How many Helicopters

[EricM 0]

@ Sam :

1) I don't know about Arma, maybe there's a different level of copyright tolerance for civil and military stuff, since all civil brands are fake (Coyota etc...) while most military ones are pretty realistic...

2) It's only my opinion based on my interpretation of the article and trying to figure out ex-post the reasoning behind the mash-ups : since they want to simulate a wide variety of scenarios across the globe and only have a limited number of helicopter models (out of which none is actually licensed) and general flight models for each (even accounting for tweaks), it makes sense. Hence the Big, medium and small choppers "archetypes" (that denomination is from me, call it how you want).

3) you're using reductio ad absurdum. It's a question of going the 99% right and finding an explanation to avoid the missing 1% which won't change anything to the gameplay and cost you more headaches than anything (not the other way around). I'm not saying it's right, I'm stating what could be a plausible reason (though admitedly probably far behind the licencing question).

Edit : regarding Seattle, It may not be called Seattle at all... just to avoid someone from seattle screaming their favourite starbuck or airfield isn't properly placed... We shall see...

Edited May 18, 2011 by EricM

[samb 15]

@EricM

1) You got the point here actually. I somehow forgot about cars names in Arma. We can only speculate here I'm afraid.

2) I am sorry if my previous reply sounded offencive, I understood "archetype" concept of Yours and I was using quote not to make it look silly, or anything! I still believe that they're limited models of helicopters in real world, no need to mix them together to make it look like ultimate light/ medium/ heavy chopper concept. Actually six models in each category is more than enough for most of us (it takes time to master even one after all), so why doing 6 mash ups instead of 2- 3 realistic models? It just doesn't make much sense to me. Anyways for me personally model accuracy is an issue only coz it makes me doubt BIS approach to realitic aspect of the game. Hell I will personally try to learn a 3d modeling program if no one is going to release proper Seaking for TOH! (I kinda of drifted off the topic here I guess)

3) Well I have no idea I was using "reductio ad absurdum" but it made me feel smart for a second ;). Anyways as I just wrote I hope it's a licence issue, not a sign of developers approach to TOH.

But I'll repeat You "we shall see...". I have high expectations, maybe I'm to picky about some things.

Cheers

Sam

[nightsta1ker 10]

Here's my question. Anyone familiar with the Grumman/Ubisoft debacle? Grumman wanted Ubisoft to pay licensing fees for their name being used in an add on for IL-2 Sturmovich. However, I beleive that Ubisoft could have completely avoided the whole thing if they had not put "Fly the Grumman Wildcat!" on the box for the software. By using the name brand and claiming that their model was accurate to the real thing, they opened themselves up for some problems.

Here is my issue with the models being shown in TOH.

As I have said before, look at the MH-6 for ArmA. Then look at the hybrid MD-500/EC120 for TOH. If they are trying to avoid copyright issues with MD, why did they model the MH-6 accurately? It's made by MD Helicopters. The difference in copyright between military and civilian manufacturers is nonexistant, as the Grumman case brings to point. They can simply avoid any kind of lawsuit by not NAMING the aircraft specifically. Hell, the can call it a HUGHES 500 and avoid any kind of lawsuit there! Hughes made the 500 design for decades before selling the rights to McDonald-Douglas who then got bought out by Boeing, who sold the rights to the airframe to MD Helicopters who continue to manufacture them. Or they could just not name it at all. They could reference it as the "500" model, not specifying the manufacturer. And as for avoiding all the nitpickers out there... as was already pointed out, no two aircraft are exactly the same. Show me two helicopters where all the dials, gauges, switches, rivets, and bolts are all in exactly the same place and I will be surprised. They are built to order for whatever needs need to be filled by the buyer.

In short, my opinion is: F**** the copyright stuff, or the name brand. Call it something else, who cares? I just want to see a somewhat accurate 500 and 212. I could really care less if they call it something different. Going so far as to make the models look different is overkill.

Bohemia is going to do what they want. I am sure the decision has been made, and I am sure they have their reasons, but after years of seeing VERY accurate and realistic aircraft coming out for Flight Simulator, and after seeing realistic aircraft for ArmA I and II, I am a little disapointed we don't get the same treatement for TOH.

[4 IN 1 0]

Then here we are again, take it or leave it, problem solved.

[bobocz 10]

Heeey developers, please we need answer to stop argue. Or at least give us some nice new picture so we can "talk" about something else.

Anyway it is needless because today 15:30 CET world will "end" as I'm reading "Hack" thread. :D

Edited May 19, 2011 by BoboCZ

[samb 15]

@4in1

This is exactly what is going to happen, no need to write obvious. BTW there is nothing wrong with such discussion, as it gives developers insight into community's point of view.

@BoboCZ

Unles that picture shows another hybrid chopper lol

Sam

[4 IN 1 0]

@4in1

This is exactly what is going to happen, no need to write obvious. BTW there is nothing wrong with such discussion, as it gives developers insight into community's point of view.

Given the experence I have on this community, no, I don't think that is going to happen, even after I have point out the obvious.

[samb 15]

But You have many guys who don't really belong to Arma community here (they seem to be the one You are refering to I guess). BIS is going to need flight sim enthusiasts imput if they want to go for a flight sim as it is different from what they were doing so far. This is what I believe anyway. I have never made any game, so I might be wrong here.

Sam

[nightsta1ker 10]

As I have stated before, BIS is going to do what they are going to do. I will be buying the product regardless. I am just voicing my humble opinion (even if it doesn't read so humble sometimes). In MY opinion, there is no good reason not to have at least SOMEWHAT accurately modeled helicopters in this game. Of course, we don't know what BIS' reasoning is so it's all speculation. The fact that they have not commented on this discussion yet leads me to beleive that they are either on the fence about it, or they are rooted in cement on it and either way have no comment. If they are on the fence, I hope that my comments can help bring them around. If they are rooted in cement, they don't give a toot and will just ignore my posts anyway.

Whichever way the cookie crumbles, I am sure we will see accurate models show up for the game post release. There are alot of talented people in this community, and if the flight dynamics and other features are worth it to the sim community, you will get a whole lot more talented people coming into the ranks.

I think I've said my piece on the matter.

[subs17 9]

Can we get some Rusty UH-1's? to Simulate the NZ AirForce? you know having the floors covered with bits of wood and all that?

They have A109s and NH90s on order, Iriquois will be in museums soon.:D

---------- Post added at 05:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:18 PM ----------

What any sim developer must do is approach the manufactuer of the aircraft they wish to simulate then they have access to accurate FM data and knowledge on the avionics etc. You also need a couple of real life pilots to test the FM during beta testing to ensure the aircraft is accurately modeled. In some cases developers have been sent up on flights to see(Xsi - T38C) how the aircraft handle IRL and get an idea of what it is they are trying to simulate. Making imaginery aircraft hinders development of a simulated aircraft and makes it arcade level which I doubt BI is trying to achieve. Its not just the 3d model that needs to be perfected or the FM its a combination of features as well as capabilitys of the aircraft. The other problem is sales, simmers won't be attracted to an arcade game with imaginery aircraft and thats your target audience not FPS as in Arma. If it models a walkaround inspection with birds nests then I'd be surprised if it were fictional aircraft they were modelling.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

For me, it's more important that gauge markings are 100% correct to the whatever the FM is, compared to having a FM that 100% matches the real world (which probably can't be achieved anyway). So colored arcs in the airpeed indicator should match the behavior of the current FM rather than it's real world counterpart.

I hate it when they use real world instruments which doesn't match the current FM. Like marked clean stall at 50 KIAS where you can go as low as 35 KIAS in the FM. In this case, the markings and text about the aircraft should have been changed to match the FM rather than keep the data from the real world flight manual.

[4 IN 1 0]

They have A109s and NH90s on order, Iriquois will be in museums soon.:D

---------- Post added at 05:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:18 PM ----------

What any sim developer must do is approach the manufactuer of the aircraft they wish to simulate then they have access to accurate FM data and knowledge on the avionics etc. You also need a couple of real life pilots to test the FM during beta testing to ensure the aircraft is accurately modeled. In some cases developers have been sent up on flights to see(Xsi - T38C) how the aircraft handle IRL and get an idea of what it is they are trying to simulate. Making imaginery aircraft hinders development of a simulated aircraft and makes it arcade level which I doubt BI is trying to achieve. Its not just the 3d model that needs to be perfected or the FM its a combination of features as well as capabilitys of the aircraft. The other problem is sales, simmers won't be attracted to an arcade game with imaginery aircraft and thats your target audience not FPS as in Arma. If it models a walkaround inspection with birds nests then I'd be surprised if it were fictional aircraft they were modelling.

Which gives me an idea: you give BI a NASA billion dollar to make sure they can make the AF perfect down to every bolt and nut, everyone is happy!:p

[liquidpinky 11]

Which gives me an idea: you give BI a NASA billion dollar to make sure they can make the AF perfect down to every bolt and nut, everyone is happy!:p

Yep, unfortunately the free advertising of their product deosn't seem to cut it with penny grabbing accountants these days. You have to pay for the right to advertise it for them.

I am on BIS's side on this, fuck them and give it a fictional name.