flight model editing

[nightsta1ker 10]

Success. I have successfully edited and tested xml changes in game. Now I just need to play with it for a while.

Armored Sheep, I have tried some of your suggestions as well as some of heli_flying's with mixed results. I think I need to change my joystick senstitivity settings too. It definitely is starting to feel better. I don't think the Light heli will take NEARLY as much work as the other two will as I feel it just needs a few tweaks.

[heli_flying 10]

i found a clue the last night about the ground effect:

<Blades twist="-6">

<LiftCoefficient>

0 0.5 1.0 1.8 3.0 5.0 <----height from the ground in meters

-180 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0

-176 0.5133 0.5133 0.5133 0.5133 0.5133 0.5133

-168 0.725 0.725 0.725 0.725 0.725 0.855

-160 0.665 0.665 0.665 0.665 0.665 0.665

-152 0.875 0.875 0.875 0.875 0.875 0.875

-144 0.8525 0.8525 0.8525 0.8525 0.8525 0.8525

-136 0.7225 0.7225 0.7225 0.7225 0.7225 0.7225

the last column are the values the rotor will use above this height, the same for the drag

[nightsta1ker 10]

Have you figured out how to increase descent rate with lowered collective? I would imagine it would be lift due to AoA, but I cannot seem to get the desired effect.

[heli_flying 10]

in this lines:

</Blades>

<Controls A1UL="6.5" A1LL="-6.5" B1UL="13" B1LL="-13.0" thetaLL="8" thetaUL="17.3" useExtendedCollectiveRange="false" />

</AerodynamicFeatures>

</Rotor>

A1= roll control input left/ right limit

B1= pitch control input forward/backward limit

thetaLL= collective lower limit

thetaUL= collective upper limit

[nightsta1ker 10]

in this lines:

</Blades>

<Controls A1UL="6.5" A1LL="-6.5" B1UL="13" B1LL="-13.0" thetaLL="8" thetaUL="17.3" useExtendedCollectiveRange="false" />

</AerodynamicFeatures>

</Rotor>

A1= roll control input left/ right limit

B1= pitch control input forward/backward limit

thetaLL= collective lower limit

thetaUL= collective upper limit

Oh nice! I was wondering what those were but hadn't tried messing wih them yet! Thanks! That's my last real issue with the light heli and I will be moving on to the medium.

[heli_flying 10]

there is a manual from rtdynamics page:

http://www.rtdynamics.com/v2/wp/2008/rotorlib-fdm/

click in evaluate, follow the installation instructions and look for the programmers guide 3.1.1 this explain with detail every value in the .xml file

Edited November 18, 2011 by heli_flying
note: the next reply is the same and more easy ;)

[armored_sheep 56]

RTDynamics allowed us to publish part of their documentation related to helicopter flight model config (XML). You can see this now in comunity wiki http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Helicopter_Flight_Model_Config_(XML)

[zentaos 10]

regarding PBO files...

can I just make a backup of any PBO in the addon folder, store it elsewhere, and overwrite the original file with a modified one?

[OMAC 254]

Attached complete pack of XML files for all helicopters.

Dampeners at least for yaw control cannot be set to 0 as it brakes autotrim.

More investigation is needed at the controlers part of the XML.

Armored_Sheep,

Just to make sure, have the xmls in your (second) zip file been modified to remove the dampeners like they were in your first zipped xml pack?

I tried your FM without the dampeners from your first zipped xml pack, and my conclusion is that the dampeners are needed for flying! :eek: But seeing the difference is cool.

Thanks

[armored_sheep 56]

For tweeking XML there is no need for binarizing the data. My files are not binarized, you can edit them in notepad and see what values are there.

Removing dampeners makes the controler response quicker but also harder to fly by players that are not used to fly real helicopters.

[OMAC 254]

For tweeking XML there is no need for binarizing the data. My files are not binarized, you can edit them in notepad and see what values are there.

Removing dampeners makes the controler response quicker but also harder to fly by players that are not used to fly real helicopters.

Yes, but are the xmls in your second zipfile the original, unaltered, 1.02 FMs, or have you altered them? That would save me having to diff them with the originals; I couldn't tell from your message if they had been altered or not.

With kb/mouse only, flying without the dampeners is not recommended, at least by me - you wheel all over the place.

[armored_sheep 56]

regarding PBO files...

can I just make a backup of any PBO in the addon folder, store it elsewhere, and overwrite the original file with a modified one?

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Addons

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/modfolders

[armored_sheep 56]

Here is an improved medium helicopter flight model config XML. Major part of changes were made to match the virtual helicopter closer to real counterpart in dimensions and tail rotor RPM.

Unzip the folder and put it in your game root next to exe. Flight model should work for all difficulty settings. Tx in advance for your feedback.

[-DirTyDeeDs--Ziggy- 0]

thanks!

from my quick run just now and my dirty keyboard/mouse poser perspective :p, I notice :

time it takes to sustain damage at 100% collective increased.

tendency to right roll decreased

right yaw with + collective increased

I cant seem to find a situation where I need right pedal, shouldn't 0% collective require it?

In my non-pilot poser opinion, these changes are good, but I think it needs more left yaw when lower collective is used, so I am forced to use right pedal when landing.

Edited December 2, 2011 by [DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

[b101_uk 10]

i have quite a nice flying medium helicopter with all the correct engine, rotor, RPM, torque, blade chord, radius etc etc, but i am just waiting for the multi-engine torque vs. damage vs. gauge handling is functioning properly/logically.

AS, have you applied any form of “handicapping†specifically relating to the medium heli to curtail excess performance outside of the xml file e.g. coded in the .exe or e.g. a hidden weight factor, or have invoked drivetrain loss as I need 8% to 10% more lift while retaining the currant loads and it’s not collective pitch but its acting/performing like its 450kg to heavy (i.e. 5850kg vs. 5398kg) in a hover by my maths but once moving its about right :confused:

[armored_sheep 56]

New version, with updated moments of inertia.

Fix of torque gauge is independent on XML and flight model physics.

It will be done in model.cfg + new packed p3d model so experts that fly without artificial gauges are not confused.

[-DirTyDeeDs--Ziggy- 0]

I remind you, my input is that of a non-pilot using keyboard/mouse. (more pilots using flight sticks should try this and give feedback, imo.)

The only change I can detect is the medium helicopter feels lighter, like you reduced its empty weight. It has a more twitchy control.

I feel like it has too much tendency to roll right at about 50% collective with no trim set, and not enough yaw left with collective down to zero (landing).

? Doesn't landing require some right pedal?

Edited December 6, 2011 by [DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

New version, with updated moments of inertia.

Fix of torque gauge is independent on XML and flight model physics.

It will be done in model.cfg + new packed p3d model so experts that fly without artificial gauges are not confused.

well there's at least some torque that requires left pedal on take off but not enough, also the right roll is now out of control. you might be simulating translating tendency but the helicopter doesn't roll like that, it drifts. i think it's due to the FM not programmed correctly in terms of how the blade and the airframe is connected together. see here's how it should work, imagine if you bought a small model helicopter and you removed the main rotor blades from the helo and tied a string to it on one end and the other end to the top of where the main rotor is suppose to connect to the airframe. now hold the rotor blades and let the helo dangle, the helo should be level. now move the main rotors around like if we were moving the cyclic, the helicopter doesn't bank when you move the rotors around and that's how it should behave. the reason why we're able to bank the helicopter in real life is because the airframe is following where the rotor disc is flying to. there's a saying when you fly helicopters you don't fly the airframe you fly the rotor disc.

---------- Post added at 09:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:19 AM ----------

-Ziggy-;2067198']I remind you' date=' my input is that of a non-pilot using keyboard/mouse. (more pilots using flight sticks should try this and give feedback, imo.)

The only change I can detect is the medium helicopter feels lighter, like you reduced its empty weight. It has a more twitchy control.

I feel like it has too much tendency to roll right at about 50% collective with no trim set, and not enough yaw left with collective down to zero (landing).

? Doesn't landing require some right pedal?[/quote']

landing doesn't require right pedal, descending requires right pedal. the actual hover to landing requires left pedal because you're maintaining a hover and slowly setting your helo skids to touch down.

[armored_sheep 56]

Attached another tweek that changes tail rotor angles - as a result the helicopter should not need right pedal imput when descenting on zero collective.

About the bank side effect I cannot judge the RLIB calculations because this is black box for me, but I can imagine that the right roll can be also caused by other things. For example tail rotor has vertical offset from the center of gravity and main rotor center. Such arm can probably cause a banking.

[armored_sheep 56]

Tail Rotor Roll (from http://www.griffin-helicopters.co.uk/note/tailrotor.htm)

Tail rotor roll is a tendency for the helicopter to rotate about its vertical center of gravity (CofG). The amount of roll is dependant upon the vertical offset of the tail rotor from the vertical CofG, and the magnitude of the tail rotor thrust applied. The direction of the roll is dependant upon whether or the not the tail rotor lies above or below the vertical CofG, above will result in a roll towards the advancing side, and below will result in a roll towards the retreating side.

[-DirTyDeeDs--Ziggy- 0]

landing doesn't require right pedal, descending requires right pedal. the actual hover to landing requires left pedal because you're maintaining a hover and slowly setting your helo skids to touch down.

Ok, descending requires right pedal.

That's what i meant when I asked if landing requires right pedal.

*I havent tried Medium hsmi beta3 yet

How are we to determine a helicopters CofG?

Edited December 6, 2011 by [DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

[b101_uk 10]

if anyone wants to try my medium heli here it is, it’s using quasi engine setup temporarily which is basically one engine one engine of twice the correct power and the second engine has a token 1hp/1nm until the torque gauge needles get fixed etc.

90% on the right half of the torque gauge (labelled as engine) is the mast torque at take-off power as the needles are mixed up!

There is ~10% deficiency in lift (hover) at MTOW for the given power/torque/weight and rotor RPM, as if it weighs 450kg to 550kg than it should or that TKoH is reporting via the debug console, hence my question a few posts back. ;) :rolleyes:

The .xml is heavily commented with info etc.

http://webspace.ssesurf.co.uk/~m.todd/Medium_heli_test_1.zip

[armored_sheep 56]

Attached pls find recent patch candidate XML´s for flight models of medium and light helicopters. Thanks Nightstalker and B101 too! I used some of your tweeks in light helicopter XML (ground contact and rotors).

Some other changes will come to patch2 together with XMLs (ground efect reduction, medium helicopter torque gauge) but those things has to be set elswhere, not in XML.

[jedra 11]

Attached pls find recent patch candidate XML´s for flight models of medium and light helicopters. Thanks Nightstalker and B101 too! I used some of your tweeks in light helicopter XML (ground contact and rotors).

Some other changes will come to patch2 together with XMLs (ground efect reduction, medium helicopter torque gauge) but those things has to be set elswhere, not in XML.

Excellent, will give these a go over the weekend in between testing the Arma 2 OA RC2!!

[Trigen 10]

Doing Hoist training mission with HDR at very high will give you a complete white screen when flying into the sun. Normal working fine.

First impression of the patch2 xml in the 400 trainer (medium aswell) is very good from my perspective, much more stable. Flying expert of course

Big thank you and hopefully the real pilots will have some proper feedback.

Edited December 9, 2011 by Trigen
typos