Gun politics

[froggyluv 2136]

You, as a german, do not understand how it could be that someone has a problem with federal agencies? How many of them do you have? Did they work for free? How about looking for a family album of yours and mark all the people which were killed by the government or died by government createt circumstances?

You really have known people killed by our U.S Gov't here in the states?

Why on good earth would you want to live here if you believe our Gov't just outs and kills people whenever they like? I certainly wouldn't want to live in a place like that.

Also do you believe in any Gov't restriction when it comes to arms or do you believe anyone should be able to pack and own absolutely anything they wish at any time?

[Beagle 684]

You really have known people killed by our U.S Gov't here in the states?

Why on good earth would you want to live here if you believe our Gov't just outs and kills people whenever they like? I certainly wouldn't want to live in a place like that.

Also do you believe in any Gov't restriction when it comes to arms or do you believe anyone should be able to pack and own absolutely anything they wish at any time?

Yeah free nukes for all and for free.

[Minutemen 10]

Yeah free nukes for all and for free.

Polemic doesn't affirm your arguments.

Why on good earth would you want to live here if you believe our Gov't just outs and kills people whenever they like?

Because its still the freest country on earth. And thats sad enough.

And at least, where should i go? The police state England where people beg for mercy if they get robbed by a bunch of scum and just the non-natives fought back? Or Germany, where people like our valued Friend Beagle think they still have freedom?

"If you don't like it her why you don't go somewhere else."

Because there is no "somewhere else". Better get the values back which were highjacket by Old-Money Aristocrates in Politics which followed the people which had enough of europa like harpies.

Also do you believe in any Gov't restriction when it comes to arms or do you believe anyone should be able to pack and own absolutely anything they wish at any time?

Yepp. And don't bring up that bullshit Nuke thing again, because there is no way even the craziest Gun nut could ever defray or afford a Nuke.

And if we still had the gold standard, even the government couldn't afford most of them.

Thats the evil law of the market.

And if i "believe" in restrictions doesn't matter, because the generaly problem with democracy is, that people could decree on other peoples way of living based on their own "believes".

Thats also the point where i leave every debate, when someone says "i think we should.." or "i believe its better when we had..."

Hey, if you don't like guns, don't buy them. But don't tell other people what to do. As simple as that.

Edited October 5, 2011 by Minutemen

[mosh 0]

Hey, if you don't like guns, don't buy them. But don't tell other people what to do. As simple as that.

+1

Thank you.

[froggyluv 2136]

Yepp. And don't bring up that bullshit Nuke thing again, because there is no way even the craziest Gun nut could ever defray or afford a Nuke.

So you'd have no problem if American Muslim groups, unhappy with the lack of morales present in our society, started stockpiling as much weaponry as they wanted unchecked?

The "nuke" is just an example the argument that all weaponry should be freely accessible to all. I guess you answered the question and believe that to be true.

Hey, if you don't like guns, don't buy them. But don't tell other people what to do. As simple as that.

We were having a discussion on if and how the system should be calibrated before you came in here John Wayne Swinging d*ck style and started screaming about your guns. Fact is, I never told anyone they don't have a right to own a gun - but I guess to an absolutist, there is no fine detail.

[Minutemen 10]

So you'd have no problem if American Muslim groups, unhappy with the lack of morales present in our society, started stockpiling as much weaponry as they wanted unchecked?

Yepp, no problem with that. They can stockpiling weapons as they want. There is no law against an arsenal.

What do you want? Gunban for Negros and Indians eeehm, i mean Minorities?

First of all: They are a Minority. They are not able to set the Sharia in charge because the Public is armed.

And hey, maybee there are some crazy KKK Members running around which wanna burn the muslim community hall, the muslims have a right to selfdefence too. As the black Panthers demanded. Or if they wanna burn our community hall, we would defende ourself.

I mean, they can talk tough under the first amendment about killing crackers and such bull, but i would shoot back if they would try.

And i mean, how many people are unhappy with the lack of morales in our society?

I guess you answered the question and believe that to be true.

Swiss also have not just their fullautomatic assault rifles but also plastic explosives and handgrenades. Do they massacre each other every weekend?

We were having a discussion on if and how the system should be calibrated before you came in here John Wayne Swinging d*ck style and started screaming about your guns.

I never spoke about "my guns" but take position for the right to selfdefence.

Fact is,

If you claim that label for you be so honest and don't make things up about "John Wayne Swinging dick style"

Edited October 6, 2011 by Minutemen

[Beagle 684]

Swiss also have not just their fullautomatic assault rifles but also plastic explosives and handgrenades. Do they massacre each other every weekend?

No... because Switzerland is a small nation with mostly rural and montainous regions with a very low rate of inhabitants per km², a very high per capita income and very good social security...It so nice that thousand of German immigrants there, including meber of my family. Please don't compare the USA to Switzerland...I've got uncles aunts and cousins in CH and I can only scratch my head with big ??? when you try to compare CH to USA.

Like in Germany the ones with the assault rifles in the locker are ARMY RESERVISTS in a conscript army...So you just proof me right with the USA - CH comparation, yes?

Edited October 6, 2011 by Beagle

[HyperU2 11]

Why can't we compare rural regions of the US with Switzerland?

[Minutemen 10]

Why can't we compare rural regions of the US with Switzerland?

Its a mentaly reflex by europeans which grow up with that dull picture of america, with wild west and such things.

Ofcourse you can compare a armed society with another armed society. Men will be Men and the society mechanisms are everywhere very similar.

Like in Germany the ones with the assault rifles in the locker are ARMY RESERVISTS in a conscript army...So you just proof me right with the USA - CH comparation, yes?

You dont have an assault rifle in the looker. You have to put your guns in the B safe i tought? And sometimes a official will show up to controll if the guns are realy in that safe, and they don't need a warrent for that action.

In swiss its totaly different. When the official shows up, your guns must be hide so that he can't find them. Thats a total different way of thinking about gun ownership.

And its way more easier to get a licence in Switzerland than in Germany.

German Gun Law = Bull

Swiss Gun "Law" = Yeaaay!

Edited October 6, 2011 by Minutemen

[HyperU2 11]

We wouldn't have the "wild west" if it weren't for Italian directors and their fiction.

[Beagle 684]

Why can't we compare rural regions of the US with Switzerland?

Because of this ;)

CH ---- USA

Schweizer ---- Amerikaner

O.K. thats a bit bold and simple...but Switzerland and it's people is so special You cant even compare them to other europeans...exept austrians and bavarians...because its the same "breed" of montain people.

And since I work in touristics for a long time now I have to deal with lots of all the four mentioned on a daily base

Edited October 6, 2011 by Beagle

[HyperU2 11]

I fully believe they're special, my ancestry is Swiss. I want my firearms in our new locale.

[Minutemen 10]

We wouldn't have the "wild west" if it weren't for Italian directors and their fiction.

Thats totaly true. People which saw such movies realy think there was a shootout every day with the tumbleweed rolling byside.

Towns in the wild west had a lower crime rate than today.

[Beagle 684]

Thats totaly true. People which saw such movies realy think there was a shootout every day with the tumbleweed rolling byside.

Towns in the wild west had a lower crime rate than today.

Whoot... that's not the truth... no tumbelweed ???

Because we always try to look for tumbleweed substitute for out great brandenburg plains shootouts.

Don't ask me what this is about I cant stop laughing myself :D

Edited October 6, 2011 by Beagle

[froggyluv 2136]

Yepp, no problem with that. They can stockpiling weapons as they want. There is no law against an arsenal.

What do you want? Gunban for Negros and Indians eeehm, i mean Minorities?

First of all: They are a Minority. They are not able to set the Sharia in charge because the Public is armed.

And hey, maybee there are some crazy KKK Members running around which wanna burn the muslim community hall, the muslims have a right to selfdefence too. As the black Panthers demanded. Or if they wanna burn our community hall, we would defende ourself.

I mean, they can talk tough under the first amendment about killing crackers and such bull, but i would shoot back if they would try.

Nobody fears taking action because others are armed -they fear the authorities - as it should be. And I for one am glad that we have cops and federal authorities who are able to infiltrate and bust these Hate group types (of any denomination) before they reek violence. If it came to the point where the only security for all was rival groups stockpiles -your talking about post societal breakdown and trust me, they shit won't be fun.

I never spoke about "my guns" but take position for the right to selfdefence

.

Wasn't it you that said something to the effect "if you want to take my guns, it will be from my cold dead hands..." ...or was that Charlton Heston :rolleyes:

[Beagle 684]

The probem with "self defense", and that's a probleme over here too, ist that some fellow quite to often confuse self defense with a nn existing right for revenge or killing to safe some inferior property....resulting in fleeing assaulter beeign shot in the back or in oen case a man in a wheelchair shooting children for stealing his cherries from the tree.

It's a big differnce in mentality beetween "I let the Police handle this" and "See'n that goon?....where's my damned pump gun"

The second kind of people scares me more, because when this type gets something wrong real trouble starts.

I stood face to face with burglars more than once without a gun at hand, and im still alive...110 (911) did the job well enough.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Beagle

[Minutemen 10]

these Hate group types

"Hate group types"? What is a "hate group" and who defines suchs terms?

Were the branch davidians also a hate group?

Wasn't it you that said something to the effect "if you want to take my guns, it will be from my cold dead hands..."

Wanna pin me down on that? Could be also my other properties or my children.

You call that "swing dick style" if someone has the guts to resist thievery,... well, nice prospects!

resulting in fleeing assaulter beeign shot in the back

Oh no... better let them flee down the road to rob someone else.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Minutemen

[mosh 0]

If you try to enter my home without permission I can legally shoot you dead. If you try to enter my vehicle while I'm in it without my permission I can legally shoot you dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine for a general idea of it... That does not mean that is my first choice. I would prefer to just Mace the intruder and let the cops deal with them if I wasn't truly in danger. But at least I have options.

Other than those blatant examples, I agree that self defense is a very fine line. Most importantly, you need to be truly in fear of your life. Shooting to kill someone who is running away is usually not self defense. But if I felt they still posed a physical threat to others I would consider lethal force.

[froggyluv 2136]

"Hate group types"? What is a "hate group" and who defines suchs terms?

Were the branch davidians also a hate group?

No, they were a cult led by a pedophile. Tim McVeigh, Hate Group type - Militia boys knew about him, I didn't see them coming to Americas defense stopping him. It was the law that grabbed him. Hutaree, their another Hate group.

If your a fringe ideological group that heavily arms itself and actively plans to carry out violence because America ain't the way they like it -well that calls for the need of Federals to step in. Treason is treason.

Wanna pin me down on that? Could be also my other properties or my children.

You call that "swing dick style" if someone has the guts to resist thievery,... well, nice prospects!

I really don't undertsand what your trying to say here -my euphemism was directed toward your "Hands off my guns!!" style when nobody was talking about taking your guns. Resist thievery however you like mate -I have my way and you have yours.

[HyperU2 11]

Well they sure saved those kids. Luckily for the ones Warren Jeffs molested that a Dem wasn't in office when he was arrested. Luckily too, McVeigh didn't have a gun?

[froggyluv 2136]

If they weren't armed like a thirld world army, Feds could have sent a social worker in to solve it. Case in point.

[HyperU2 11]

They could have arrested him at any time in town if they wanted. They wanted a show of force against gun owners. Or a simple knock on the door, he even called 911 when they attacked. Scary shit.

[Beagle 684]

If you try to enter my home without permission I can legally shoot you dead. If you try to enter my vehicle while I'm in it without my permission I can legally shoot you dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine for a general idea of it... That does not mean that is my first choice. I would prefer to just Mace the intruder and let the cops deal with them if I wasn't truly in danger. But at least I have options.

Other than those blatant examples, I agree that self defense is a very fine line. Most importantly, you need to be truly in fear of your life. Shooting to kill someone who is running away is usually not self defense. But if I felt they still posed a physical threat to others I would consider lethal force.

Yes I wrote about how this is handled in the USA, just don't exspect this to work in other countries this way. Shooting someone for just beeing in your house (not trying to assault you in any way, and that's rarely what burglars do, the last I "met" just just kept on opening drawers till I was uncomfortable close, brings you in big trouble over here...and a few years in Jail for sure at least.

And I'm quite happy that the chance to meet a burglar with a gun is extremly rare here due to the limitations and paperwork a legal gun ownership implies. Getting illegal guns is possible yes, but In that case it is hard to get hands on ammuniton since the rules for ammo is as strict as for the guns itself.

So it turned out that I knew a few people that had illegal guns that ran out of ammunition for it years ago. Most of this guns came here from East Germany when the soviet troops that were left behind in the GDR started selling small arms at the barracks gate.

Makarov 9x18 pistol was a top seller in 1991.

On the other hand it is quite easy to get hands on legal firearms here. It just involves a lot of paperwork, a really clean record including no drug or alkohol notes, 1 year membership in a registered gun club, a two day course in weapons handling and gun control law including the issues with guns and self defense.

Usually takes you one year from the "I want a gun" impulse to actually owning one or two or five...this time alone fends of a lot of people already...so the need for it can't be that urgent...not to mention that the firearms prices here are crazy...1100€ for a plain standard 6S&W 686 Revolver and still 900€ for a Glock 17....not to mention H&K G36 variants for civil use (semi only) ranging up to 1800€ without optics. This is by the way, the Rifle you will end with as the resevists rifle.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Beagle
edited my bad typos

[froggyluv 2136]

They could have arrested him at any time in town if they wanted. They wanted a show of force against gun owners. Or a simple knock on the door, he even called 911 when they attacked. Scary shit.

Ill admit execution was poor -but if feds show up on my property to arrest a Pedo -heres the fuckin key.

[mosh 0]

Yes I wrote about How this is handles in the US, just don't exspect this to work in other countries that way. Shooting someone for just beeing in your house (not trying to assalt yoi in any way, and that's rarely what burglar do, the last I just just kept on opening drawers till I was uncomfortable close... brings you in big trouble over here...and a few years in Jail for sure at least.

I understand. Just a short 20 mile drive for me from Missouri across the river to Illinois and gun laws tighten up drastically... and if I was in another country I would abide by their laws as well and doubt I would even bring guns with me unless I was going there to hunt. ;)

I have had to use a gun a couple times in self defense at home, when I was a teenager many years ago. I did not pull the trigger. I did not need to. The sight of the gun and my loud voice did the trick. The intruder stayed about 20 feet away but I knew what to do if I was advanced on.

Gun control is something most people I know learned about the same time we stopped wearing diapers.

On the other hand it is quite easy to get hands on legal gns here...it just involves a lot of papers, a really clean record including no drug or alkohol notes, 1 year membership in a registered gun club, a two day course in weapons handling and gun control law including the issues with guns and self defense...

I go to a gun shop right down the street. It requires a 2 minute call to ATF and 5 minutes of paperwork. I then buy ammo from same gun shop or go across the street to Walmart and buy some. I then drive 30 miles to our wooded property a few counties away and have fun. Unfortunately as of a few years ago I can not shoot single projectile weapons in the City limits of Chesterfield... only shotguns. I'm not happy the law changed by I abide by it.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Mosh