Controlling the Aircraft

[stayalive 10]

To keep it short and to the point here are some issues:

Note: Optimizing controller sensitivities/deadzone did not fix those issues.

1. Aircraft controls feel very loose and inconsistent(under the same circumstances)

- collective sometimes responds fast, sometimes does not respond at all(under the same circumstances)

- Pedals - in windy conditions - even FULL pedals are not enough to stop heli. spin.

- Rolls - Aircraft tends to roll too easily(most noticeable with collective input - it rolls right?!?).

- Landing(without "auto hover") - collective responds with abrupt up/down movements, even with very gentle inputs (which results in aircraft slamming into ground or hovering above LZ refusing to descend, little "UP" input goes up too quick, "DOWN" input slams into ground)

Overall - It feels as if the helicopter is totally out of control and i'm constantly fighting to keep it in the air. I understand that helicopters are very hard to control, but combined with sluggish(and sometimes none responsive controls) it's almost impossible to fly.

On a positive note: I LOVE THIS GAME and what it has to offer - keep up the good work!!

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

ummm i can controll the helicopter just fine but then i'm a helicopter pilot. the torque, pedal seems not to have enough of an effect even in calm winds conditions if you ask me. if you've ever flown a real helicopter it's very squirelly with the pedals in strong winds. also make sure you have your collective set to analog if you've got it on your joystick throttle. the abrupt down/up movement has to do with ground effect not being properly programmed also depending on wind in real helicopters there is a up down effect because wind effectively increases rotor efficiency depending on the situation, just like if you fly through etl you get more lift and that can account for the up downs and well although less dramatic in real life. though the right roll thing is an well known issue and hopefully will be fixed but that could also be that you're not flying the helicopter in trim i.e the pedals. when you raise collective you need left pedal when you lower you need right pedal.

[Arcto 10]

I'm finding landing and take off difficult...well mainly landing. I keep veering off wildly in random directions. I presume this is just to do with pedal work and me not being used to it. I can land a chopper in arma pretty much anywhere but there's no real rotor or wind affect in that.

More practice :D

[lusht 10]

I'm finding landing and take off difficult...well mainly landing. I keep veering off wildly in random directions. I presume this is just to do with pedal work and me not being used to it. I can land a chopper in arma pretty much anywhere but there's no real rotor or wind affect in that.

More practice :D

I use the autohover button alot. It stiffens the helicopter and decreases sensitivity. This enables very precise hovers and landings.

Other than that, they are not that hard to fly, i play in trainee mode with hud disabled. Just keep an eye on your instruments, pitch and vertical speed are crucial.

Compared to FSX dodosim and Black shark, they are just right kind of challenge/fun for me.

[Arcto 10]

BlackShark was a nightmare ;)

[stayalive 10]

Well, I tried to keep it short :) but looks like more info would help...

I'm not a pilot but have extensive flight sim experience (FSX, blackshark, IL2 to name a few) - I prefer to fly in extreme weather conditions because of the added challenge, however, I'm never nervous flying(most realistic settings) but in this game it seems that I'm always on edge, ready to counteract a sudden (and very violent) effect....for example, in the second single player mission I fly a medium class heli(after the first leg of the flight with the light chopper

), take off is a breeze, a bit of pedal work to keep the chopper lined up for the landing approach on the rooftop and then, all of a sudden (without pilot input and not exceeding minimums) the helicopter rolls right, I pull left on the stick(full left) but the helicopter keeps rolling right to the point of no return. I've tried that mission a dozen times and finally gave up...something is clearly wrong. I understand the challenges of flying a chopper (as a simmer) but I think the combination of harsh wind effect and no way to balance it = unavoidable disaster.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing(again, on expert level) TOH very much, I love the challenge, but it's a bit over the top to the point of feeling like flying a chopper is taking a 50/50 chance everytime you take off....what will the chopper do next? pitch down suddenly? Refuse to descend with even with FULL collective down? Roll right or left unexpectedly?

I also double checked the my hardware, it seems to work very gracefully with other sim games. I'm sure these issues will be addressed at some point, I don't expect to have no ground effects, wind effects etc. all I'm saying is that the helicopter(as it is set up right now) is not capable to fly in such conditions SAFELY. Yes, I can fly it too, but I can't imagine flying under the same circumstances in real life.

Edited October 9, 2011 by stayalive

[DarkCrow 10]

I too came from many other flight sims Blackshark as well as fsx included and had many of the same problems when first flying this. Once I got used to the differences I really like it. Just like everybody else though I can't stand the excessive ground effect.

What helped me was watching NightSta1ker's real life video of flying a helicopter and observing his controls. I realized I was holding to tight and chasing the helo instead of inticipating it's movement with many small inputs. What fun this sim is! Now if I could only play for more than 10 minutes without crashing to desktop lol. That will soon come.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Yes, I can fly it too, but I can't imagine flying under the same circumstances in real life.

Try adding realistic conditions to the equation. Wrt weather, choppers are actually a bit more comforting than fixed wings that respond very quickly to weather. So flying under unstable air masses will be a smooth ride compared to a bumpy ride in a small GA plane.

In one trip we had heavy easterly winds, which for us means it comes over the mountain. It was "on hell of a ride" until we passed 4000 feet, where we cruised the leg at 5500 feet in smooth air. But getting down again at our destination, Oh My God - everything in the cabin (maps, pilot bags, not beer bottles) fly all over the place and we couldn't even read our instruments or checklist. On short approach the runway was all over the windscreen, and we were (way) left and right of centerline within milliseconds, and I was 110% sure of doing a missed.

Then at about 30-50 feet AGL - dead silence from the weather and the smoothest landing ever. Very very weird experience. Same deal on return leg (we just went there for coffee :p), where the PA28 became horrible to us immediately after takeoff, and we'd just done a mental picture of the departure since map reading was out of the question (also a routine flight), and wait until we reached enough altitude to clear the mountain winds.

I believe the trip down took us about 1:20, and the return trip only some 50 minutes or so. Fairly bad medium altitude winds, making low level flying impossible due only the direction of the wind.

What I'm saying is that in the game, realistic conditions can't exist. Even MSFS left a lot to be desired wrt weather simulation.

As for ground effect (I'm not a chopper pilot), I agree. It should have more "checkpoints" (center, left, right, forward, aft of rotor) and apply the force more gradually.

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

Well, I tried to keep it short :) but looks like more info would help...

I'm not a pilot but have extensive flight sim experience (FSX, blackshark, IL2 to name a few) - I prefer to fly in extreme weather conditions because of the added challenge, however, I'm never nervous flying(most realistic settings) but in this game it seems that I'm always on edge, ready to counteract a sudden (and very violent) effect....for example, in the second single player mission I fly a medium class heli(after the first leg of the flight with the light chopper

), take off is a breeze, a bit of pedal work to keep the chopper lined up for the landing approach on the rooftop and then, all of a sudden (without pilot input and not exceeding minimums) the helicopter rolls right, I pull left on the stick(full left) but the helicopter keeps rolling right to the point of no return. I've tried that mission a dozen times and finally gave up...something is clearly wrong. I understand the challenges of flying a chopper (as a simmer) but I think the combination of harsh wind effect and no way to balance it = unavoidable disaster.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing(again, on expert level) TOH very much, I love the challenge, but it's a bit over the top to the point of feeling like flying a chopper is taking a 50/50 chance everytime you take off....what will the chopper do next? pitch down suddenly? Refuse to descend with even with FULL collective down? Roll right or left unexpectedly?

I also double checked the my hardware, it seems to work very gracefully with other sim games. I'm sure these issues will be addressed at some point, I don't expect to have no ground effects, wind effects etc. all I'm saying is that the helicopter(as it is set up right now) is not capable to fly in such conditions SAFELY. Yes, I can fly it too, but I can't imagine flying under the same circumstances in real life.

it would help if you can tell us what your speed is, and also what you're doing with your pedals as you're descending and lining up with your landing spot, it might just be pilot error. but i have noticed the right roll although not as bad as what you're describing.

[stayalive 10]

it would help if you can tell us what your speed is, and also what you're doing with your pedals as you're descending and lining up with your landing spot, it might just be pilot error. but i have noticed the right roll although not as bad as what you're describing.

Speed - 70/60 knots and slowing

Pedal input - about 10% left (or as needed to keep nose straight)

Glide slope: Approaching rooftop from the E/SE, altitude - approx 500ft above rooftop landing area.

Maybe i'm approaching from the wrong angle/direction? (on windy conditions i usually take 3 steps to land: 1. Letting the wind turn the helicopter so that my nose is pointing into the wind 2. Start a consistent glide slope 3. Establish controlled hover above LZ for a controlled touchdown).

Once the helicopter start rolling right i try to counter balance it(as needed)with left cyclic but the wind effect quickly overtakes the heli. even with GRADUAL FULL cyclic left. I've tried to start from the "saved" point(approaching the rooftop) with FULL cyclic left which stops the roll to the right but puts the helicopter in very violent turns and unstable movement, definitely not suited for landing...especially on a rooftop.

[zentaos 10]

What are you using for controls? I had similar issues in the community preview, so I calibrated my joystick and found the y axis was having interference with the throttle axis.

I replaced the joystick and all is well

[stayalive 10]

What are you using for controls? I had similar issues in the community preview, so I calibrated my joystick and found the y axis was having interference with the throttle axis.

I replaced the joystick and all is well

I'm using Microsoft Force Feedback Sidewinder 2 joystick & very pleased with the way it feels(feedback). Feedback works amazing on FSX.

It does not look like hardware issue for me since it works just fine under calm conditions(aside from already known & reported issues).

If there is an option to increase the "force feedback" I think it will help counter balance the heli. a lot (especially under windy conditions). I realize helicopter controls feel very sluggish and "light" but i assume a pilots have a much better feedback feel from the stick then in the game. I could be wrong about this though.

...Or maybe upgrading to G940 will help controlling(feel) the heli.? Any thoughts on this?

[armored_sheep 56]

I assume a pilots have a much better feedback feel from the stick then in the game. I could be wrong about this though.

You are. http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=125647

There is no force feedback in real helicoppter. Rotor blades move very fast compared to control surfaces of fixed wing aircraft, and their pitch angle is usualy set by hydraulics.

[stayalive 10]

You are. http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=125647

There is no force feedback in real helicoppter. Rotor blades move very fast compared to control surfaces of fixed wing aircraft, and their pitch angle is usualy set by hydraulics.

Fair enough...I can live with that as long as the the other issues(sudden rolls etc.) are fixed, which i'm sure it will. And while I got you on here, thank EVERYONE at BI for creating this game(i'm sure i speak for a lot of simmers) Make no mistake about it, I'M LOVING IT!....and also looking forward to flying helicopters in ARMA3, hopefully with similar physics or as close as you can make it.

Edited October 10, 2011 by stayalive

[Chris CDN 10]

You are. http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=125647

There is no force feedback in real helicoppter. Rotor blades move very fast compared to control surfaces of fixed wing aircraft, and their pitch angle is usualy set by hydraulics.

That being said, force trim on most aircraft generates artificial feedback.

[zentaos 10]

Rotor systems by design are not going to transmit slot of feedback. A lot of the solutions to rotary wing flight would negate any feedback to the cyclic.

Example ... Hinged blades that can lead, lag, and flap will absorb turbulence.

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

Speed - 70/60 knots and slowing

Pedal input - about 10% left (or as needed to keep nose straight)

Glide slope: Approaching rooftop from the E/SE, altitude - approx 500ft above rooftop landing area.

Maybe i'm approaching from the wrong angle/direction? (on windy conditions i usually take 3 steps to land: 1. Letting the wind turn the helicopter so that my nose is pointing into the wind 2. Start a consistent glide slope 3. Establish controlled hover above LZ for a controlled touchdown).

Once the helicopter start rolling right i try to counter balance it(as needed)with left cyclic but the wind effect quickly overtakes the heli. even with GRADUAL FULL cyclic left. I've tried to start from the "saved" point(approaching the rooftop) with FULL cyclic left which stops the roll to the right but puts the helicopter in very violent turns and unstable movement, definitely not suited for landing...especially on a rooftop.

well there's two problems to your approach, you never mentioned flying into the wind on purpose, you let it drift so it flyings towards the wind. when taking off and landing in a helicopter in real life you always want to point towards where the wind is coming from but in the game it's less crucial. also as you're descending you want to add "RIGHT" pedal because you are are decreasing collective, towards the final flare to hover you're increasing collective to slow down the descent which means you use "LEFT" pedal because you're pulling collective. if you use proper pedal work it's very much controllable although it does take some muscling of the joystick just remember to be gentle with your movements, large movement make you overcorrect and possibly make you loose control all together.

[stayalive 10]

well there's two problems to your approach, you never mentioned flying into the wind on purpose, you let it drift so it flyings towards the wind. when taking off and landing in a helicopter in real life you always want to point towards where the wind is coming from but in the game it's less crucial. also as you're descending you want to add "RIGHT" pedal because you are are decreasing collective, towards the final flare to hover you're increasing collective to slow down the descent which means you use "LEFT" pedal because you're pulling collective. if you use proper pedal work it's very much controllable although it does take some muscling of the joystick just remember to be gentle with your movements, large movement make you overcorrect and possibly make you loose control all together.

hmmmmm....Am i missing something?!? What is the difference between "flying into the wind on purpose" and "when taking off and landing in a helicopter in real life you always want to point towards where the wind is coming from" - in both cased i'm landing INTO the wind.

Also, if during landing the helicopter starts to rotate right due to wind, more RIGHT pedal input will rotate the helicopter even faster(to the right) and I will no longer be pointing into the wind?!? Should I still use right pedals if the helicopter is rotating right during landing?

Normally when landing in strong winds, in Helicopters or Airplanes, pointing into the wind is always a balance game, sometimes the wind wants to rotate my aircraft left, sometimes right depending on where the nose of the aircraft is pointing. I usually make gentle corrections (pedals or rudder)to keep the aircraft pointing into the wind and lined up for touchdown. I always make sure that the wind does not overtake aircraft, that's when things get too unstable and normally result in a missed approach. (Yes, under calm conditions I do use Right pedals)

Personally, I think this issue will be solved once a patch is out(to fix some of the known issues) and overall I think it's a great game. So, I'll wait until the patch is out and try again...until then I erase my case. I'm sure the developers have their hands full right now with the release date quickly approaching :bounce3:

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

quote "1. Letting the wind turn the helicopter so that my nose is pointing into the wind." end quote. anyway there's no way that you can be descending and your helicopter is rotating right unless you've used WAY too much right rudder which you told me you use left. second quote "Once the helicopter start rolling right i try to counter balance it(as needed)with left cyclic but the wind effect quickly overtakes the heli. even with GRADUAL FULL cyclic left. I've tried to start from the "saved" point(approaching the rooftop) with FULL cyclic left which stops the roll to the right but puts the helicopter in very violent turns and unstable movement, definitely not suited for landing...especially on a rooftop." end quote. so what your'e saying is you're rolling right, rolling and rotating is totally different. you're using cyclic only corrections which is wrong, that is why i said to use left pedal initially to correct your roll to the right during the last few seconds of your approach. and the reason why you'd use left pedal is because you're pulling collective to arrest your descent, are you understanding this so far? if not let me know so i can explain further.

Edited October 11, 2011 by MD500Enthusiast

[stayalive 10]

It might very well be pilot error on my part, I can't tell for sure...I think it's a combination of few things 1.Still getting used to the game(helicopter handling) 2. Known control issues 3. More practice.

I don't recall using right rudder AT ALL, it's always been left(only in that mission where I approach the rooftop) - It could be that as I lower the collective the helicopter is rotating right and i'm already holding 10-20% left rudder which leaves less left rudder available when the helicopter rolls right.

I will try adding left pedal input to correct the roll, I only used cyclic before(to correct roll, not to point the nose into the wind). I though the the pedals were for rotation corrections only but I guess I was wrong.

I wish I could give you a straight answer in regards to what i'm doing exactly in the cockpit, it's easy to remember what I did in normal flight conditions, but when the heli is suddenly and abruptly rolls, I go from calm to "panic attack" in the cockpit:butbut: at that point I'm not really thinking, just trying to regain control.

At this point I can't tell if the helicopter is doing something as a result of my input or if it's a game bug. One thing I know i'm doing wrong is not anticipating what the helicopter is going to do(i'm still working on it), instead, i try to counter balance whatever the heli(or bugs) is doing to keep stable and safe flight. Having said that, I think it's better to wait until the patch is out and get more experience "feeling" the new cockpits.

Thanks for your help!

Edited October 11, 2011 by stayalive

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

the helicopter won't be that much different than what you will get from when they "patch it up". you're right in the sense that you don't know how to anticipate what a helicopter will do. like i told you, when you start to descend for your landing, lower your collective and add a little bit of right pedal. once you get close to your landing sight and start to add collective add left pedal simultaneously. once you've arrested your descent to a hover adjust your pedal to keep you heading straight. make sure you're not making large adjustments which could very well be what's making you loose control. now as you're becoming stable in a hover lower your collective and add slight right pedals again and gently touch down on the ground, make sure you keep your heading constant and not drifting left or right or you'll risk dynamic rollover. if need be you can actually land with foward speed, just make sure you keep your heading constant and lower your helicopter down gently and keep lowing your collective until you come to a full stop. one thing that you might check into if you don't actually have pedals and using a twist grip is to decrease the sensitivity of your twist grip axis so you don't over use your pedal when you twist because it's not accurate.

[stayalive 10]

I am using a "twist rudder" joystick (Microsoft Force feedback 2), I will try to reduce sensitivity. That could very well be the problem.

Any recommendations on controls? The Logiteck G940 package(separate stick,throttle & pedal units) looks nice...any experience with it?

Thanks again for you help!!!

[beepee 10]

Maybe record some video? I'm really curious whats going on in your cockpit.

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

i personally have a saitek x65, with CH pedals and track IR.

---------- Post added at 01:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:20 PM ----------

just so you know landing is possible you can check out a video of someone that frapsed me flying on youtube here

[stayalive 10]

Maybe record some video? I'm really curious whats going on in your cockpit.

Great Idea!!!

I will look into it! (don't know how but i'm sure I can figure it out)

Thanks!