Right click zooming, an alternative

[Michael Withstand 10]

Right now when holding down right mouse button the aim will be zoomed to simulate the eyes taking aim and concentrating on the optics or iron sight.

The problem with this is that the view also enlarges the target making it to seems closer than the target is actually is. This may feel like a minor thing but in effect it brings down the effect of range to all arms.

Suddenly 600m is not that far anymore with this implemented while in reality you'll be having tremendous aiming problem trying to get a person size target down an iron sight.

My suggestion is this that rather than zooming the entire screen right mouse button would only zoom on the weapon sight WITHOUT enlarging the target on the background.

If people dislike it give it an option to choose the current default behavior or the new one.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[ryguy 10]

Although I agree that you shouldn't have unrealistic binocular-eyes like the current system, your idea isn't logically possible... the image will still get bigger. And if you only make the sights larger, you'll screw up the mildot system.

[dmarkwick 261]

Well the zooming is there to simulate the very real psychological phenomenon that happens when you look at something. In fact military flight simulators recognise this phenomenon and actively enlarge distant aircraft models to simulate this, and compensate for the limits of resolution.

So, I'm OK with it :) It's not all good though, you do lose a lot of peripheral image so there's a balance there.

[Sith 0]

As has been explained on many previous occasions, the RMB zoom doesn't mimic "focus" but actually displays the world and objects therein at a size comparable to their proportions vs distance in you real-life field of view.

The unzoomed view in turn shows an unrealistically wide field of view in order for the player to retain some degree of spatial awareness. As a result, objects seem much smaller than they would in real life.

In a previous thread that discussed this topic, one of the forum members made a very nice visualisation of this effect. I wasn't able to find it, but imagine this:

• Take a box, width and and height resembling the size of your monitor, depth identical to the distance between your eyes and the screen.
  
• Take out the front and the rear ends of the box and attach the contraption to your head.
  
• Pick up a 1 meter-long M16A4.
  
• Now try to aim the weapon and walk around a bit.
  
• And note that I'm not accepting any legal liability for sustained injuries and/or property damage.
  

Doesn't work too well, does it? That's what a 1:1 realistic field of view in a 3D environment would look like. Games overcome this by taking a FOV angle resembling the one you'd normally have, and squeezing it inside that little gap at the end of the box. Naturally this makes the entire world far smaller than it should be. Realistic 300-500m fire fights would be reduced to single digit pixel hunting sessions, where in real life you'd still see far larger objects at such ranges. That's where the RMB zoom comes in, allowing you to see distant objects at the size they would have in real life.

[[aps]gnat 28]

Nice explaination thanks Sith

[dmarkwick 261]

As has been explained on many previous occasions, the RMB zoom doesn't mimic "focus" but actually displays the world and objects therein at a size comparable to their proportions vs distance in you real-life field of view.

The unzoomed view in turn shows an unrealistically wide field of view in order for the player to retain some degree of spatial awareness. As a result, objects seem much smaller than they would in real life.

In a previous thread that discussed this topic, one of the forum members made a very nice visualisation of this effect. I wasn't able to find it, but imagine this:

• Take a box, width and and height resembling the size of your monitor, depth identical to the distance between your eyes and the screen.
  
• Take out the front and the rear ends of the box and attach the contraption to your head.
  
• Pick up a 1 meter-long M16A4.
  
• Now try to aim the weapon and walk around a bit.
  
• And note that I'm not accepting any legal liability for sustained injuries and/or property damage.
  

Doesn't work too well, does it? That's what a 1:1 realistic field of view in a 3D environment would look like. Games overcome this by taking a FOV angle resembling the one you'd normally have, and squeezing it inside that little gap at the end of the box. Naturally this makes the entire world far smaller than it should be. Realistic 300-500m fire fights would be reduced to single digit pixel hunting sessions, where in real life you'd still see far larger objects at such ranges. That's where the RMB zoom comes in, allowing you to see distant objects at the size they would have in real life.

... And there we have it :) a definitive, logical reason, and I have a new item of knowledge to dredge up on the next zoom-thread ;)

[Michael Withstand 10]

Aaah so that's what RMB zooming is. Thank you Sith. :).

Nice so it's not a binocular vision after all.

Since I'm a hardcore gamer I'll be playing with RMB pressed all the time :p

[MissionMaximus 10]

Thanks Sith, I am glad you cleared that up. I thought that was true when in-game I would put the zoom-lock on another key and play like that everything looked like it would in real-life (or to me anyway) to where I was and the object I was looking at. When you stand face to face to a AI character without the zoom, it seemed he was alot further away but with RMB held he was at the correct distance.

[ryguy 10]

oooooh. Interesting. I always thought it was silly and unrealistic until now. haha

[maturin 12]

The unzoomed view in turn shows an unrealistically wide field of view in order for the player to retain some degree of spatial awareness. As a result, objects seem much smaller than they would in real life.

But isn't default FOV something like 90 degrees? The human eye has a much greater FOV than any monitor. That's why people use double or triple monitors.

[dmarkwick 261]

But isn't default FOV something like 90 degrees? The human eye has a much greater FOV than any monitor. That's why people use double or triple monitors.

People use double or triple monitors to have a wide FoV AND have a realistic zoom perhaps. On one monitor, it seems we need to be pragmatic.

[andersson 285]

I hope that we will have an affordable 3d-google solution soon.. With tech that can gives us good peripheral vision. When that happens I'm gonna go to BIS hq and make sure they have enough beer and pizza so they can work non-stop to make arma2 perfect for 3d :)

[Sith 0]

But isn't default FOV something like 90 degrees? The human eye has a much greater FOV than any monitor. That's why people use double or triple monitors.

Humans have a near 180 degree Field Of View. A typical FPS view generally offers a 70 (console) to 90 (PC) degree FOV of the digital 3D environment. This is however applied to a surface (monitor) that takes up less than 25% of your actual horizontal FOV ... when using it at a responsible distance ;)

Thus relatively speaking, the displayed digital FOV is increased by a factor 2 compared to what "real life" would look like on that screen (90*4 vs 180).

Trying to cram the full 180 degrees in there would not be pleasant :eek:

90 degree FOV

170 degree FOV

[Gunter Severloh 4063]

You explained it well Sith and I understand, but I still think the zooming ingame is unrealistic.

A game I have played next to OFP, Arma , Arma2 and now Arma2 CO is a game called Red Orchestra,

its a WW2 game more simulated then most.

For those familier, what i wanted to point out is that when you use a rifle as well as a semi auto, or even an assault gun,

when you go to iron sights the sights and gun are brought up to your face as you would do in real life.

Seen here is an example video of what Im talking about for those that have never seen RO before:

Now in the vid the sights look small but they are not the video makes it look small, ingame is much different

obviously but I think this is realistic versus a zooming.

The way i look at it in game and maybe most is when your ingame and running around you are basicaly holding a

gun and when you raise the gun up to look through the iron sights which it naturally does until you start the zooming,

I think the gun is to far away so instead it forces the use of the zoom button which is not natural.

I mean the gun is already up for irons sights but the problem is what good is it if you have to press another button to

zoom in to iron sights, it should be something like RO here where if you dont have the gun raised up its on your hip or down,

and then if you go to iron sights then the gun should be brought up to your face as if you did zoom but you dont

need to zoom as thats not realistic thats just an added focus.

Ideally the gun would be down, then raise to hip, then from hip to iron sights without zooming, there shouldn't be

zooming without or without the gun, your eyes dont do that in real life so why have it in the game.

As cool as it is its not realistic.

I was playing RO the other night and found myself pressing the button to zoom my ironsights out of habit

but apparently I didn't need to do that.

Options

Can we at least have the option where if you want to zoom then youll zoom to irons sights, and if not the gun would

be raised to your face. then we can have best of both words, option would allow a player to customize their game

based on what they like and or is realistic to them, in real life the gun is brought up to your eye,

what you see doesn't magically zoom.

I know this has already been discussed why the game uses zoom but lets do away with the monitor and the person

looking at the monitor ect,.and look at it into account that a person is ingame they control the character,

and that ingame which is supposed to mimic real life on its own simulated level.

[dmarkwick 261]

In ArmA2 the gun is never hipped, it's either always down safe or raised to the shoulder. And you are right that the reason for zoom has been discussed before, but did you ever see the official explanation for it? Turns out it's not zooming, it's the other way around. It's artificially wide angled, then it goes to 1:1 view.

[Gunter Severloh 4063]

Ya I know the gun is not hipped, and I read the explanation on post 4 but explanation still dont make it look realistic,

as far as Im concerned your still zooming, the whole screen still magnifies closer, you still have to press an "extra" button to see this.

I dont like the idea even if its been in OFP from the start that your view which is supposed to be you minus the fact

that your staring at a monitor, the point being your still ingame your still a character holding a gun, even having magical

floating indicators of your ammo count and what weapon your using on the screen isn't realistic but you have a choice there to turn it off.

With the zoom you also have a choice too to not have it but then your iron sights again are still to far from your face,

so you need to zoom into your ironsights just be realistic.

Having my screen magically focus simply is not realistic why is it not possibly to just bring the gun closer to the face

like it should rather then have a focused (not a zoom) zoom to get the screen closer.

You guys get what Im trying to explain?

Im just trying to point out that for example in real life you and the gun you bring up the iron sights thats it, its up to your

eye or close to it thats it, theres no change in view like you have a magnifying scope or binocs on your eyes, nor any

indicators in your view to tell you ammo count and what mode your gun is in, well unless its the future and you have a helmet

with heads up display but were talking about a lone infantryman here.

Im just saying that to simulate minus the reasoning for the monitor and the FOV ect,. that the view is what it is to simulate

the situation like real life Im not talking about the difference in perception that one sees in real life versus what one sees

while staring at a monitor, Im just saying why can you just have it 1 for a 1 this is what it does in real life guy raises his

gun brings it to his shoulder which makes the ironsights relevent distance to his eye.

Hence.... the fact that "he" the soldier brings the gun to his eye "not" the screen focuses giving the

impression of this happening, we should only see the gun move not the whole screen,

I move in the game thats realistic, the gun moves, thats realistic, having indicators on the screen not realistic, screen moving not realistic.

get what Im saying?

[dmarkwick 261]

Well I don't really, but I'm sure this sort of thing is well within the boundaries of an addon, why don't you make an example so we can see?

[Gunter Severloh 4063]

I dont get whats not to understand, Im basically saying that when your ingame think as if your holding a gun in real life.

You have no indicators in front of you telling you how much ammo, what mode your gun is in like semi or auto or whatever.

The when you look at a distance your eyes dont automatically focus I mean they do but im saying like what your viewing

doesn't get closer to you if you really look at it without bending forward or anything.

Then ingame its the same thing without the indicators and the "zoom" or focus or whatever you want to call it,

so really Im just saying when you bring your gun up to look behind the ironsights just your gun moves the screen

doesn't get closer like when you press the zooming button, just the gun moves closer to your character so that it makes the gun's sights (ironsights) viewable.

This is what happens in real life why cant we do the same, Im just asking to make the gun come closer then what it does

without the zoom button, understand?

currently ingame

The gun does come up from a resting position but to a position in front of you which is considered looking through ironsights

BUT the gun is to far away to really see the enemy, its like the guy is holding the gun up to his eye but instead of putting

the gun to his shoulder he is holding the gun away from the shoulder, forcing you to use the zooming button to make the gun come closer.

So we could have it where the gun is at a resting position then you bring the gun up, and instead of the whole screen plus

the gun becomes bigger as it making it look as if the gun is getting closer which its not the FOV or the players point of view

is just getting closer to the gun we could have it where the gun is actually shoulder and the sights are brought up.

This means the rest of the screen not the gun stays where it was it basically dont focus or zoom. understand?

Here is an example to some degree, where you see the ironsights, he brings the gun up but not his whole view

bends and gets closer, this vid is mostly scope:

another one:

see how the gun is just brought up and the ironsights are in view with np, the rest of the screen dont move,

just the gun is brought up close enough so that the iron sights are useable.

If you have RO you can see this for yourself.

Im only useing RO as an example as I cant think of any other ones, nor find good ones.

[wamingo 1]

Everything feels odd and strange if it's not like xyz games which you're more used to.

Try playing a flightsim without a zoom feature. Flightsims desperately needs zoom functions because in the real world you can see other planes/objects from miles and miles away - but even with the highest resolution monitor you can throw at it, you won't see jack squat without zoom.

Now technically flightsims can probably fake it a bit - enlarging objects in the distance - rendering some sort of lower detailed object. But I doubt a bit that would be feasible for arma, though I could be wrong.

Either way, that sort of "hack" can only go so far - afterall, why shouldn't you be able to see "everything else" as well as a real pilot?

If nothing else the zoom feature helps make arma more simish and more unique.

Edited February 15, 2011 by wamingo

[dmarkwick 261]

I dont get whats not to understand, Im basically saying that when your ingame think as if your holding a gun in real life.

You have no indicators in front of you telling you how much ammo, what mode your gun is in like semi or auto or whatever.

The when you look at a distance your eyes dont automatically focus I mean they do but im saying like what your viewing

doesn't get closer to you if you really look at it without bending forward or anything.

Then ingame its the same thing without the indicators and the "zoom" or focus or whatever you want to call it,

so really Im just saying when you bring your gun up to look behind the ironsights just your gun moves the screen

doesn't get closer like when you press the zooming button, just the gun moves closer to your character so that it makes the gun's sights (ironsights) viewable.

This is what happens in real life why cant we do the same, Im just asking to make the gun come closer then what it does

without the zoom button, understand?

currently ingame

The gun does come up from a resting position but to a position in front of you which is considered looking through ironsights

BUT the gun is to far away to really see the enemy, its like the guy is holding the gun up to his eye but instead of putting

the gun to his shoulder he is holding the gun away from the shoulder, forcing you to use the zooming button to make the gun come closer.

So we could have it where the gun is at a resting position then you bring the gun up, and instead of the whole screen plus

the gun becomes bigger as it making it look as if the gun is getting closer which its not the FOV or the players point of view

is just getting closer to the gun we could have it where the gun is actually shoulder and the sights are brought up.

This means the rest of the screen not the gun stays where it was it basically dont focus or zoom. understand?

Here is an example to some degree, where you see the ironsights, he brings the gun up but not his whole view

bends and gets closer, this vid is mostly scope:

another one:

see how the gun is just brought up and the ironsights are in view with np, the rest of the screen dont move,

just the gun is brought up close enough so that the iron sights are useable.

If you have RO you can see this for yourself.

Im only useing RO as an example as I cant think of any other ones, nor find good ones.

Hmm yeah I guess I understand the literal description of what you describe, I just can't fathom that it's more realistic to deny the player the 1:1 view. I guess what I don't understand is why it would be more realistic to artificially apply an unrealistic wide angle to the situation where you need the 1:1 view.

It helps me to think of the wide angle as the unrealistic part, and the 1:1 view as the realistic part. And the wide angle is there to give a pragmatic solution to a narrow view where you have no peripheral vision. I think, for the purposes of your desired realism, that it would be more appropriate to lose the wide angle and always be in the 1:1 zoom, which I'm not sure but I think you can do (at least temporarily) by double-tapping the zoom key.

In the final analysis, there may not be any difference from what I just described to what you're describing, and only the zoom factor is the difference. In which case, that would be a purely personal preference thing. I think a client-side addon would do this, but I also think you would be at a disadvantage to not have the 1:1 view.

Unless (rather likely I fear ;)) I'm still not understanding your idea.

[Gunter Severloh 4063]

Good points, but Im not really looking at the 1:1 view, Im saying leave that view and eliminate the zooming or make

it an option where the screen dont zoom.

All i want is that when you rsie your gun to ironsights that the gun actually moves to your shoulder and eye like in real life,

because currently in the game to bring the iron sights to look through them you have to press the zoom button.

I just want to see the gun adjusted without having to zoom into it.

In my mod A2WarMod I have an automatic zoom, so you dont need to press the zooming button when you go to iron sights it

does it automatically, see here, I point it out in my vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltDOsunyHIY

automatic zoom helps and takes away the extra control needed to get closer, it zooms automatically.

Now you guys might say well whats wrong with that?

The problem with this is that the screen gets closer everything gets bigger like your eyes all of a sudden

have an extra lens on them like a binocular that can zoom.

All I want is for the gun to come up to your face the same way but without the rest of the world or

game getting closer or bigger, or being magnified.

See what i'm saying?

[dmarkwick 261]

Hmm I guess I do see what you're saying, but I totally wouldn't like it that way. Just preferences I guess.

[Gunter Severloh 4063]

I like the game with the way I have ingae already with my mod its ok, im not really complaining but

I wish there was an option to have it the way to as I was describing before.

Options just bring one's game to being more personalized if you will, and again im sure this could be made into an addon,

but as a suggestion which this thread is for and not an addon request I would liek to suggest this optional feature to be

implemented, again as another way to view the game with your gun.

Options just open up more possibilites to a better game based on preference.

[Sith 0]

Good points, but Im not really looking at the 1:1 view, Im saying leave that view and eliminate the zooming or make it an option where the screen dont zoom.

You seem to be missing the point that was made earlier in the discussion though. The 1:1 (realistic) view DMarwick is talking about IS the zoomed view. Not the default view. Holding down RMB is not a matter of "everything gets bigger" than it should be, because "your eyes all of a sudden have an extra lens on them". NOT holding RMB (the standard view) is in fact making everything smaller than it should be, almost as if you're looking through binoculars the wrong way around :p

I've watched your WarMod video, but it seems to do basically what was present for some time in ArmA 1: add a default zoom to non-magnifying sights. This functionality was actually removed in a patch, because both developers and players found it very annoying to deal with a shifting view every time you wanted to align a target. You often lost your bearing on a nearby target, along with all sense of spatial awareness. The RMB function was retained as a player-activated feature, so they could "rescale" the game's proportions to its proper size once they needed it.

All I want is for the gun to come up to your face the same way but without the rest of the world or game getting closer or bigger, or being magnified.

How exactly would this be different from ArmA2's current default handling of non-magnifying sights? It retains the same FOV as the default view (lesson learned from ArmA 1) and leaves the RMB rescaling optional to the player.

Here's a simple comparison for reference:

Default field of view:

• High positional awareness allows precise movement
  
• Wide peripheral view allows high situational awareness
  
• Mimicks 50% of our real life field of view on ~25% of your eyes' FOV (monitor size)
  
• Objects in the game world are smaller than they are in real life
  
• Gameplay: The increased positional/situational awareness is great for CQB, but targets over 150 meters away are rendered too small to allow for realistic ranged combat
  

"Zoomed" field of view:

• Low positional awareness prevents precise movement
  
• Small peripheral view greatly limits situational awareness
  
• Mimicks ~25% of our real life field of view on ~25% of your eyes' FOV (monitor size)
  
• Objects in the game world are the same size as they are in real life (so it's not zoomed!)
  
• Gameplay: The decreased positional/situational awareness is bad for CQB, but targets over 150 meters away are rendered at the correct size, allowing for realistic ranged combat
  

Your choice in a game is simple. Either you get realistic combat ranges with a zoom function to overcome the fake zoomed-out view you need to walk around (otherwise targets would be too small to see), or you get a game without zoom function where combat ranges are reduced to allow you to see the targets. Imagine the outrage if the next patch log were to list "Reduced range on AI and weapons to rebalance game for a 100 meter engagement limit." :eek: ;)

See what i'm saying?

Not entirely, to be honest. I'm sorry if I'm completely misinterpreting your posts, but I find them very difficult to read. Take a bit more time to review your text before posting it, adding more punctuation and structure to channel and emphasize the information you're trying to convey. Right now it's just all over the place :(

[celery 8]

The thing with Red Orchestra sights is that most of them are brought closer to the player's eyes than would be natural. It would be like trying to attach your face to the rear of the gun's barrel, even if the stock would go through your shoulder. The gun is not part of the real game world at all, it's just an overlay present only for the player, and unless I'm mistaken, the gun itself is zoomed when it's brought to aim level. If the player model was shown as it looks like for other players, you'd see a small tiny hole through which you'd have to aim. Granted, some guns are held too far away in Arma 2.

Edited February 17, 2011 by Celery