Handling Qualities and First Impressions

[buznee 0]

Did some flying last night with the beta and just wanted to give my first impressions.

For a beta I believe this is a great start. I have played the ARMA series of games and the menu screens and interface definately show the roots. Although there seems to be lots of left over stuff from ARMA that should be removed to avoid confusion. Too many control assignments that seem redundant and can add confusion to the player.

There are some issues I believe should be addressed though with regards to aircraft handling.

Helicopters by nature require active input by the pilot to keep the aircraft in a controlled manner. Because of their unstable nature they are designed with good controllability for precision flying. This is what we call direct stick to head control. You input a deflection into the cyclic control and you see the result right in front of your eyes. Similar to a bicycle, it should feel very intuitive and instant.

The aircraft in the beta seem to have control sluggishness and delay/lag which is extremely aggrevating in an aircraft that is naturally unstable. I understand that the joystick axis sensitivity and deadzone can be adjusted, but this does not fix the issue. I beg the TOH development team to address this very issue because it is a deal killer for this sim. For some reason the pedal controls do not seem to have nearly as much of this sluggishness / delay as the cyclic and collective.

Collective should also be instant since the pilot is controlling blade angle directly. The only thing that should be delayed if any is rotorspeed response based on engine fadec control dynamic engine response and FADEC controlled engine limiters for the more expensive twin engine helicopters. Also because the collective is instant, that means the torque on the rotor should change instantly with a change in collective. This does not seem to be true in the sim.

With regards to aircraft performance

The power required may be off as well, especially for hover. Most helicopters hover at around 60-100% torque depending on many things such as weight, altitude, and temperature. Most pilots are therefore looking at the torque gauge especially during hover because of the great deal of an incredible amount of power required. Sometimes an aircraft is loaded so heavy that it has to do a HIGE (hover in ground effect) and then transition into bucket speed in order to have enough excess power to climb out. There should be a considerable amount of collective/torque required to hover as compared to bucket speed in trimmed level flight (Vy, best rate of climb speed or best endurance speed) of ~60 kts for an MD500. At Vy the torque should be minimum. It should then increase rapidly as you approach Vne (Never exceed speed.) This should all ofcourse vary with aircraft weight and operating altitude but the relation is the same.

Engine power available should also vary with density which can be derived from temperature and pressure altitude. Anotherwords, as you go higher the engine gets less oxygen and produces less power. This means that you may not get to 100% torque at high altitudes and start drooping the rotor speed sooner.

These are all very real effects that I believe should be included because it effects pilot operations. Just like how you guys are trying to implement pre-flight walk around to make sure you don't have a bird's nest in the engine compartment, you should also have the pilot do a quick check of the aircraft center of gravity plot and weight to make sure you can actually fly safely and have the capability as well as have enough fuel to go and do what you want to do. This can all be simplified and integrated in a userfriendly interface so it is a little less of a hassle.

Overall I think the team is heading in the right direction but I plead on getting the helicopter feel to be more direct. Pilot should feel like he one with the helicopter, remove all sluggishness and lags. If you need something to compare to, go take an intro flight in a real Robinson R22 or download the Dodosim Bell 206 for FSX and you will see what I mean. It is very sensitive and instant but yet highly controllable. Not sluggish / lagged / muffled.

Other issues.

I tried doing the single missions and there definately needs to be some work done with the scripting and triggers as well as the briefing. Landing in one helipad vs the other will trigger or not trigger the waypoint to go talk to the guys who are waiting for you. If that is the case it needs to be clear in the briefing or through the radio that you need to land in the north or south helipad etc. Also when the mercenary guy tells you to follow the road it would be nice to know if you turn left onto the road or right onto the road as well as what speed and altitude he wants you to target. Having him tell you headings to fly or being more clear without you having to turn on the waypoints would be great. Also at the end when you go to drop the guys off at the shooting range there definately is issues with triggers for them to disembark.

Missions need to be well briefed and clear in what needs to be done or it will add frustration. I hope for a polished release and if not initially I hope that the team strives to continue to support the development because this sim has tons of potential if done properly.

I wanted to thank you guys at BI for Take on Helicopters. Lets get this right!

[zoog 18]

Also at the end when you go to drop the guys off at the shooting range there definately is issues with triggers for them to disembark.

AFAIK in this mission you must do the insertion landing at 0 degrees with +/- 15 degrees leeway and the extraction landing must be 180 degrees with +/- 15 degrees leeway.

I agree with the mission briefings. Would like them to be more elaborate with more details about where to land specifically etc.

[Chris CDN 10]

Did some flying last night with the beta and just wanted to give my first impressions.

For a beta I believe this is a great start.

Yup.

Helicopters by nature require active input by the pilot to keep the aircraft in a controlled manner... Similar to a bicycle, it should feel very intuitive and instant.

Thanks to gyroscopic precession it can't be instant, but the medium model is a bit more sluggish than it should be. Still, it's pretty close.

For some reason the pedal controls do not seem to have nearly as much of this sluggishness / delay as the cyclic and collective.

True, right pedal input should be significantly improved.

Collective should also be instant since the pilot is controlling blade angle directly. The only thing that should be delayed if any is rotorspeed response based on engine fadec control dynamic engine response and FADEC controlled engine limiters for the more expensive twin engine helicopters. Also because the collective is instant, that means the torque on the rotor should change instantly with a change in collective. This does not seem to be true in the sim.

Q can change without collective input and the level of lag feels appropriate on the medium model. The change on the pitch of the blades should be close to instant, but there will always be lag.

With regards to aircraft performance...

This has been addressed extensively in this thread. Here. We have been assured that the devs have (at the very least) seen the thread.

Engine power available should also vary with density which can be derived from temperature and pressure altitude.

True, but given the game really only exists between 0-1000 ft ASL it's a bit moot.

as you go higher the engine gets less oxygen and produces less power. This means that you may not get to 100% torque at high altitudes and start drooping the rotor speed sooner.

You may want to check the math on that. Regardless, you'll hit VnE long before you run out of Q or temperature because TAS is higher than IAS at high altitude.

These are all very real effects that I believe should be included because it effects pilot operations. Just like how you guys are trying to implement pre-flight walk around to make sure you don't have a bird's nest in the engine compartment, you should also have the pilot do a quick check of the aircraft center of gravity plot and weight to make sure you can actually fly safely and have the capability as well as have enough fuel to go and do what you want to do. This can all be simplified and integrated in a userfriendly interface so it is a little less of a hassle.

Good points, but IMHO they are well outside the scope of this game. Especially within weeks of the anticipated release date. Bigger fish to fry at this point, I'm afraid.

Overall I think the team is heading in the right direction but I plead on getting the helicopter feel to be more direct. Pilot should feel like he one with the helicopter, remove all sluggishness and lags. If you need something to compare to, go take an intro flight in a real Robinson R22 or download the Dodosim Bell 206 for FSX and you will see what I mean. It is very sensitive and instant but yet highly controllable. Not sluggish / lagged / muffled.

Try playing on Trainee. To be honest, it feels a little more realistic than the expert mode. I've flown the EC145 and the light helicopter model (collective issues aside) feels a lot like the 145.

I tried doing the single missions and there definately needs to be some work done with the scripting and triggers as well as the briefing. ...

Missions need to be well briefed and clear in what needs to be done or it will add frustration. I hope for a polished release and if not initially I hope that the team strives to continue to support the development because this sim has tons of potential if done properly.

Yup.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Chris CDN

[buznee 0]

Thanks for the replys.

Out of curiousity what do you have set for the joystick sensitivities and deadzones for the collective, cyclic, pedals. I am using the Saitek X52.

Also the only controllability difference I see in Trainee as compared to Expert is the auto trim. Is this what you are refering to that makes the aircraft feel different or are there things that you can't select within the difficulty options that make the Trainee mode different than Expert?

Do you use the manual trim engage / release ?

[twisted 128]

Also the only controllability difference I see in Trainee as compared to Expert is the auto trim. Is this what you are refering to that makes the aircraft feel different or are there things that you can't select within the difficulty options that make the Trainee mode different than Expert?

this question + 1

[DnA 5143]

If that is the case it needs to be clear in the briefing or through the radio that you need to land in the north or south helipad etc. Also when the mercenary guy tells you to follow the road it would be nice to know if you turn left onto the road or right onto the road as well as what speed and altitude he wants you to target. Having him tell you headings to fly or being more clear without you having to turn on the waypoints would be great.

There are quite some indications for all of the information above. Perhaps you're not seeing some of them because of your difficulty settings, but then it's up to you to really read the briefing, tasks, map and cockpit instruments to know where to go and how high to fly for example :)

Examples:

• The specific landing pad is marked on the map by marker and as task indicator in the in-game UI (with range).
  
• The specific flight ceiling is mentioned in your tasks, and shown on the analogue UI instruments (with color indication of whether you're under or over).
  
• The same as above for the landing heading.
  
• The flight route is shown on the map, and as task indicator in the UI.
  

We'll have a look at the landing trigger and other issues.

[buznee 0]

I appologize. Some of those things are in fact shown. I guess with higher difficulty you get less of the obvious indicators. If I don't land with heading at 0 degrees is it normal for them not to disembark?

[DnA 5143]

I appologize. Some of those things are in fact shown. I guess with higher difficulty you get less of the obvious indicators. If I don't land with heading at 0 degrees is it normal for them not to disembark?

No need to apologize; I was only pointing out what types of indicators exist, but may be hidden. It depends on which landing you're referring to ... the quick insertion training? In that case, it should allow 15 degrees offset either way. You do need to land near the indicated position; that PMC is a bit of a stubborn fellow ;)

[buznee 0]

Well in that case if you land off of heading I would have the dude tell you something to let you know that they won't be disembarking until you do as instructed, "What are you doing! Don't you know which way north is!? You really are starting to worry me. I'm going to have negotiate a partial refund with your manager because of your stupidity." ;)

[DnA 5143]

Fair point; it should be there already, but will check why it's not triggering :)

[OMAC 254]

I had the same experience; if you landed with wrong heading, the PMC guys won't disembark and you're left wondering what is going on. But I figured it out. But this could result in significant confusion for noobs - the PMC a_hole should be yelling at you non-stop to land on the right heading, especially as he has been yelling at you so much about the slightest infraction up to that point. On Expert, as no hud or other on-screen indicators are present, his barked commands are the only thing you have to know if you are out of bounds; thus, it is imperative that such commands be barked continuously whenever necessary.

---------- Post added at 11:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 AM ----------

Try playing on Trainee. To be honest, it feels a little more realistic than the expert mode. I've flown the EC145 and the light helicopter model (collective issues aside) feels a lot like the 145.

This is disturbing to me. Does this mean that Expert flight settings are over-torqued to just be ridiculously difficult to play, and are unrealistic? If an actual pilot says that Trainee is "more realistic" than Expert, then default Expert settings are wrong. Expert should always be the most realistic in every way, as it is in A2.

Also, the ridiculous attitude changes that occur when collective is raised (at least on Expert) makes the use of collective absurd except in the most demanding situations, or when autohover is on. I doubt that this is true in real life, but I could be wrong. Then again, I only play with kb/mouse, so...

It appears that the lack of hud and any other on-screen indicators in Expert regarding required flight ceilings and speed/azimuth thresholds for missions is leading to confusion for noobs. I enable hud on Expert so that I can use ^h to show it when absolutely necessary. It increasingly seems to me that Expert mode was designed to be played only after you have played a mission on easier settings so that you already know all the required parameters. I'm not sure that is a great idea. Someone should be able to leap right into Expert and play a mission the first time.

Edited October 8, 2011 by OMAC

[Chris CDN 10]

Does this mean that Expert flight settings are over-torqued to just be ridiculously difficult to play, and are unrealistic? If an actual pilot says that Trainee is "more realistic" than Expert, then default Expert settings are wrong. Expert should always be the most realistic in every way, as it is in A2.

The expert flight model leaves a lot to be desired. The settings aren't "over torqued" necessarily, but there are a lot of issues that need to (and have been) addressed over and over again. Just play on trainee. It's not supposed to be a sim, and until the expert settings have been fixed it's probably more trouble than it's worth. The issues have been brought up, so it's up to the devs to decide if it's going to be fixed.

[OMAC 254]

I beat the Silver time on the Railroaded time trial the first time I played it on Trainee. On expert? Whooo boy. Brutal. I think somehow you are supposed to use manual trim set to control things, but an entire training tutorial should be dedicated just to manual trim. I'm still only starting to understand how to use it.

I made up the term "over-torqued." Pretty good, eh? Not entirely sure what it means, but it sounds good, and perhaps gets the point across.

[OMAC 254]

The issues have been brought up, so it's up to the devs to decide if it's going to be fixed.

Where have these issues been brought up? Could you point me to them? I have never seen any discussions about them other than mine.

[Chris CDN 10]

Where have these issues been brought up? Could you point me to them? I have never seen any discussions about them other than mine.

The first four or five posts in this thread are a good start. Also, there's this, some mention in here, and always this old standby.

The Community Issue Tracker has these points listed as well.

[zoog 18]

an entire training tutorial should be dedicated just to manual trim. I'm still only starting to understand how to use it.

+1 Would like to have some extra info on how to actually use manual trim during flight.

[BadWeather 10]

Trim changes the center of your helicopter's controls. In other words it takes the load off the stick. Let us say you are in forward flight and pushing the stick forward and to the left. When you press set manual trim and let go of your controller, the chopper still flies as if you continued without using the trim. When you press release manual trim it returns your controls as they were. In other words, takes away all trim.

Directional trim buttons just move the center to the pushed button's direction by a small amount. So you must do more clicks for more effect. Again release button returns the controls to the center.

Hope that clears it up

EDIT: Oh and set manual trim button can be used multiple times without release button in between the presses. The effect is then cumulative. So for another example pressing SET when the stick is say 5 degrees to the left, letting go of the controls, then pushing the stick left five degrees, pushin SET trim again and taking your hands off the controls would leave the controls in game trimmed 10 degrees to the left. You can also trim back towards right after the first 5 degrees left and so on.

Edited October 9, 2011 by BadWeather

[zoog 18]

That's how I thought it worked. Thanks for the explanation.

It would be nice if, once you pressed manual trim, that it only becomes active if you re-center the stick. Because now if you press trim and don't move your stick back to neutral fast enough you get double inputs (the new center + the angle of the stick without bringing it back to center). Like in Black Shark you have 0,5 or 1,0 seconds to re-center the stick and otherwise the trim input is ignored (IIRC).

[buznee 0]

Yup.

You may want to check the math on that. Regardless, you'll hit VnE long before you run out of Q or temperature because TAS is higher than IAS at high altitude.

Why does the aircraft care about TAS? Your VNE is derived from IAS, it is usually an airspeed limit set for structural limitations directly related to load factor and ultimately dynamic pressure. IAS has a relationship directly proportional to dynamic pressure (keeping density as a constant, standard sea level density). Here is the relationship used to derive your true airspeed and indicated airspeed from your dynamic pressure which is derived off of the total pressure port and static pressure port in the pitot static system. For true airspeed you will need a static temp sensor as well to derive your air density.

Pdynamic = PTotal - Pstatic =.5*airdensitySSL*IAS^2 = .5*airdensity*TAS^2

From what I remember reading, the reason aircraft use indicated airspeed instead of true airspeed is because it allows you to have a constant set of markers that the pilot can refer to regardless of altitude. If the stall speed on a fixed wing is 60 KIAS at sea level, then at altitude it will still be 60 KIAS, even though your true airspeed may be much higher.

VH on the other hand is the airspeed in which the aircraft can't physically go any faster. Depending on the aircraft and condition VH might be higher or lower than VNE.

[OMAC 254]

Thanks, badWeather for the trim explanation. Like zoog, I understood in theory how it is supposed to work, but using it successfully in practice is another issue. Also, manual trim cannot be set multiple times in game for cumulative effect. Once it is set, you can only release it, not set again. Perhaps you were writing about an actual heli, not the ones in-game?

I do find in Expert flight that I am often pushing the stick to NW position (hold WA cyclic keys at same time) quite often to compensate for rightward roll and the heli always pitching a little back, especially after making a rightward bank. I most often want to use manual trim to compensate for the backward pitch so that I don't have to always be adding front cyclic (W) to maintain speed.

[Chris CDN 10]

Why does the aircraft care about TAS? Your VNE is derived from IAS, it is usually an airspeed limit set for structural limitations directly related to load factor and ultimately dynamic pressure. IAS has a relationship directly proportional to dynamic pressure (keeping density as a constant, standard sea level density). Here is the relationship used to derive your true airspeed and indicated airspeed from your dynamic pressure which is derived off of the total pressure port and static pressure port in the pitot static system. For true airspeed you will need a static temp sensor as well to derive your air density.

Pdynamic = PTotal - Pstatic =.5*airdensitySSL*IAS^2 = .5*airdensity*TAS^2

That's some pretty impressive math. I googled around a bit trying to find a better explanation than my own, but at the end of the day the reason I care about decreasing Vne at altitude is because the POH told me to. Your explanation makes sense to me, but doesn't change the fact that every single aircraft has decreasing Vne at altitude. If you figure out why, feel free to fill me in.

[buznee 0]

oh thats what you meant. :) Doh! Yes I agree VNE decreases with airspeed.

This is primarily due to blade stall as you go higher in altitude. Thinner air means you need more pitch for the same thrust output. Higher pitch means higher blade loading which inturn translates to getting into blade stall at lower and lower airspeeds. I think the FAA regulations also has a minimum VNE (40 KCAS) as well which at the end caps the altitude capability of the aircraft. Just in case your curious, FAR Part 29 has all the certification requirements for rotorcraft.

Reference FARS

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=0c4e8600c494747fcf42b1528f3afa05&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:1.0.1.3.14&idno=14#14:1.0.1.3.14.7.360.3

I appologize for the geeky math and references since I am a helicopter flight test and design engineer. Doh! =)