Euro is turning people into nazi's :)

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ July 06 2002,18:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The good thing is that people will take care of Europe that have done their studies not only in the village they grew up but in several other countries. "Open-mind" is not just a gay greeting for 2 people being stoned but absolutely fundamental when trying to work with so many nationalities.

The UK is more and isolating from the rest of Europe, I guess this must be visible to anyone! If a certain sense of pride and ideological conservatism is worth this loss, well u judge.

I seriously wonder what all this "prejudice" is about. I seriously give a fuck if I have to work with a Fin or Dutch or whatever eats and shits! (sorry)<span id='postcolor'>

It isn't a matter of prejudice, it is about national independance and the democratic and economic accountability of our rulers to the people of BRITAIN.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Sure, I know what u mean. But independance requires economical strength. The US is independant, we arent! You dont get independance by building walls.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IsthatyouJohnWayne @ July 06 2002,18:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Denoir -i agree with a lot of that.... although i think perhaps communication technology may have improved a little bit  <span id='postcolor'>

Damn, really? And I thought that that you were posting this by pigion!

But on the topic: I don't think and I don't want EU to be a country in its strictest sense. That doesn't however prevent us from cooperating in several fields where we share a common interest (economics, military...). As Albert said, if we want to dicate some of the rules ourselves and not be entirely dominated by America we have to unite since no European country is strong enough to stand up for itself. Now how the EU is run today can be debated, but I think that in the core it is a sound idea.

[ran 0]

agreed with denoir

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">we have to unite since no European country is strong enough to stand up for itself. <span id='postcolor'>

I don't understand, against who?

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

America obviously (as you know perfectly well)

But you also know that British people dont generally feel a pressing need to set up a power block to oppose America.

Hell at least they speak the right language    (well sorta)

Actually europeans are pretty good at being multilingual (especially with english) so it couldnt be made easier for British people in the EU, but we're just pretty insular when it comes to the continent next to us.

Live with it.

There are different forces at work in my mind with the result that half the time (more like 67%) i agree with 'Paratrooper' we're better off independant -live free or die- and all that

But then when my mind transcends nationality(especially during moments of my own or others artistic expression)

i think we'de be better as one world

one love baby

Still i think maybe we're all happier in our nationalist shells, if nothing else it makes life interesting and gives people something to talk about

Why must we join the euro anyway?

Will it collapse without us?

All things considered this country looks pretty good at the moment. Economy ticking over nicely, unemployment very low etc

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IsthatyouJohnWayne @ July 06 2002,19:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Actually europeans are pretty good at being multilingual (especially with english) so it couldnt be made easier for British people in the EU, but we're just pretty insular when it comes to the continent next to us.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, you do live on a bloody island, and I guess the inbreeding is taking its toll

No, but seriously, I think that Britain's problem is pride - if you want to be nice - or delusion - if you want to be mean. Less then 150 years ago you were a world superpower and that sentiment still lives on. The same happened to Sweden during the 19th century. During the 18th century, Sweden was one of Europe's strongest military and commerce powers. Due to the fact that our brilliant rulers didn't want to admit that they had lost that position and refused to adapt properly to the industrial revolution we were an undeveloped country for more then 150 years until the middle of the 20th century. If Britain doesn't wisen up and soberly look at its current position in the world it risks meeting the same fate.

That is why I am saying that Britain actually needs the EU much more then the EU needs Britain...

[ralphwiggum 6]

i have to agree that EU never faced such daunting task since fall of Roman Empire. Never since 1200 A.D. that each country in Europe has to give up it's freedom/distinctiveness in favor of stronger well-being for all.

is it worth the effort? maybe. one thing that would prevent EU from achieving construction of one big block is it's diversity. US never had problem of multi-language and has slight deviation from one state to another, but EU has more diversity and thus more resource is needed to understand each other. sure, some one in Netherlands could talk to neighbors in Germany, but would many ppl go through that on daily basis? I doubt it.

one of the things that could be sacrificed is culture. of course, I'm talking in long run, somewhere around 200 years, should EU become reality now. Thanx to advancements in transportation technology, we can now go from one place to another in shorter time than our ancestors. it took many months for vikings to come to US, but now anyone with enough money can goto US in less than a day.

this means that ideas get exchanged fast, and one entity will influence another. this will undoubtly cause some headache and conflict, not to mention some convergence in culture, a.k.a. loss of distinctiveness.

but is the benefit of EU worth it? I really don't have a clue. If EU wants to be successful, then it needs to sacrifice something, and diversity could be one of them. also, lowering borders would be another one. what will this cause? a fast influx of materials and ideas between countries. this will give new synergy as inew things are imported and exported, but also some with cost.

[ran 0]

EU is firstly and economic entity , the only thing we have to sacrify is each countries's money to make an only money

the goal of the eu is not and has never been to become a single country

the diversity of the europe is one of its strong point

loosing freedom and distinctivness ?? wich fredom and istinctivness , we got different languages , different laws , different ways to think , different type of life , this will never change

you're talking about economic or politic freedom ?

that's right that the EU fix some obligations , we can't do anything we want in our own country , but we can still : decide our laws and make important changes in our economy without even having to ask to the EU parliament or any other institution

ralph , you're american , i don't have anything against that , but i just noticed that the first part of your post is in big part wrong

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That is why I am saying that Britain actually needs the EU much more then the EU needs Britain<span id='postcolor'>

As we pay more in Euro taxes than we recive in "handouts" I can hardly see how this logic works.

Britain is a potent military, nuclear power, we are the fourth largest economy in the world and we have no lust for a part in a "European Junta". We want trade, co-operation, and peace in Europe, this wont be furthered by a European state.

The EU serves it's French and German "masters", "the clingers" Luxembourg and Belgium and the "leechers" of Portugal and Greece but it has nothing to offer Britain.

[ralphwiggum 6]

ran,

i know, iknow...but it's just that when money flows, gov't are more or less influenced by it and get compromised. although EEU is an economic entity, I doubt its effects will remian only in economic sector.

when there are flows of ideas in resources, ppl start to think differently, whether you like it or not.

[Guest]

If I have learned something unexpected from this forums is how there *is* a big difference between what Europeans and Americans think about different issues. There is a factual unity on many topics across the citizens of different European countries. As long as it isn't about football of course

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 06 2002,21:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That is why I am saying that Britain actually needs the EU much more then the EU needs Britain<span id='postcolor'>

As we pay more in Euro taxes than we recive in "handouts" I can hardly see how this logic works.

Britain is a potent military, nuclear power, we are the fourth largest economy in the world and we have no lust for a part in a "European Junta". We want trade, co-operation, and peace in Europe, this wont be furthered by a European state.

The EU serves it's French and German "masters", "the clingers" Luxembourg and Belgium and the "leechers" of Portugal and Greece but it has nothing to offer Britain.<span id='postcolor'>

wow wow wow, nuclear power! That is really an indicator of a "powerful nation" in a modern interpretation.

it doesnt have anything to offer?

What about new combined imigration laws? Since there are thousands of people streaming into the UK uncontrolled a european community can improve such things by making authorities work together: E.g. better cooperation between police.

Furthermore u could live anywhere in Europe if u would like to without any complications concerning resident-permits.

Thirdly you could improve your agricultural conditions, since u pretty much screwed right now. Once a mad-cow desease and all your meat gets banned. This might be different in a participations.

I could list 100dreds of reasons, believe me! But lets wait and see!

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">wow wow wow, nuclear power! That is really an indicator of a "powerful nation" in a modern interpretation.

<span id='postcolor'> I was refering to nuclear weaponry, striping Britain of any real military threat.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Thirdly you could improve your agricultural conditions<span id='postcolor'> You can forget that, I come from a land owning and farming family and I can tell you with certainty that the Common Agricultural Policy has been a disaster for British farming!

As for illegal immigration; Europe's open borders, refugee camps and lack luster customs officials are the problem there.

[ran 0]

BBBBAAAAAAHH leave them on their island ...... lol j/k

i have to agree about the paratrooper's point about agriculture

the common agricultural politic was meant for high productivity agriculture , not considering environnement and other "minor" things , this politic is about 50 years old , that drove to the disaster we know (end of the 80's-90's) and needs a reform (note that it has already started , now the priority is quality of the product and of the environnement instead of quantity , new treatment methods , the ecology really counts now) but the aagricultural politic of the EU still needs some improvements , especially about the income of farmers , the concurrence and other things

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 07 2002,00:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">wow wow wow, nuclear power! That is really an indicator of a "powerful nation" in a modern interpretation.

<span id='postcolor'> I was refering to nuclear weaponry, striping Britain of any real military threat.<span id='postcolor'>

That is of no relevance today. There is no real threat against any European country today. What matters are your offensive capabilities for international action and they are looking pretty bleak today. There is no way that Britain could handle a Falklands war today. It will be even worse in the future.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Thirdly you could improve your agricultural conditions<span id='postcolor'> You can forget that, I come from a land owning and farming family and I can tell you with certainty that the Common Agricultural Policy has been a disaster for British farming!<span id='postcolor'>

Not only for Britain. The EU agricultural policy has been a disaster from day one. It is truly a joke. But by being in the EU Britain can influence it to the better. Standing outside will only hurt you since the EU is pretty isolationist when it comes to trade. You'll just get your products boycotted.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As for illegal immigration; Europe's open borders, refugee camps and lack luster customs officials are the problem there.<span id='postcolor'>

Well yes. Again, you live on an island so your problem is different from the mainland's.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There is no way that Britain could handle a Falklands war today. It will be even worse in the future.

<span id='postcolor'> Well that's just plain wrong, our Armed forces are more capable and the future holds: Super carriers, Eurofighter, Vengance class submarines and the Joint Strike Fighter to name a few defence assets coming in the future.

Sweden may need Germany for a sense of military power but Britain does not.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 07 2002,01:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There is no way that Britain could handle a Falklands war today. It will be even worse in the future.

<span id='postcolor'>  Well that's just plain wrong, our Armed forces are more capable and the future holds: Super carriers, Eurofighter, Vengance class submarines and the Joint Strike Fighter to name a few defence assets coming in the future.

Sweden may need Germany for a sense of military power but Britain does not.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, you are very wrong there. From 1974 to 1999 Britain reduced its armed forces by more then 200%.

I'd like just to point out an irony of your post:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Eurofighter<span id='postcolor'>

I have seen British soldiers in the field: bad logistics (due to poor economy), old equipment etc. The French are about 20 years ahead of you when it comes to adapting modern gear.

Britain has always had very good soldiers, unfortunately they are not well equipped. In the end that is why there have always many British casulties in recent armed conflicts.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sweden may need Germany for a sense of military power but Britain does not<span id='postcolor'>

Better Germany then USA that Britain relies on.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In the end that is why there have always many British casulties in recent armed conflicts.<span id='postcolor'> Such as?

I have no problem with the Eurofighter, or Europe, we just don't need to be run by them. The Eurofighter is a superb plane, the RAF will be much more potent fot it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Better Germany then USA that Britain relies on. <span id='postcolor'> In what way does Germany's military surpass America's? or even Britain's for that matter?

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 07 2002,02:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Better Germany then USA that Britain relies on. <span id='postcolor'> In what way does Germany's military surpass America's? or even Britain's for that matter?<span id='postcolor'>

less pride , less words , more efficiency

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ July 07 2002,02:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 07 2002,02:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Better Germany then USA that Britain relies on. <span id='postcolor'> In what way does Germany's military surpass America's? or even Britain's for that matter?<span id='postcolor'>

less pride , less words , more efficiency<span id='postcolor'>

Less power! Less technology and next to no influence on world military events.

[KingBeast 0]

I think that Germany would make an extremely potent fighting force with those caracteristics, but they just dont have the modern day experience (do they?)

And at the end of the day, none of these nations have been to war on a large scale for a long time, and you always get surprises.

The British have a knack for going completely against the odds and winning. Thats all im saying in defence of Britain

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 06 2002,21:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The EU serves it's French and German "masters", "the clingers" Luxembourg and Belgium and the "leechers" of Portugal and Greece but it has nothing to offer Britain.<span id='postcolor'>

I beg your ****ing pardon, but call my country a "leech" again and you are in DEEP SHIT    

WTF do you know about what Greece contributes anyway? Go to Tesco's and Sainsbury's and have a GOOD look around: Greek Oil, Greek Ouzo, Greek Feta and LOADS more  

And the fact that we contributed more than any other culture to human kind by inventing most of modern day civilization...does this still make us leeches??

I like Britain, I like it a lot, but what I don't like are xenophobic and arrogant and self-righteous right-wing idiots

[KingBeast 0]

Hey you! Feta Cheese Stinks!!!

*me runs*

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ July 07 2002,03:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hey you! Feta Cheese Stinks!!!

*me runs*<span id='postcolor'>