AI-mods or original AI?

[_qor 11]

Hey there,

hope I'm posting in the right forum! Otherwise pls move...

I was asking myself if all the AI mods outside there, have kinda over-skilled AI.

E.g, when I hide in the woods and get attacked by enemy forces, I really have to search hard before I get the position of the attackers.

The other way around: when I attack a squad, the AI seems to know instantly where I hide. Independent from their skill level which only affects - my experiences - how fast and precise the AI shoots, even though they have already detected your position! That may be alright, but playing without any AI mod (original BIS AI), the AI acts more like myself hiding in the woods and get attacked. They seem to search a while before really detecting my position!

Besides, it feels like the AI can look through grass, plants and even fences.

What is your experience?

Is there any AI mod out there which really includes realistic, well-balanced AI?

Or is the original BIS AI a good choice?

Is it possible to change only the detection-skill of the AI?

EDIT: I was most talking about ASR AI but I also tried Zeus and SLX AI but I heard they stopped developing so I didnt make further attempts with them.

Edited September 13, 2012 by _qoR

[maturin 12]

Whenever AI spot you too well, it's probably due to the flaws of BIS' systems. AI mods tend to make them spot players at longer distances, but almost never make them more alert than even the most careless human. So I wouldn't worry about that.

I recommend ASR AI, which is configurable and in continuing development.

There is no conceivable excuse for ever running vanilla AI.

Besides, it feels like the AI can look through grass, plants and even fences.

That's a negative with certain caveats. Some grass and plants are glitched, while ACR DLC may have broken Chernarus foliage.

[Gunter Severloh 4017]

As suggested along with ASR AI there is Infantry Stealth and Recognition Skills

http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=9604

with this addon you can configure each class/faction of soldier to respond based on real world skill, or as it says that page:

- Audible - How loud a unit is when moving

- Camouflage - How easy a unit is to see

- Sensitivity - How well and how far the given unit senses other units

- SensitivityEar - How well can the given unit hear others units

all these are done via userconfig, the thread for this http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?95484-Infantry-Stealth-and-Recognition-Skills-Mod

if you read through a few pages, it is better explained has examples of how it works as well as a userconfig is posted.

For an AI reference of addons,mods, scripts, ect,. for Arma2, and Arma2CO check out my AI compilation list

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?117674-AI-Compilation-List-of-Addons-Mods-Scripts-amp-Misc

[seba1976 98]

There is no conceivable excuse for ever running vanilla AI.

1) Development.

2) Performance.

3) Compatibility.

4) A sense of purity :) ?

That's a negative with certain caveats. Some grass and plants are glitched, while ACR DLC may have broken Chernarus foliage.

Depending on your definition of "grass", but if you exclude bushes, AI don't care for grass at all (that's why some people turn it off completely, ugly as hell). Bushes and trees do block AI line of sight, but the shape of the blocking tree or bush is never the same as the shape you "see", so the AI can see better than you in some cases, and worst than you in others. Nevertheless, as it has been pointed out many times since the release of Armed Assault (that's Arma 1 for some), you're not suppossed to use grass, bushes and trees for cover.

[maturin 12]

1) Development.

Only the most rigid and scripted missions need to rely on the brainless vanilla AI.

2) Performance.

3) Compatibility.

Never really had this problem with subtle mods like Zeus or ASR, and I have a weak CPU.

4) A sense of purity :) ?

That must be the sense of rawness and purity Bear Grylls gets when he drinks his own piss.

Depending on your definition of "grass", but if you exclude bushes, AI don't care for grass at all (that's why some people turn it off completely, ugly as hell).

*deep sigh*

You are over a year out of date. Grass now blocks AI vision better than human vision in many cases, and it has always added to camouflage values. Turning it off is now blatant cheating, although the capabilities of humans and AI are so disparate that I can't get too worked up over it.

Nevertheless, as it has been pointed out many times since the release of Armed Assault (that's Arma 1 for some), you're not suppossed to use grass, bushes and trees for cover.

Because of the AI's (general) reluctance to engage through foliage, I feel as safe behind smoke and and leaves as I do behind concrete.

[Rydygier 1309]

Never really had this problem with subtle mods like Zeus or ASR, and I have a weak CPU.

Depends - what we call "weak", and how many units is on the map. I had sometimes significant impact on my PC beacuse of AI addons (compared same mission with and without addons). If addon is sqf based, then the problem is other scripts executing delays. If not scheduled code is used - FPS decrease...

BTW today did some tests for low-level AI. Was messing a bit with these new LOS script commands to familiarize with them, and made some kind of own findCover for terrain and objects (probably similar, byt simplified and heavier than this included in COSLX) and fire density increaser (similar to TPW's LOS, but not without reason called "Rambo", as its purpose is to make chosen units as dangerous as possible without "cheats"), then, for comparing, ran same mission on pure vanilla and maximal skills to see, what default AI is capable of. Somehow I've never watched this aspect analytically before. There was some sandbags, ballots and such needed in tests. Was positively suprised by vanilla AI. Currently they do quite fine work with cover using objects not perfect of course, but as for me - at least sufficiently well. I was suprised, how nicely they stick to the sandbags. Kill proportions also wasn't worse and quite good. Perhaps in other environment vanilla perform worse, I do not know. Usually I'm to busy with killing or dying for checking, how good enemy perform tactics.

Turning it off is now blatant cheating,

Or, as in my case, important part of FPS saving.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Rydygier

[maturin 12]

All the brains are in the vanilla AI, they are just uselessly configured to be blind beyond 300m and refuse to engage with rifles beyond 150m.

Or, as in my case, important part of FPS saving.

Turning off the trees and bushes would save FPS too.

[delta99 34]

That's a negative with certain caveats. Some grass and plants are glitched, while ACR DLC may have broken Chernarus foliage.

Yikes, is there evidence or discussion of this somewhere? Should I disable ACR then normally if I am not using any units or missions that require it??

[maturin 12]

Yikes, is there evidence or discussion of this somewhere? Should I disable ACR then normally if I am not using any units or missions that require it??

A thread on the bugtracker claims that it is so. I didn't have time to carefully test, but a few quick checks makes me think that they're right. Disturbingly, the ticket hasn't gotten any attention.

[Rydygier 1309]

Turning off the trees and bushes would save FPS too.

True. However even better results for FPS I noticed, when whole game is turned off. Seriously - grass for me is only FPS-costly ornament, I can easily enjoy playing without grass... and, on the other hand, hard to play with grass - FPS going to low, so choice here is obvious, bye bye to grass...

[katipo66 94]

I like vanilla, or if I use a mod then slx purely for it's find cover feature... It's the only mod where I consistently see ai move quickly from open ground to cover when under fire.

I don't mind vanilla engagement distances, probably cos I don't use scoped weapons much.

I've tested most combinations of most of ai mods on desert with lots of objects placed for cover and me watching up in the tower, apart from engagement distances I was never convinced that there was any great difference in 'intelligence' when in a firefight apart from slx where finding cover seemed to be priority.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Katipo66

[Rydygier 1309]

I was curious, so checked SLX's findCover code, is quite sophisticated, as takes into account many hiding possibilites, it is achievment, that is not so heavy with all this. Not studied its logic deeply though, there are also inactive additional capabilities, turned off "for performance". Generally in my opinion priority depends on distance. If enemy is very close first should be immediate shot at enemy (when you cannot run quick enough to avoid enemy fire before reach any hiding), and then run for cover, if still necessary; otherwise first should be finding cover. I would try to do this that way in such situations.

[delta99 34]

A thread on the bugtracker claims that it is so. I didn't have time to carefully test, but a few quick checks makes me think that they're right. Disturbingly, the ticket hasn't gotten any attention.

Do you have a link handy?

[maturin 12]

https://dev-heaven.net/issues/39946#change-144577

[katipo66 94]

there are also inactive additional capabilities, turned off "for performance".

Oh interesting, didnt know that, do you mean 'Turned off' they are //commented out, anyway something to go and look at.

[seba1976 98]

Only the most rigid and scripted missions need to rely on the brainless vanilla AI.

Nope, it's a fundamental thing when you design, to know what kind of AI response you will get, and so, whether the player will be using some AI mod or not. The simpler hack of increase AI engagement range will trash your work if your development game wasn't set up as the player's. If you never had the issue, I'll take you're an ACE fundamentalist. Not that there is anything wrong with it :).

Never really had this problem with subtle mods like Zeus or ASR, and I have a weak CPU.

*deep sigh*

ASR stopped being subtle since 1.15, and 1.16 will even move the AI around to reinforce other squads, man statics, etc. It's impact on FPS was noticed by many guys with really weak CPUs.

That must be the sense of rawness and purity Bear Grylls gets when he drinks his own piss.

OK I don't know any Bear Grylls and for the sound of it I guess it's better like that, but the point about "purity" was follow by a smiling emoticon, meaning I knew that part was not a reason, and something subjective that some people may like. For instance, if you never played with vanilla anymore, you don't know where it stands today, so you can't really talk about it. It's funny (and unfair to BIS) to see how many people mistake good vanilla responses, with their beloved mods (like ACE or ASR), just because they can't tell what's what anymore, and assume everything good is their mod's and everything bad is BIS's.

*deep sigh*

You are over a year out of date. Grass now blocks AI vision better than human vision in many cases, and it has always added to camouflage values.

Nothing regarding grass improvement has ever been mentioned in any change log. The exact calculation has never been explained (as you can expect) but it's just that, a coefficient included in the equation to determined the visibility of a unit, no line of sight calculated for grass.

Because of the AI's (general) reluctance to engage through foliage, I feel as safe behind smoke and leaves as I do behind concrete.

The AI is reluctant to engage through foliage, true, but the foliage you see or the foliage they see? Just be safe and use proper, bullet proof cover.

[maturin 12]

Nope, it's a fundamental thing when you design, to know what kind of AI response you will get, and so, whether the player will be using some AI mod or not. The simpler hack of increase AI engagement range will trash your work if your development game wasn't set up as the player's. If you never had the issue, I'll take you're an ACE fundamentalist. Not that there is anything wrong with it :).

A mission that relies on the AI not spotting or engaging the player at farther than 300m is either a newbish, bad mission, or you're trying to do something that's rigidly scripted. I'm currently developing a mission that is more like an interactive story, where the goal is to escape carefully-managed encounters without getting in firefights. I turn off ASR for that, but really, if there's supposed to be a war on, a longer engagement envelope and better use of cover should not be capable of breaking things.

ASR stopped being subtle since 1.15, and 1.16 will even move the AI around to reinforce other squads, man statics, etc. It's impact on FPS was noticed by many guys with really weak CPUs.

Dual core 2.53 is around minimum specs, no? Anyways, sounds like you haven't bothered to open up the configs and disable things you don't want.

Nothing regarding grass improvement has ever been mentioned in any change log. The exact calculation has never been explained (as you can expect) but it's just that, a coefficient included in the equation to determined the visibility of a unit, no line of sight calculated for grass.

I did wonder why they never publicized the change. It was in a beta, and you had to read the ticket. If you haven't noticed, you must never play on Chernarus. AI prone in grass are now almost entirely blind, because the height of the grass can obstruct LoS checks at their body.

[Rydygier 1309]

Oh interesting, didnt know that, do you mean 'Turned off' they are //commented out, anyway something to go and look at.

These are commented out. Not so much of them, I see now. Mostly two additional checks.

[seba1976 98]

A mission that relies on the AI not spotting or engaging the player at farther than 300m is either a newbish, bad mission, or you're trying to do something that's rigidly scripted. I'm currently developing a mission that is more like an interactive story, where the goal is to escape carefully-managed encounters without getting in firefights. I turn off ASR for that, but really, if there's supposed to be a war on, a longer engagement envelope and better use of cover should not be capable of breaking things.

So it shouldn't but it would break your mission at this time? :p Nevermind, I believe we both know what each other is taking about. I've just finished to script a framework for Takistan (to simulate enemy activity, inserting and extracting long range mountain patrols, village supply network, etc.) just to run a special ops task manager on top of that, and I had to go with vanilla AI or everyone in Taki knew where we were and send something to intercept us. For combat generators, on the other hand, I try to use some AI mod one way or the other. So yeah, I know what you mean, but the point remains, that there are reasons to play with vanilla AI.

Dual core 2.53 is around minimum specs, no? Anyways, sounds like you haven't bothered to open up the configs and disable things you don't want.

Quad core 2.4 here, and it can't cope with 24 vs. 24 in urban CQB combat situations (my kind of combat generators.) Had to put a dedi server just to keep playing that with ASR. Everything is sweet again :). If you don't believe me just send them to fight around the big mezquita in Bastam, you'll see.

I did wonder why they never publicized the change. It was in a beta, and you had to read the ticket. If you haven't noticed, you must never play on Chernarus. AI prone in grass are now almost entirely blind, because the height of the grass can obstruct LoS checks at their body.

I play mostly on Cherna, but those things are difficult to notice actually. Last word I had was no LoS for grass. If the change was introduced, may explain lots of performance issues I was having with latest patches. I'd like to see that ticket if you have a link.