was a clear non-contradictory report. Remember the thread that was in OT when that lunatic took a shot at Chirac? Most European media reported that the spectators had subdued the gunner while CNN & BBC reported that the police subdued him. The truth in the end was that it was a combination of spectators subduing him and plain-cloth policemen that were there instantly, joining them in taking control over the suspect. Well, we'll know sooner or later...<span id='postcolor'> yes i agree Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bn880 5 Posted July 27, 2002 Yes, you have to be aware of the dangers. The airshows are so exciting because of the immense powers at play, and when something goes wrong... adios amigo. Only thing I can say is, those 2 should have stayed in the jet as long as they could have made any manouver to miss people (even if it meant death for them), but as is visible on the tape, they were going to slow and LOW without engine power to steer the aircraft at all. Only thing that would seem reasonable now was to dive steep into the ground, causing dozens less deaths, but u can not expect pilots to know they will not pull out 5 seconds later. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Warin 0 Posted July 27, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ July 27 2002,20:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, you have to be aware of the dangers. The airshows are so exciting because of the immense powers at play, and when something goes wrong... adios amigo. Â Only thing I can say is, those 2 should have stayed in the jet as long as they could have made any manouver to miss people (even if it meant death for them), but as is visible on the tape, they were going to slow and LOW without engine power to steer the aircraft at all. Only thing that would seem reasonable now was to dive steep into the ground, causing dozens less deaths, but u can not expect pilots to know they will not pull out 5 seconds later.<span id='postcolor'> Hum... that's almost impossible to judge properly from a videotape, and even in person I've seen an CF-18 go so slow (seemingly) that it should have fell out of the sky, but it didnt. If I remmber correcty, the Su-27 has exceptionally good low speed flight characteristics, so I dount they were going to slow to maintain control. that's pretty elementary in terms of flying... pilots usually can tell if the aircraft is about to stall. One report says it may have struck an object on the ground just before the crash...anyone seen anything like that? Oh..does anyone have a link to the footage? CNN wants me to subscribe..and I'll be damned if I do Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bn880 5 Posted July 27, 2002 Yes, you have to be aware of the dangers. The airshows are so exciting because of the immense powers at play, and when something goes wrong... adios amigo. Only thing I can say is, those 2 should have stayed in the jet as long as they could have made any manouver to miss people (even if it meant death for them), but as is visible on the tape, they were going to slow and LOW without engine power to steer the aircraft at all. Only thing that would seem reasonable now was to dive steep into the ground, causing dozens less deaths, but u can not expect pilots to know they will not pull out 5 seconds later. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bn880 5 Posted July 27, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ July 27 2002,14:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ July 27 2002,20:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, you have to be aware of the dangers. The airshows are so exciting because of the immense powers at play, and when something goes wrong... adios amigo. Only thing I can say is, those 2 should have stayed in the jet as long as they could have made any manouver to miss people (even if it meant death for them), but as is visible on the tape, they were going to slow and LOW without engine power to steer the aircraft at all. Only thing that would seem reasonable now was to dive steep into the ground, causing dozens less deaths, but u can not expect pilots to know they will not pull out 5 seconds later.<span id='postcolor'> Hum... that's almost impossible to judge properly from a videotape, and even in person I've seen an CF-18 go so slow (seemingly) that it should have fell out of the sky, but it didnt. If I remmber correcty, the Su-27 has exceptionally good low speed flight characteristics, so I dount they were going to slow to maintain control. that's pretty elementary in terms of flying... pilots usually can tell if the aircraft is about to stall. One report says it may have struck an object on the ground just before the crash...anyone seen anything like that? Oh..does anyone have a link to the footage? CNN wants me to subscribe..and I'll be damned if I do <span id='postcolor'> Well, I can't say much to you other than I know what it can do and what it can't. EDIT: I am a good judge of these things wether you believe me or not... EDIT2: If you can't judge dynamics for a video tape, good luck determining anything. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 27, 2002 In Swedish media they are saying that Ukranian media says that one of the engines on the aircraft failed and rendered the aircraft unmaneuvrable. Ah, here we have it, this is the best source so far: Pravda.ru article: My Russian is a bit rusty but they say that the reason for the disaster is that the engines failed at low height and an accident was unavoidable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ran 0 Posted July 27, 2002 i don't know what it says but ...... LOL Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spetsnaz -PELOPES- 0 Posted July 27, 2002 Damn, this aircraft is a rock... Even after the first impact.. look he still an aircraft.. I'm impressed how solid this aircraft is.... very well built.... and the K-36 Ejection Seat perform very well again, let me remember Mig-29 pilot survive, Su-30 (Here It's new seat better than the Mig-29 and Su-27 seat the K-36) pilots survive and all these situations the aircraft were in a very very abnormal situation.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
