Libyan Air-force ordered to bomb protesters

[maturin 12]

+ wayyyy OT.

did you guys also read reports of Libyan aircrafts seemingly missing their targets by far, like it was missed on purpose?

That's likely, but there is a very impressive video (that I can't find anymore) of a bomb landing 70m from some Aljazeera journalists. They're not all missing.

They think that the airforce is in horrible shape because of sanctions, and most of the bombing targets are weapons caches and oil facilities.

Also, the front page of the NYT shows a guy with a Strela on his back, which is good, because the rusty old 14.5mm guns we've seen so far weren't going to get them anywhere, and untrained insurgents won't do too well with ZU-23s either. Or at least that's a good thing until some of those MANPADs end up somewhere else.

Firefight courtesy of Russia Today:

Edited March 4, 2011 by maturin

[mach2infinity 12]

That's likely, but there is a very impressive video (that I can't find anymore) of a bomb landing 70m from some Aljazeera journalists. They're not all missing.

They think that the airforce is in horrible shape because of sanctions, and most of the bombing targets are weapons caches and oil facilities.

Also, the front page of the NYT shows a guy with a Strela on his back, which is good, because the rusty old 14.5mm guns we've seen so far weren't going to get them anywhere, and untrained insurgents won't do too well with ZU-23s either. Or at least that's a good thing until some of those MANPADs end up somewhere else.

Firefight courtesy of Russia Today:

The AA guns used by the rebels such as the ZU-23, is their range too short to hit the Libyan fighter jets at their operational altitude?

[Baff1 0]

They had some Igla's I saw too, and the jets seemed low enough for either.

They aren't impressing me much so far.. the Libyan pilots.

But I doubt they are using laser guided bombs from 10,000 feet, probably they are dive bombing in fighter planes built in the 1960's.

[maturin 12]

;1867923']The AA guns used by the rebels such as the ZU-23' date=' is their range too short to hit the Libyan fighter jets at their operational altitude?[/quote']

They're probably well within range, but shit, I can't hit jets with that gun even in Arma 2, where traversing and handling the gun is as simple as flicking the mouse. It doesn't strike me as a good weapon for amateurs.

[spooky lynx 73]

Seems like another scarecrow is activated to help with starting "another small successful war"©. All this story looks for me just like others with Saddam Hussain, Bin Laden and Slobodan Miloshevich.

...oh yeah, and media works just like in 08.08.08 during 2nd osetian war.

[maturin 12]

Seems like another scarecrow is activated to help with starting "another small successful war"©. All this story looks for me just like others with Saddam Hussain, Bin Laden and Slobodan Miloshevich.

...oh yeah, and media works just like in 08.08.08 during 2nd osetian war.

Ossetia was the smallest, most successful war of recent memory. I hope you didn't miss that one.

[spooky lynx 73]

I was not far from Osetia at that time, in the places of "2nd front" opened by Abhazians:)

"another small successful war" - I meant another conflict broken up by US to overthrow unfriendly regime. Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan - Libya may be among them in nead future, unfortunately. All I can is to wish good luck to Quaddafi. I hope he wouldn't become second Hussain or Miloshevich.

[maturin 12]

"another small successful war" - I meant another conflict broken up by US to overthrow unfriendly regime. Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan

I meant another conflict broken up by Russia to overthrow a friendly regime. Georgia, Moldova, Chechnya, Tajikistan.

All I can is to wish good luck to Quaddafi. I hope he wouldn't become second Hussain or Miloshevich.

That's disgusting. He's an insane dictator pariah who is about to be thrown out of the country by his own people, with zero instigation or aid from any other country. The only question is whether he kills a few thousand people in the process with artillery and bombs, or floods Tripoli with mustard gas, or tortures kidnapped protesters.

For someone who criticizes his country's foreign policy 95% of the time, I still can't stand the wildly popular, infantile worldview that would sing the praises of a neo-nazi puppy rapist if only the U.S. took a disliking to him.

[spooky lynx 73]

I meant another conflict broken up by Russia to overthrow a friendly regime. Georgia, Moldova, Chechnya, Tajikistan.

Georgia? I would really wish you not to live in Sukhum or Tshinval in 1992 and to meet some georgian Mhedrioni or army guys. That would end up very bad to you. So recent conflict has its roots back in 1991-1992 and Gamsakhurdia nationalist regime (one of his favorite phrases was "Georgia - only for georgians").

Moldova? What do you know about it? And who tried to overthrow Snegur?:confused: Moldavian nationalists and army were kicked back from Transnistria, that's true. But you'd better watch some footage which depicted those who was murdered by moldavian nationalists (russians, ukrainians, belorussians).

Chechnya? Heh, it's part of Russia. Nuff said.

Tajikistan? Rahmonov is ruling there till now. He won the president's chair in civil war.

That's disgusting. He's an insane dictator pariah who is about to be thrown out of the country by his own people, with zero instigation or aid from any other country. The only question is whether he kills a few thousand people in the process with artillery and bombs, or floods Tripoli with mustard gas, or tortures kidnapped protesters.

For someone who criticizes his country's foreign policy 95% of the time, I still can't stand the wildly popular, infantile worldview that would sing the praises of a neo-nazi puppy rapist if only the U.S. took a disliking to him.

You was told that he's insane and believe it. Sad.:rolleyes:

Just an hour ago I've read LJ post of one of workers (russian) who left Libya. What he says and shows on photo looks is just opposite to all Al-Jazeera and other media BS. Quaddafi ald Libya face mediawar, the main purpose of which is to make people like you, Maturin, to shout "He's insane!!! He will kill thousands!!! Go and smash him and whole his country!!!". The same was told about Hussain and Miloshevich.

All I've read in the posts of that blogger - there's no any opposition which is shown on YouTube and TV. All that protests, fierce firefights are 80% BS. The crowds of people not fight but fire in nowhere and search something to steal. He was laughing when some media like CNN or Al Jazeera told that another bunch of generals joined opposition, and at the same time this generals were shown at state libyan TV live reports with Quaddafi:D

This is the post (in russian), anyone, who wants, can translate it and read.

Edited March 5, 2011 by Spooky Lynx

[concurssi 11]

Wow. I would never have thought we would get a Gaddafi zombie on the BIS forums.

[Dropper 10]

Trust in media.Lol.

I mean, he can't be normal person since he is a dictator, but hey, don't be stupid and think that everything what media throws at us is true.

We had war in Croatia and do you know how Serbian and Montenegrin (then Yugoslav) media worked?

Example: "30000 well armed Ustashi's are moving toward Montenegrin border..."

Real truth was aprox. 700 underarmed locals defending their own homeland.

I think they are just preparing us for the invasion of Libya.They must justify it somehow.Just like it was in Iraq.

[Tonci87 163]

Chechnya? Heh, it's part of Russia. Nuff said.

I bet the People there think otherwise.....

I hope he wouldn't become second Hussain or Miloshevich.

But you do know that Milosevic really deserved to be sentenced for life?

Croatian people wanted freedom for croatia and fought his regime.

We had war in Croatia and do you know how Serbian and Montenegrin (then Yugoslav) media worked?

Example: "30000 well armed Ustashi's are moving toward Montenegrin border..."

Real truth was aprox. 700 underarmed locals defending their own homeland.

Yeah, I remember seeing a documentation where an Montenegrian soldier said that he was very surprised when they attacked Dubrovnik. They were told that there is a big ustash Army ready to attack Montenegro and kill and rape their way throgh this country. The Montenegrian Soldiers were quite surprised when they only found some hundred lightly armed civilians that were defending the town.

They were even more surprised as they saw that the defence worked pretty well.

[spooky lynx 73]

Trust in media.Lol.

I mean, he can't be normal person since he is a dictator, but hey, don't be stupid and think that everything what media throws at us is true.

Within ruling of this dictator Libya had one of the highest incomes of its citizens among other arabian countries. And Libya is not clerical medieval state like Saudi Arabia.

I think they are just preparing us for the invasion of Libya.They must justify it somehow.Just like it was in Iraq.

That's it.

I bet the People there think otherwise.....

I bet you haven't met and spoken with chechens IRL. But I do. So not so many of them think that after independence they will become wealthy, happy and respected. They were independent from Russia in 1996-1999, and only they had is something like civil war between different gang leaders. No government, no work, no payments, no laws (oh, the only law - "you will live good if you belong to powerful clan and have AK").

[Big Mac 19]

I bet you haven't met and spoken with chechens IRL. But I do. So not so many of them think that after independence they will become wealthy, happy and respected. They were independent from Russia in 1996-1999, and only they had is something like civil war between different gang leaders. No government, no work, no payments, no laws (oh, the only law - "you will live good if you belong to powerful clan and have AK").

Are you Chechen? Have you lived in Chechnya? If not then you know about as much as my mutt does about how chechens feel. Run along little Stalin...

You was told that he's insane and believe it. Sad.

I will agree with you there. Just because you're a tin pot dictator doesn't make you insane.

We had war in Croatia and do you know how Serbian and Montenegrin (then Yugoslav) media worked?

Example: "30000 well armed Ustashi's are moving toward Montenegrin border..."

Real truth was aprox. 700 underarmed locals defending their own homeland.

I'm sure it worked both ways. Keep in mind your countrymen are no less guilty than the other guys. It's just the Serbs got painted as the "Bad Guys" in that war when in reality there were no good guys. I'm not defending any of them I'm just cutting through the bullshit screen you put up. Every former Yugoslav country during that time had a equal amount of blood on their hands, but the western media needed one single "bad guy" to focus on and the Serbs drew the short straw. Edited March 5, 2011 by Big Mac

[Zipper5 74]

I think a guy claiming al Qaeda is leading the protests, and that they're handing them all some kind of drug that makes them want to rebel, is maybe not insane but is almost there. This isn't something the media's told us without any proof, this is something he's been recorded to be telling us.

[Dropper 10]

Are you Chechen? Have you lived in Chechnya? If not then you know about as much as my mutt does about how chechens feel. Run along little Stalin...

I will agree with you there. Just because you're a tin pot dictator doesn't make you insane.

I'm sure it worked both ways. Keep in mind your countrymen are no less guilty than the other guys. It's just the Serbs got painted as the "Bad Guys" in that war when in reality there were no good guys. I'm not defending any of them I'm just cutting through thebullshit screen you put up. Every former Yugoslav country during that time had a equal amount of blood on their hands, but the western media needed one single "bad guy" to focus on and the Serbs drew the short straw.

You said it.

Im also not defending any side.Just giving an example of propaganda.There was similar things on the other side too.Friendly fire (mortar shelling) was displayed as enemy fire, or there was example of newspapers article in which were given names and addresses of Serb residents in one Croatian town.

However, I do agree with you, but history is written by the victors, and in this case Croatia is the victor.

[Baff1 0]

I think a guy claiming al Qaeda is leading the protests, and that they're handing them all some kind of drug that makes them want to rebel, is maybe not insane but is almost there. This isn't something the media's told us without any proof, this is something he's been recorded to be telling us.

That bloke has had a lot of trouble with Al Quaida historically. It's not just the Americans they don't like.

Bush claimed Al Quaida commited 9/11 (not to mention Saddam Hussein) and invaded Afghanistan and Iraq without any proof of it.

So he might be mad... but he is not unusually mad for a world leader.

I think Ghadaffi can probably handle this revolution as long as outside powers don't get involved. I think he can at least expect to keep hold of the west of Libya.

Tripoli his capital is clearly very friendly to him and consists of over half the population of Libya.

After 9/11 Ghadaffi who had common cause against Al Quaida came in from the cold and joined the war on terror. He most certainly wants to link his enemies and the enemies of the west together.

It is invasion he fears most. America, above any revolutionaries.

And with good reason in my opinion, we have already had advance troops on the ground building runways for our planes to operate from. We trained his rogue generals.

It won't take much more to tip the balance at this point.

---------- Post added at 04:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:03 PM ----------

Wow. I would never have thought we would get a Gaddafi zombie on the BIS forums.

He's a pariah mate.

He won't get a fair appraisal anywhere in the west.

Much as we don't like it, he is a very popular leader in his country. He hasn't lost yet.

We've been trying to angle him out for the last 40 years and he is still there.

Don't be thinking there isn't a media/propaganda war going on, there is in every conflict.

Edited March 5, 2011 by Baff1

[Zipper5 74]

That bloke has had a lot of trouble with Al Quaida historically. It's not just the Americans they don't like.

And since when has al Qaeda been an advocate of human rights? :p

[Baff1 0]

Everyone is an advocate of human rights when it works in their political favour.

I expect for example that Al Quaida has quite alot to say about the human rights of Palestinians etc.

Edited March 5, 2011 by Baff1

[Zipper5 74]

Advocate of better human rights for all, then.

[Baff1 0]

When it comes to our enemies, human rights have a habit of going out the window.

We treat our animals better.

Edited March 5, 2011 by Baff1

[concurssi 11]

He's a pariah mate.

He won't get a fair appraisal anywhere in the west.

Much as we don't like it, he is a very popular leader in his country. He hasn't lost yet.

We've been trying to angle him out for the last 40 years and he is still there.

Don't be thinking there isn't a media/propaganda war going on, there is in every conflict.

So you're saying he never gave orders to kill unarmed protesters?

Okay then, I guess it's all cool now, he's a good guy.

[maturin 12]

Georgia? I would really wish you not to live in Sukhum or Tshinval in 1992 and to meet some georgian Mhedrioni or army guys. That would end up very bad to you. So recent conflict has its roots back in 1991-1992 and Gamsakhurdia nationalist regime (one of his favorite phrases was "Georgia - only for georgians").

And if you had been in Kosovo, it would have gone badly for you too.

Tajikistan? Rahmonov is ruling there till now. He won the president's chair in civil war.

I seem to recall the Russian army helping him do it.

Chechnya? Heh, it's part of Russia. Nuff said.

And Abkhazia is part of Georgia and Kosovo is part of Serbia. Nuff said. Your political views are proving incredibly simplistic.

Do you notice how you mentioned a bunch of war the U.S. was in and shrugged them off as dishonest, aggressive and unjust? Fought for ulterior motives and justified by lies? Such a simple explanation.

But then I bring up some very similar wars Russia has been in, and oh no! Suddenly these were very complicated conflicts and I am too ignorant to make judgments! And Russia had only good intentions at heart and these were just wars! Do you really believe such a ridiculous double standard? Or will you engage your common sense and realize that the U.S. and Russia are strikingly similar in their willingness to use force to further their interests while justifying it by other means.

You was told that he's insane and believe it. Sad.:rolleyes:

You must have never heard of him before if you don't think he's loopy. At the least, he's downright delusional.

"All my people love me!" Comes to mind, when almost the entire country has fallen.

And he has claimed in his own words that he will fight to the death. There's no need for a media war (not denying that there is one) when he is so blatant. And his actions speak for themselves. You know what I'm talking about unless you're only listening to reports that come from Russians, and Russia Today moaning about sovereignty. But even those inane Fox News wannabes can't have ignored the atrocities.

All I've read in the posts of that blogger - there's no any opposition which is shown on YouTube and TV. All that protests, fierce firefights are 80% BS. The crowds of people not fight but fire in nowhere and search something to steal. He was laughing when some media like CNN or Al Jazeera told that another bunch of generals joined opposition, and at the same time this generals were shown at state libyan TV live reports with Quaddafi:D

This is the post (in russian), anyone, who wants, can translate it and read.

What a brilliant fellow. He must be such a reliable source, sitting in a safe hotel room watching government TV, while only three cities in the entire country are controlled by the regime, and all the other are full of reporters filming the bombs falling out of the sky.

I will agree with you there. Just because you're a tin pot dictator doesn't make you insane.

I can name any number of tin pot dictators who are in fact quite clever.

But for the love of god, people, haven't any of you so much a read a word about Qaddafi any time in the last five years? Up until now he has been actively seeking rapprochement with the West, cooperating with the U.N, trying to get sanctions lifted, even proposing solutions to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. No one in the West dreamed that there would be the slightest bit of instability.

And everyone already knew he was insane, and laughed their assess off whenever there were more than 50 words to write about him at a time. Where was your media war then?

Edited March 5, 2011 by maturin

[spooky lynx 73]

Are you Chechen? Have you lived in Chechnya? If not then you know about as much as my mutt does about how chechens feel. Run along little Stalin...

It will take about 10 hours for me to get in Grozny by car. I live not far from there. And I have some mates (chechens) of different ages living (or lived) there. Enough? I still remember weekly reports from the border of Stavropol region and Chechnya in 1996-1999, which counted number of gang raids, kidnappings, murders etc. commited by gangs of former "fighters for free Chechnya", who didn't want to work hard but wanted to get all they need fast.

And if you had been in Kosovo, it would have gone badly for you too.

In what period of time?

I seem to recall the Russian army helping him do it.

And Abkhazia is part of Georgia and Kosovo is part of Serbia. Nuff said. Your political views are proving incredibly simplistic.

Aren't you kidding? Forces of 201st division were enough only for some help to border guard troops and defence of tadjik-afghan border, and for defence of their own quarters against UTO and afghan mudjaheeden.

Formally Abhazia and Kosovo are not independent. But don't forget they have absolutely different story of getting their current status.

Do you notice how you mentioned a bunch of war the U.S. was in and shrugged them off as dishonest, aggressive and unjust? Fought for ulterior motives and justified by lies? Such a simple explanation.

But then I bring up some very similar wars Russia has been in, and oh no! Suddenly these were very complicated conflicts and I am too ignorant to make judgments! And Russia had only good intentions at heart and these were just wars! Do you really believe such a ridiculous double standard? Or will you engage your common sense and realize that the U.S. and Russia are strikingly similar in their willingness to use force to further their interests while justifying it by other means.

Similar?:confused: Name any conflict that was organised by Russia with massive media campaign against unfriendly country followed by attack and overthrow of its regime and then even assasination of its leader.

You know what I'm talking about unless you're only listening to reports that come from Russians, and Russia Today moaning about sovereignty. But even those inane Fox News wannabes can't have ignored the atrocities.

What a brilliant fellow. He must be such a reliable source, sitting in a safe hotel room watching government TV, while only three cities in the entire country are controlled by the regime, and all the other are full of reporters filming the bombs falling out of the sky.

Russia Today? I don't watch it. I would believe people who work there, not in cosy hotel but at different sites - railways, powerlines etc. They don't sit at one room only.

Haven't you tried to read his post?

[maturin 12]

It will take about 10 hours for me to get in Grozny by car. I live not far from there. And I have some mates (chechens) of different ages living (or lived) there. Enough? I still remember weekly reports from the border of Stavropol region and Chechnya in 1996-1999, which counted number of gang raids, kidnappings, murders etc. commited by gangs of former "fighters for free Chechnya", who didn't want to work hard but wanted to get all they need fast.

Doesn't sound too different from Chechnya under Kadryov's regime, except the bandits are working for the government.

Similar?:confused: Name any conflict that was organised by Russia with massive media campaign against unfriendly country followed by attack and overthrow of its regime and then even assasination of its leader.

It's never that neat. Barring Iraq, I wouldn't apply that description to recent American-led wars (the U.S. started the Kosovo war, lol what?), and I know you would go to all possible lengths to resist similar accusations against Russian actions. Any mention by me of Russian handiwork in the run-up to the Chechen and Georgian wars is going to turn this is into an off-topic five page debate that goes on all day.

And you really, really should watch Russia Today. Then you won't criticize our media quite so much.

It would also take me a really long time to get through that post, as my Russian is only three months old. But it looks like one man's experience of a very small part of Libya in the fog of war, and I don't see why his view should be worth more than that of several hundred reporters. Because barring isolated incidents, they do not outright lie. I suppose looters have somehow taken over the vast majority of the country? And looters have killed over a thousand people? Surely you will agree that once you are dropping bombs on your own cities, you have lost all right to rule.

Edited March 5, 2011 by maturin