Engaging from more than 500m plus ?

[max power 21]

SUMMARY-

At around 300m or more, the enemy usually won't spot you (even if you're standing), as long as you don't fire.

I think it would be more apt to say that they don't recognize you as a threat at 300m. More information can be gleaned by outputting the AI's 'knowsabout' value regarding the player during those tests.

[fabrizio_t 58]

I then ran it at 400m and 600m, and as before the squad never saw me until I began firing, then they returned fire and slew me.

However, at these longer ranges they took longer to spot me (around 20 to 30 secs) even though I was firing.

Also, at 600m I don't think any rifles were firing at me, just the squads 2 machineguns.

PS- the squad contained this 'Marksman', but whether he ever fired I don't know

SUMMARY-

At around 300m or more, the enemy usually won't spot you (even if you're standing), as long as you don't fire.

At longer ranges out to around 600m and more, standard riflemen tend not to engage you (even if they can see you) because their weapons haven't the range, but their MG's will engage at long range.

(But as always remember these were just tests, and results may vary during games depending on various factors such as difficulty level, visibility, weather, day/night, weaponry, crouching, crawling, prone etc)

Hi, old problems from ArmA, still there in ArmA2:

• Engine is not capable to handle properly spotting of still infantrymen, even close. Problem is worse in urban environment.
  If you put threats on the move they will spotted easily in the 300m. range, if they're still chance is they won't.
  
• spot distance / time are hindered by CfgVehicles config. You can achieve longer range detection by tweaking sensitivity settings in config and/or reduce spotting time by lowering accuracy accordingly.
  

[cartier90 0]

Which part of the config should I be tweaking

- I can find the ARMAOAPROFILE - but not sure which values to change ?

thanks....

[JdB 151]

If you put threats on the move they will spotted easily in the 300m. range, if they're still chance is they won't.

Just like in real life. A moving object is more easily spotted than a stationary object. A properly camouflaged sniper can be invisible even at ranges less than a hundred meters. If that same sniper sneaks, walks or runs around at 350m, you're more likely to see him than when he was much closer, and just laying still. It's part of how the human brain works. The same is true for regular infantrymen, although somewhat less as they aren't camouflaged as effectively.

[maturin 12]

I disagree the M16A4 service rifle is accurate up 550 meters, but is still effective up to 1000 in the scenario where you need to suppress the enemy.

I'm running ACE and Zeus as well and am having trouble setting up my mission so that the enemy will engage a small outpost in the Kunar region map. I'm trying to get them to engage from low draws up towards an outpost or with dshkm from mountainside to mountainside, even using the doWatch, doTarget, and doFire inits in those OPFOR units they're still just standing there, it has to be me that initiates contact which sucks because IRL it's usually the muj that starts the gunfight.

You should give them civilian spotters. Put a civilian in their group and place him close by with doStop. Just put him in cover otherwise your AI might shoot him.

[pooroldspike 129]

I only play vanilla Comb Ops, so I don't know about how anything works with Zeus or Ace or any other addons. My tests are therefore only valid for people who are singing from the same song sheet as me:- vanilla Comb Ops..:)

[lsp 10]

My only issue was that Sniper fire , once made - is not instigated at 800 900m plus - yes its a long way , but real snipers fire 1200 m plus no problem.....

not with a 7.62 they dont...... and it would be extremely difficult to spot someone that far off.. most 7.62 rifles wouldn even be equipped with a optic powerful enough to do that and if the fuckn guy is in camo somewhere hiding your most likely not gana find him theres alot of things that come into play with this even if the guy was wearn blazing orange hunting gear and jumping up and down it would be hard to find him unless your on completely flat ground with nothing around im talking from a rl situation not from a game stand point which is the way i play arma imo is the way its meant to be played and someone who said a 556 is effective up to 1000yards rlly? maybe in the game... annd those guys that make those crazy mile plus shots set up on their targets not returning fire in stressed o shit someone is shooting at us situation like saying after those mastermind sharpshooters that pull these crazy 1250m shots off imediately start taking return fire after engaging their target doesn go down like that you would be more worried about finding cover then returning fire specially when your friend explodes and you hear the shot 3-4 seconds later you know hes far as fuck 1200m is not no problem.. those guys train and train and train and not everyone can do that even with the training have you even held a firearm much less fire one cause it doesn seem like it

Edited March 20, 2011 by lsp

[cartier90 0]

Yeah, I suppose 600m is a very long way. I play golf and a 500 yard (450m) hole is just a ridiculous way away to hit someone with a Rifle, let alone further.

[The Hebrew Hammer 10]

I lied, its effective to 800 meters, not accurately, but it will have killing power, effective to 550 meters for a specific target.

and how would attaching civis to the militia increase their range? I thought that linking them together would force that civilian to be a part of that units formation.

[Joe98 91]

PoorOldSpike, in the test above, you tested whether OpForce could spot BlueForce troops at certain distances.

How about you turn it around and see if BlueForce can spot OpForce troops at those same distances.

-

[maturin 12]

I lied, its effective to 800 meters, not accurately, but it will have killing power, effective to 550 meters for a specific target.

and how would attaching civis to the militia increase their range? I thought that linking them together would force that civilian to be a part of that units formation.

If you set the civilians to None, as opposed to In Formation, and don't allow them to move, they will spawn where placed and stay put. And since they can easily spot the BLUFOR, they will relay the position of the outpost back to their armed group members. At that point, given the effective range of the Dishka, they may well open fire. It's often positive identification that is the problem with long-range firefights. That the Takiban are willing to return American fire is proof of this.

[dwringer 45]

I am pretty sure I read an article somewhere that said the SVD was designed to give infantry squads an effective range of small arms fire of 600 meters, and trying to hit anybody at that distance with anything less than 7.62x54 is a crapshoot at best.

[lsp 10]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XprilfaMgpY just a video i made i dont own fraps so its only thirty seconds and no sound read the description

---------- Post added at 05:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:09 AM ----------

I am pretty sure I read an article somewhere that said the SVD was designed to give infantry squads an effective range of small arms fire of 600 meters, and trying to hit anybody at that distance with anything less than 7.62x54 is a crapshoot at best.

sounds right to me

heres one at longer range 1200yards

Edited March 21, 2011 by lsp

[Ollie1983 10]

The effectiveness of standard infantry small arms diminishes rapidly beyond 400m, the weapons are not manufactured precisely enough, nor is their ammo. This doesn't mean their rounds come to a stop at 400m and drop to the ground, they still wing on but at reduced speeds and suffer drop as you would expect. Their lethality begins to tail off but that said a round from a M249 will still penetrate a US ballistic helmet at 1200 yards. The lack of overall accuracy being totally offset by the sheer number of rounds you can put down in an effective cone at the enemy- A machinegun that spat all its rounds at precisely the same pin prick would be pointless- their inherent inaccuracy is their strength.

The collective fire from a platoon or section would be more than 400mm though I am unsure how far this is and it would depend on what weapons were involved and their optics (if any), perhaps a serving soldier here can tell us.

Bear in mind that 300m or more is quite a distance and even human sized objects become difficult to spot at range unless they are moving- also most of the time folk in war zones wear DPM or something to blend in with their environment.

I personally found Arma a steep learning curve because games like MW2 have made me lazy- where 50m is considered a long range engagement. Hence I have put the maximum amount of time into training with iron sight weapons (AK47, vanilla M16 and the GPMG), to give myself time to get a feel for the engagement distances and need to aim off with them, all without optics as it forces you to move a lot more tactically and be more observant. It is also handy to be able to reliably estimate distances if you use servers where many HUD aids are disabled.

[fabrizio_t 58]

Which part of the config should I be tweaking

- I can find the ARMAOAPROFILE - but not sure which values to change ?

thanks....

Sorry, by config i meant CfgVehicles configuration stored in .pbo files. You have to look into config.bin of both characters.pbo and characters2.pbo, if i recall correctly. Obviously you'll need Pbo/dePbo tools to do that.

Then you may create your own addon overriding default settings.

[lsp 10]

The effectiveness of standard infantry small arms diminishes rapidly beyond 400m, the weapons are not manufactured precisely enough, nor is their ammo. This doesn't mean their rounds come to a stop at 400m and drop to the ground, they still wing on but at reduced speeds and suffer drop as you would expect. Their lethality begins to tail off but that said a round from a M249 will still penetrate a US ballistic helmet at 1200 yards. The lack of overall accuracy being totally offset by the sheer number of rounds you can put down in an effective cone at the enemy- A machinegun that spat all its rounds at precisely the same pin prick would be pointless- their inherent inaccuracy is their strength.

The collective fire from a platoon or section would be more than 400mm though I am unsure how far this is and it would depend on what weapons were involved and their optics (if any), perhaps a serving soldier here can tell us.

Bear in mind that 300m or more is quite a distance and even human sized objects become difficult to spot at range unless they are moving- also most of the time folk in war zones wear DPM or something to blend in with their environment.

I personally found Arma a steep learning curve because games like MW2 have made me lazy- where 50m is considered a long range engagement. Hence I have put the maximum amount of time into training with iron sight weapons (AK47, vanilla M16 and the GPMG), to give myself time to get a feel for the engagement distances and need to aim off with them, all without optics as it forces you to move a lot more tactically and be more observant. It is also handy to be able to reliably estimate distances if you use servers where many HUD aids are disabled.

ive seen on the military channel and heard stories 5.56x45 cant even penetrate windsheilds at 300yards the round fragments when it hits although i will say ive fired a 223 rem(which is pretty much the same thing) through a steel drum at 200yards (about the size of a human head) so who knows no im not sure of the quality or thickness of the metal it was a old brake drum or something of that nature

Edited March 22, 2011 by lsp

[maturin 12]

ive seen on the military channel and heard stories 5.56x45 cant even penetrate windsheilds at 300yards the round fragments when it hits although i will say ive fired a 223 rem(which is pretty much the same thing) through a steel drum at 200yards (about the size of a human head) so who knows no im not sure of the quality or thickness of the metal it was a old brake drum or something of that nature

5.56 will go through the entire car, nevermind the windshield. You don't want to be in a car that's being shot at once those bullet fragments start bouncing around the interior. Not terrible reliable trying to headshot a driver, but one wonders why you would be shooting a single bullet at an entire vehicle.

[lsp 10]

it was a example response to the guy in my quote saying a 5.56 would go through a kevlar at 1200yards and ive seen a car being shot with a 5.56 at 300yards with a soft target on the other side with no penetration not even through the glass it was the demo for the new 6.8 round compared to the 5.56 shouldn say no penetration it went through one side of the vehicle but not through both door panels which the 5.56 was never designed for in the first place thats why we use it it does massive tissue damage

Edited March 22, 2011 by lsp

[maturin 12]

it was a example response to the guy in my quote saying a 5.56 would go through a kevlar at 1200yards and ive seen a car being shot with a 5.56 at 300yards with a soft target on the other side with no penetration it was the demo for the new 6.8 round compared to the 5.56 shouldn say no penetration in went through one side of the vehicle but not through both door panels which the 5.56 was never designed for in the first place thats why we use it it does massive tissue damage

Well, bullets will bounce off just about anything. I'm not sure advertisements for other products is a good source.

And I've seen 5.54x39mm go through two metal car doors, so the 5.56 is certainly capable of it. Just not reliably. I don't think any bullet is truly reliable after hitting any significant obstacle.

[lsp 10]

iduno ive seen my mausers(7.92x57) 8mm go through trees pretty reliably =) at good distances im just being a smart ass now but yeh lol i get what your saying what type of ammo was it? as in grain fmj soft tip etc etc they didnt specify that on the show so yeh.. they could have used junk ammo but even still if you look around you can find reports from combat of soldiers complaining about the rounds capabilitys also this has gotten out of hand i think for what this post was about

Edited March 23, 2011 by lsp

[walker 0]

Hi all

Just to reiterate what others have said Zeus AI is probably the easiest way to get good realistic long range firefights.

Kind Regards walker

[cartier90 0]

I posted this link on another thread, pertinent to this one as well though...

Very dependent on the exact location as to what a round will do - amazing vid.

.............................

Edited March 23, 2011 by cartier90

[max power 21]

Your url isn't proper. URLs shouldn't have ... in them.

[Beagle 684]

Well, bullets will bounce off just about anything. I'm not sure advertisements for other products is a good source.

And I've seen 5.54x39mm go through two metal car doors, so the 5.56 is certainly capable of it. Just not reliably. I don't think any bullet is truly reliable after hitting any significant obstacle.

I don't want to spoil your party but even a .22 LR HV fired from a 60cm barrel is able to penetrate a car door. typical thickness of metal sheet car parts are made from is 1.2mm.

Im using a scoped 6,5x55 for hunting porpose quite often but i would not really consider to use it beyond 200meters for a good first killing hit probability...it is zeroed in for 180m.

Edited March 23, 2011 by Beagle

[cartier90 0]

link will work now...