Libyan Air-force ordered to bomb protesters

[Tonci87 163]

You said it.

Im also not defending any side.Just giving an example of propaganda.There was similar things on the other side too.Friendly fire (mortar shelling) was displayed as enemy fire, or there was example of newspapers article in which were given names and addresses of Serb residents in one Croatian town.

However, I do agree with you, but history is written by the victors, and in this case Croatia is the victor.

True, but it shall not be forgotten who attacked in this war. There weren´t croatian soldiers in serbia, but an awfull lot of serbian soldiers in croatia.

Abhazia and Kosovo are not independent

Kosovo is independent! Most big nations have accepted that. Only nations that have problems with parts of their territory demanding independence have denied that

[maturin 12]

True, but it shall not be forgotten who attacked in this war. There weren´t croatian soldiers in serbia, but an awfull lot of serbian soldiers in croatia.

Well, there were a lot of non-soldier Serbs in Croatia too, living there for hundreds of years past, under a president who was perhaps 5% less inflammatory and warmongering as Milosevic.

[Tonci87 163]

Hundreds of years past? Who told you that? Serbs heavily begann to come to croatia after the second world war. The main capital of the "Serbian krajina territory" Knin was in fact the old croatian kings town. Serbians didn´t have a long history in croatia. Milosevic planed to bring up a great Serbia on the territory of yugoslawia. according to him, there was no place for non serbs.

[Dropper 10]

Correct me if Im wrong but I think Serbs were "brought" in that territory while Military Krajina was present to defend borders of Habsburg Monarchy.

[maturin 12]

Correct me if Im wrong but I think Serbs were "brought" in that territory while Military Krajina was present to defend borders of Habsburg Monarchy.

Exactly. Fleeing from Ottoman advances and offered settlement in the borderlands is how I heard it.

Milosevic planed to bring up a great Serbia on the territory of yugoslawia. according to him, there was no place for non serbs.

That was the back-up plan. Remember how he and Tudjman agreed to dismember Bosnia between them? Both sides wanted all the territory where any of their people lived.

[Dropper 10]

Shit just got serious, look like rebels have shot down Libyan airplane, pilots KIA.

[maturin 12]

Shit just got serious, look like rebels have shot down Libyan airplane, pilots KIA.

Well, crap. It looks the guy who shot it down did it with a KPV (14.5mm) that only had one barrel working, on his first day at work.

[Daniel 0]

So much for Zu-23s being unfit for taking down jet fighters. Just goes to show real life doesn't play by the rules.

[Beagle 684]

So much for Zu-23s being unfit for taking down jet fighters. Just goes to show real life doesn't play by the rules.

Works ingame too whenever the Jets comes that low. Quite often a incoming Jet pilot is killed by the AA MG on MBTs in game. I don't see where reality and game do not coincide here.

[Daniel 0]

It was meant in reference to this:

Also, the front page of the NYT shows a guy with a Strela on his back, which is good, because the rusty old 14.5mm guns we've seen so far weren't going to get them anywhere, and untrained insurgents won't do too well with ZU-23s either. Or at least that's a good thing until some of those MANPADs end up somewhere else.

They're probably well within range, but shit, I can't hit jets with that gun even in Arma 2, where traversing and handling the gun is as simple as flicking the mouse. It doesn't strike me as a good weapon for amateurs.

Let's be honest, he did pretty well for a guy using a half-broke 60s AA gun.

Edited March 5, 2011 by Daniel

[maturin 12]

Let's be honest, he did pretty well for a guy using a half-broke 60s AA gun.

I know, I was doubting the abilities of armed civilians. I'd imagine shooting down a jet with a gun takes more training than just about anything else in war.

So kudos to that guy.

[Big Mac 19]

It will take about 10 hours for me to get in Grozny by car. I live not far from there. And I have some mates (chechens) of different ages living (or lived) there. Enough? I still remember weekly reports from the border of Stavropol region and Chechnya in 1996-1999, which counted number of gang raids, kidnappings, murders etc. commited by gangs of former "fighters for free Chechnya", who didn't want to work hard but wanted to get all they need fast.

You havent answered either of my questions. Are you Chechen and have you lived in chechnya? I take the answer is no which means you don't know shit. Also you keep omitting all the war crimes the russians committed which overshadow a lot of the crimes the chechen committed against their own people which 9 out of 10 times were committed while in service to the russians...

[Beagle 684]

I know, I was doubting the abilities of armed civilians. I'd imagine shooting down a jet with a gun takes more training than just about anything else in war.

So kudos to that guy.

You may have to consider that there are armies in the world that still draft evey young man for 1-2 years. (like it happend to me) so it can be that almost any male in that country was a soldier once and had the appropriate training for the weapon he has adopted now.

Even when its been 15 Years ago no, you can give me any weapon I was trained at at any time and I can still use it in a professional way...its like driving a bicycle.

I just checked it. Yes...Lybia has a concription army with 18 month service time. There you have your "civilians" it's a trained militia army ermerged from former conscripts. Additionally lots of active soldiers already joined the rebelllion.

Edited March 5, 2011 by Beagle

[maturin 12]

I just checked it. Yes...Lybia has a concription army with 18 month service time. There you have your "civilians" it's a trained militia army ermerged from former conscripts. Additionally lots of active soldiers already joined the rebelllion.

Libya's army is small, under-equipped and poorly-trained. Keeping only a pathetic force as a standing army was Qaddafi's plan for holding onto power. It's bearing fruit now that he can rely on his elite private forces. If the Libyan army was anything to sneeze at, the rebellion would be in uniform.

Anyways, if Qaddafi keeps gaining in the west and the country divides in two, this is going to be a disaster. Everything relies on whether the rebels can hold power in both regions.

[Baff1 0]

The rebels captured an SAS team.

Ghadafi has a Dutch helicopter crew.

---------- Post added at 03:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:47 AM ----------

So you're saying he never gave orders to kill unarmed protesters?

Okay then, I guess it's all cool now, he's a good guy.

I'm saying I've been in the newspapers myself and I know how it goes.

They have a story they want to tell, that their readers want to hear.

The facts that they choose to report and the facts that they choose not to depend on their own agenda's.

Facts that reinforce their beliefs will get reported. Facts that do not, will not.

Never, ever, ever, take a news story at face value.

They are selling a story first, reporting the news second.

Ghadaffi is a good guy to some and a bad guy to others.

Those that want to hear about how he is a bad guy will enjoy stories about ordering the death of unarmed civilians, those that want to hear how he is a good guy will enjoy stories of him ordering the protection of unarmed civilians.

The Russians will enjoy stories of how Britain and America want to invade but don't dare.

The Americans will enjoy stories about rebels wanting democracy.

I will enjoy stories about SAS men fighting for the oil fields I have invested in. Etc etc etc.

Meanwhile in the Ivory Coast gangs of young men rape women by the hundred, mass murder and cut off peoples limbs in droves and none of us will bother with that story at all.

Welcome to the world of propaganda.

All these stories are true. Which one you prefer to listen to says a lot about who you are.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Baff1

[maturin 12]

They have a story they want to tell, that their readers want to hear.

The facts that they choose to report and the facts that they choose not to depend on their own agenda's.

Facts that reinforce their beliefs will get reported. Facts that do not, will not.

Yeah, why hasn't Al Jazeera run a headline reading 'Qaddafi Does Not Fire on Demonstrators,' or 'Qaddafi's Secret Police Kidnap and Torture No One Today.'

The media likes to get all up in everyone's face about mass murderers, but we never get to hear about all the days they didn't murder anyone, en mass or even one at a time. And really, given the daily routine of most officials and generals, over 95% of the average mass murderer's time is spent not mass murdering or even planning mass murder.

Meanwhile in the Ivory Coast gangs of young men rape women by the hundred.

Excuse me, I don't like your tone. Those gangs of young men are good guys to some.

[concurssi 11]

I'm saying I've been in the newspapers myself and I know how it goes.

They have a story they want to tell, that their readers want to hear.

The facts that they choose to report and the facts that they choose not to depend on their own agenda's.

Facts that reinforce their beliefs will get reported. Facts that do not, will not.

Never, ever, ever, take a news story at face value.

They are selling a story first, reporting the news second.

Ghadaffi is a good guy to some and a bad guy to others.

Those that want to hear about how he is a bad guy will enjoy stories about ordering the death of unarmed civilians, those that want to hear how he is a good guy will enjoy stories of him ordering the protection of unarmed civilians.

The Russians will enjoy stories of how Britain and America want to invade but don't dare.

The Americans will enjoy stories about rebels wanting democracy.

I will enjoy stories about SAS men fighting for the oil fields I have invested in. Etc etc etc.

Meanwhile in the Ivory Coast gangs of young men rape women by the hundred, mass murder and cut off peoples limbs in droves and none of us will bother with that story at all.

Welcome to the world of propaganda.

All these stories are true. Which one you prefer to listen to says a lot about who you are.

I know that. I'm not an idiot. But that doesn't change the fact that Gaddafi is an evil mofo that needs to lose this thing.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Concurssi
fixed typo

[Tonci87 163]

Correct me if Im wrong but I think Serbs were "brought" in that territory while Military Krajina was present to defend borders of Habsburg Monarchy.

You are right, but only a few serbs really settled there. The croats were still the great majority. It changed after the second world war. Croats became a minority in their own city, so to say.

[Baff1 0]

Yeah, why hasn't Al Jazeera run a headline reading 'Qaddafi Does Not Fire on Demonstrators,' or 'Qaddafi's Secret Police Kidnap and Torture No One Today.'

When Al Jazeera was running stories about the evil atrocities of America, I doubt you were so quick to defend them.

I highly doubt you were one of those people applauding them for their impartiality back then.

---------- Post added at 02:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:39 PM ----------

But that doesn't change the fact that Gaddafi is an evil mofo that needs to lost this thing.

He's not really a big bugbear of mine.

Is he any more evil than what came before him?

Is he any more evil than what we can expect to replace him?

In all honesty, I don't really care. This is all just entertainment for me.

It makes no difference here who wins.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Baff1

[Rovka 14]

All we can do is trying to take care for such to not happen in our own homecountries. But a standing fact is that where people go, problems follow hot on the heels. Thats what you get in an overcrowded world..

[Dropper 10]

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xhdyx2_les-rebelles-libyens-affirment-avoir-abattu-un-avion-deux-morts_news

Su-24 is what they shot down.

This situation is quite similar to OA setting.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Dropper

[maturin 12]

When Al Jazeera was running stories about the evil atrocities of America, I doubt you were so quick to defend them.

I highly doubt you were one of those people applauding them for their impartiality back then.

Which evil atrocities are you referring to? White Phosphorus in Fallujah? Border policy? I don't really recall.

I don't take Qatari news TV that seriously, but I regard Al Jazeera English as generally credible and prefer their perspective on world events to native options. Someone needs to report on the excesses of the world's only superpower, and better that it's someone comparatively trustworthy.

I'm not such an idiot as to call them impartial, nor do I recall saying anything to that effect. But there is such a thing as fact and judgment, no matter your efforts to piss off every political viewpoint by espousing the most wishy washy moral relativistic sentiments while displaying your courage of no convictions.

[jakerod 254]

UK Forces held in Libya Freed

[Baff1 0]

I'm not such an idiot as to call them impartial, nor do I recall saying anything to that effect. But there is such a thing as fact and judgment, no matter your efforts to piss off every political viewpoint by espousing the most wishy washy moral relativistic sentiments while displaying your courage of no convictions.

I consider all of the news channels I watch to be both factual and judgemental.

The choice of which facts they choose to present being based on their judgement and not mine.

I think it's my being able to read between the lines that allows me little insghts.. like us having special forces on the ground despite no facts of this having been presented. etc. (Maybe it does maybe it doesn't, but that's what I think). If I was to take things at face value only, I'd miss half the story.

I don't have any convictions at all with regards to Ghaddafi. Sorry.

Why should I have?

I find myself dubious of all those who display them but have no reason to hold them. Hysteria.

Nor are my opinions designed to piss you off or anybody else off, thank you very much. You overestimate your importance to me.

---------- Post added at 07:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:47 PM ----------

UK Forces held in Libya Freed

Nice one. That was a lot quicker than I expected.

Looks like we're still in business in eastern Libya.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Baff1

[maturin 12]

I don't have any convictions at all with regards to Ghaddafi. Sorry.

Why should I have?

I can understand not believing in democracy. But that's different from not believing in the existence of democrats.