Flight dynamics (important issues)

[DenisFerrari 10]

Here what I have gathered so far. Flight dynamics are being addressed right now for an upcoming patch. I also have some insight into why there were behavior discrepancies in the first place. Creating an accurate flight model o a specific aircraft takes a significant amount time and resources and considering these aircraft are fictional, and there were time and budget constraints, the FMs came out unconvincing. After having some discussion with RTD about blade element theory and it's relationship to the aircraft, I feel that the flight PHYSICS regarding the rotor have been modeled correctly, but there are missing pieces from the equation that created an unnatural feel. To sum it up: the rotorsystem does some pretty crazy stuff up there above the body o he helicopter, but due to mechanical hinges in the rotor system it is allowed to do those things without overly affecting flight controls or disturbing the airframe. The body of the helicopter HANGS from the rotor system like a pendulum (yes, I've given this spiel before), so gravity dampens alot of the effects the rotorsystem would inflict on it if the connection were more rigid. In fact early helicopters had his problem, and before they created flapping hinges helicopters could not move into forward flight, they would roll over.

In any case, these issues ARE being addressed. Those guys at RTD are pretty sharp. And BIS is taking this seriously.

Excellent, good news!

I'm quite sure that in not a lot of time we'll have a good patch for FD!

[Chris CDN 10]

In any case, these issues ARE being addressed. Those guys at RTD are pretty sharp. And BIS is taking this seriously.

Thank f*ck. Hopefully someone at BI is mailing you a case of beer right now.

[zoog 18]

That's good to hear :)

[jedra 11]

Oh god, does this mean I have to learn how to land again ;-)

Seriously, well done everyone - to BI, RTD and nightsa1ker - great example of the community and developers working together.

[-DirTyDeeDs--Ziggy- 0]

In any case, these issues ARE being addressed. Those guys at RTD are pretty sharp. And BIS is taking this seriously.

I'm glad you finally realize what I have been suggesting all along. ;)

I have witnessed this cooperation with BIS and it's community since OFP, and the fact that BIS would partner with a company that share similar values is not surprising.

[nightsta1ker 10]

The results of the patch still may not be perfect, but another thing on the horizon is a guideline/manual for tweaking the FM so the community can do it on their own. Between what BIS and RTD are doing, and what the community can do, I see the possibility of highly realistic models coming out within the year (pending interest from the modding community of course).

And for goodness sake.... Stop thanking me, you guys... All I have done is whine and complain! One thing I learned in kindergarten, the one with the loudest, most annoying voice gets the attention!

[Wokka 1]

Hey all

Just wanted to let you all know I'm happy to give any pointers when it comes to flight dynamics. It sounds like there's a lot of good ideas and valid concerns floating around. I too am massively disappointed with the flight model. I know what needs to be done but have limited knowledge of coding and modifying the flight model files within TOH.

I'd be happy to test any modified flight models or answer any questions.

My credentials are below

Current RAF Chinook Pilot

700 hrs Chinook, 3 tours of Afghanistan.

1000 hrs Sea King, Search and Rescue.

100 Hrs Griffin (Bell 412 EP).

50 Hrs Squirrel (Eurocopter AS-350).

[froggyluv 2130]

Oh god, does this mean I have to learn how to land again ;-)

Seriously, well done everyone - to BI, RTD and nightsa1ker - great example of the community and developers working together.

+1 on all counts!

[nightsta1ker 10]

Hey all

Just wanted to let you all know I'm happy to give any pointers when it comes to flight dynamics. It sounds like there's a lot of good ideas and valid concerns floating around. I too am massively disappointed with the flight model. I know what needs to be done but have limited knowledge of coding and modifying the flight model files within TOH.

I'd be happy to test any modified flight models or answer any questions.

My credentials are below

Current RAF Chinook Pilot

700 hrs Chinook, 3 tours of Afghanistan.

1000 hrs Sea King, Search and Rescue.

100 Hrs Griffin (Bell 412 EP).

50 Hrs Squirrel (Eurocopter AS-350).

You boys in Her Majesty's service sure can fly those Chinooks. I crewed on them in Iraq and Afghanistan and still work on them every day. They are an incredible machine. I do prefer our G models though :D

[b101_uk 10]

Wile there are some problems with the rotor systems and how they are functioning in game is giving some weird characteristics it is NOT the only cause, changing things with the rotors is only masking things and will in essence be wrong even if they “feel†right.

e.g. the default light helicopter is putting out lorry like engine torque for a given HP but the RPM’s just don’t mathematically compute into the real world, on the other hand you could say it’s putting out car like HP at car like RPM’s but the torque is absurdly high so just doesn’t mathematically compute into the real world, or on the other hand you could say it’s putting out large turbine like torque at low power shaft (Np) RPM’s but the HP figure is absurd low so just doesn’t mathematically compute into the real world, and you can say that about all the helicopters and it WILL affect things.

I have gone through the light helicopter xml file and just dealt with the fundamentals outside of the blade system and associated lifts/drags/etc and now have a light helicopter that hits the specs for MD500D with 250-C20R/1 engine in Np\N2 RPM, torque, gear ratio’s, effective rated power, effective governed power, and got the torque gauge to show them properly, it has the correct maximum OGE hover altitude vs. weight (ISA day), and it has an appropriate clime rate at 60kts, I have even much reduced its propensity to nose-over in a ground slide.

From an aesthetic/pilot point of view more management of torque is needed, as any “aggressive†flight pushes the torque gauge around as the rotor load fluctuate, the same is true of the Nr\N2 rpms.

As for the medium heli with corrected aspects like the above it is a joy to fly but requires more testing to fix another problem which the light and heavy don’t have relating to some value hidden of weight that’s not fuel or passengers that amounts to ~600kg.

[jedra 11]

@b101_uk

You might want to chip in in this thread where they are discussing and posting their tweaks of the XML files with one of the BI guys. A few people would be interested in flying your tweaks.

[nightsta1ker 10]

@b101_uk

You might want to chip in in this thread where they are discussing and posting their tweaks of the XML files with one of the BI guys. A few people would be interested in flying your tweaks.

Yes I would be very interested in flying your tweak. Please copy and put it in your spoiler! Any work that gets is closer to solving the root issues the sooner we can start creating new cool stuff and having some real fun!

[b101_uk 10]

100 Hrs Griffin (Bell 412 EP).

50 Hrs Squirrel (Eurocopter AS-350).

Was that at Shawbury?

As I see them almost every day playing.

---------- Post added at 10:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 PM ----------

@b101_uk

You might want to chip in in this thread where they are discussing and posting their tweaks of the XML files with one of the BI guys. A few people would be interested in flying your tweaks.

i hadn’t seen that part of the forum :o, makes you wonder why they didn’t put it in the "TAKE ON HELICOPTERS" bit rather than in the "OTHER BI GAMES FORUMS" bit :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 10:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 PM ----------

Yes I would be very interested in flying your tweak. Please copy and put it in your spoiler! Any work that gets is closer to solving the root issues the sooner we can start creating new cool stuff and having some real fun!

I will, but it would have to be a .zip file to unpack into your "take on helicopters" root folder, as its 2 files one of which is binarized.

Just need to do a little more testing of it (remember I am dealing with things outside of the blades, i.e. what leads up to them, so errors relating to the blades themselves will still exist but the engine dynamics will be “more†correct to work off)

[nightsta1ker 10]

Was that at Shawbury?

As I see them almost every day playing.

---------- Post added at 10:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 PM ----------

i hadn’t seen that part of the forum :o, makes you wonder why they didn’t put it in the "TAKE ON HELICOPTERS" bit rather than in the "OTHER BI GAMES FORUMS" bit :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 10:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 PM ----------

I will, but it would have to be a .zip file to unpack into your "take on helicopters" root folder, as its 2 files one of which is binarized.

Just need to do a little more testing of it (remember I am dealing with things outside of the blades, i.e. what leads up to them, so errors relating to the blades themselves will still exist but the engine dynamics will be “more†correct to work off)

No no. You don't need to send me the file... Just open it in notepad, copy and paste it here on the forum. I can copy and paste it into my file, turn it into a PBO and drop it in my TOH folder. Takes moments for both of us. No hassle.

[b101_uk 10]

No no. You don't need to send me the file... Just open it in notepad, copy and paste it here on the forum. I can copy and paste it into my file, turn it into a PBO and drop it in my TOH folder. Takes moments for both of us. No hassle.

The helicopter has 2 modified files, the xml which could be posted as you say, the other file is binarized as TKoH won’t read the same file in txt form and the amount of txt within it along with any special formatting/headers or white space (unknown characters) would be lost beside probably exceeding the maximum characters in a forum post.

So it would have to be posted as a link to a .zip file.

As for repacking your .pbo with new files, why? There is no need, as files created in “HSim\ Air_US_H\ Helicopters_Light†placed in the TKoH root directory will override files of the same name packed in “AddOns\air_us_h.pbo†for testing leaving the default “air_us_h.pbo†unaffected.

e.g. In other words:

C:\..\..\..\take on helicopters \HSim\ Air_US_H\ Helicopters_Light\Light-GenHeli600-DesktopSim.xml

Overrides

C:\..\..\..\take on helicopters\ AddOns\air_us_h.pbo > hsim> air_us_h> helicopters_light> Light-GenHeli600-DesktopSim.xml

;)

[twisted 127]

The helicopter has 2 modified files, the xml which could be posted as you say, the other file is binarized as TKoH won’t read the same file in txt form and the amount of txt within it along with any special formatting/headers or white space (unknown characters) would be lost beside probably exceeding the maximum characters in a forum post.

So it would have to be posted as a link to a .zip file.

As for repacking your .pbo with new files, why? There is no need, as files created in “HSim\ Air_US_H\ Helicopters_Light†placed in the TKoH root directory will override files of the same name packed in “AddOns\air_us_h.pbo†for testing leaving the default “air_us_h.pbo†unaffected.

e.g. In other words:

C:\..\..\..\take on helicopters \HSim\ Air_US_H\ Helicopters_Light\Light-GenHeli600-DesktopSim.xml

Overrides

C:\..\..\..\take on helicopters\ AddOns\air_us_h.pbo > hsim> air_us_h> helicopters_light> Light-GenHeli600-DesktopSim.xml

;)

be nice if there was an easy way to share the configs as a non-technical kind of guy i'd be very VERY interested in seeing how various improved FM configs handle.

[nightsta1ker 10]

Ok... makes sense. I didn't know that. That would actually save me some time in my editing process. In any case, I am going to PM you my email address so you can send the files whenever you are ready. I would like to try them even if they are not "finished" by your standards. I am very anxious to see how some of these changes affect behavior and match them up with stuff I have already done. There are a few blade related changes I have been using that were discovered by heli_flying and leftskidlow that seem to help alot. If we put all these fixes together into one .xml that would be great.

Thanks.

[zentaos 10]

This community amazes me...when you guys get done fiddling with the current FM's, maybe I could enlist some help to get a configuration for some addon models.

[dhr 10]

Wow. How did this even make through to beta testing. I have flying experience, I will admit limited experience in rotary flying. But I am pretty sure they in no certain way behave like this.

It is an unflyable game for me right now.

[nightsta1ker 10]

Wow. How did this even make through to beta testing. I have flying experience, I will admit limited experience in rotary flying. But I am pretty sure they in no certain way behave like this.

It is an unflyable game for me right now.

Lets try not to focus our attention on criticism and try and put our experience and energy into improving things.

Unless you have real pilots creating the flight models, you are not going to get a realistic experience. That's an OPINION of course. Every game or simulator I have ever touched that had any level of realism was created by or with alot of input from real pilots. This game is no exception. The good news is that all the pieces seem to be there, we just need to get them put together correctly.

The TOH flight model is not broken, it's just not fully assembled yet. The more insight I get into how this game was made, and what it is made OF... the more I am convinced of this.

[hon0 10]

@ Night.

Can I try the "new", "beta" Flight model? Where can I get it?

[jedra 11]

Wow. How did this even make through to beta testing. I have flying experience, I will admit limited experience in rotary flying. But I am pretty sure they in no certain way behave like this.

It is an unflyable game for me right now.

Hmm, don't cloud the water here. There are two angles to look at this. Firstly, many non pilots like myself are enjoying the game as it gives a challenging representation of what flying might be like. Secondly, there are many helicopter pilots who have been disappointed that the flight model does not accurately represent the true flight model. With the work the community are doing with BI, hopefully both camps can be satisfied when a new model is bashed out.

I think that BI will need to decide (once a new model is available) how to implement this. It is all very well having a very accurate flight model, but if this is too difficult for most 'casual' fliers then it may put people off. Of course the best solution to this would be a switchable model. Also it could be released as an addon then people can choose to use it or not.

All in all the game was tested and had a lot of community input during that phase. I think where it went a bit wrong was that it kind of hit squarly in the middle between full simulation and game which maybe confused a lot of customers. As Nightsta1ker said though, all the bits of the puzzle are there, and like with most of BI games will be put together with the community to make the experience better for all. The game is almost infinitely modable and configurable and it is possible that everyone could have there own preferred flight model. For online play there will need to be a set of baselines, but I can see that many people and 'flight clubs' will tweak to their taste.

[armored_sheep 56]

I think that it should work well for lower difficulty if autohover and autotrim setings are tweeked in XML to work with other new flight model values. I expect that improved values that real pilots help tweek will result in better handling and more predictable behavior of the helicopters.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Armored_Sheep

[twisted 127]

There are two angles to look at this. Firstly, many non pilots like myself are enjoying the game as it gives a challenging representation of what flying might be like. Secondly, there are many helicopter pilots who have been disappointed that the flight model does not accurately represent the true flight model. With the work the community are doing with BI, hopefully both camps can be satisfied when a new model is bashed out.

i am no pilot. i enjoyed tkoh, but when i compared it to xplane heli r22 i found xplane (a more realistic simulator) i found xplane easier to fly, more intuitive in that it always did the things i came to expect, and MUCH easier to land. that surprised me. now armoured sheep did mention that xplane has joystick dampening which makes control a little easier, but even with very low dampening i could just get the heli to do more of what i wanted in xplane.

thing is TKOH looks so much better and has a ton of potential. and i support BIS a lot based on my experience with arma2, etc. so i reckon they'll get it right - especially with the input of real pilots.

[zentaos 10]

I think that it should work well for lower difficulty if autohover and autotrim setings are tweeked in XML to work with other new flight model values. I expect that improved values that real pilots help tweek will result in better handling and more predictable behavior of the helicopters.

YES!!!!

Completely agree! Having a more accurate/realistic flight model will not change how the difficulty levels and helpers function. It will just make the FM behave more like the real thing on expert.

I'm new to the BIS community, but after a few short months of watching the goings on, I'm very impressed!