How can he walk after that?

[walker 0]

you see, he has a steel plate the exact size of your bullet hidden somewhere on his body. and it just happens that you hit it every time and he is unharmed.

Hi Binkowski

Alternativley it never ever happened.

Kind Regards walker

[CameronMcDonald 146]

you see, he has a steel plate the exact size of your bullet hidden somewhere on his body. and it just happens that you hit it every time and he is unharmed.

Dont trust bink he is a reblMAN and they're-4 >90per-50-cent EVAL.

[jblackrupert 14]

The subject of soldiers on both sides taking several shots point blank to kill them even with the M107 has come up several times and each time it was blamed on FADE.

For me it happens very rarely but it's not just missions, it happens in the editor.

place a bunch of friendlies, order them to stop and start shooting them

testing different weapons. Blood appears, they scream blue on blue but it takes 7-8+ bullets to drop them no matter where you hit them.

Bugs in games aren't something that always effects everyone

it may take a certain combinations of hardware, drivers, installed software...etc

of course it could also be a result of corrupted files from Arma or windows crashing.

[wolfbite 8]

7-8+ Shots? With what? are you using a mod? Because to be honest I've got to say... even with a pistol I've never had someone survive more that 4 shots around the torso

[max power 21]

The subject of soldiers on both sides taking several shots point blank to kill them even with the M107 has come up several times and each time it was blamed on FADE.

For me it happens very rarely but it's not just missions, it happens in the editor.

place a bunch of friendlies, order them to stop and start shooting them

testing different weapons. Blood appears, they scream blue on blue but it takes 7-8+ bullets to drop them no matter where you hit them.

Bugs in games aren't something that always effects everyone

it may take a certain combinations of hardware, drivers, installed software...etc

of course it could also be a result of corrupted files from Arma or windows crashing.

Right... but if he reproduces it in a mission and he sends it to us and it's not happening for us, that means there is something wrong with his setup (whether it's his fault or not). That will guide how we proceed to point him towards help, whether it's a mod issue, bullets bouncing off of weapons, or something that's unsolvable on our end. If he doesn't even try to get it reproduced, nothing can happen. He says he has a bug we say 'cool story bro', and get on with our day. If he can't even reproduce it on his end, then if there is a problem it must be circumstantial.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Max Power

[johncage 30]

Hi Binkowski

Alternativley it never ever happened.

Kind Regards walker

it's a conspiracy. we're all in on it.

Right... but if he reproduces it in a mission and he sends it to us and it's not happening for us, that means there is something wrong with his setup (whether it's his fault or not). That will guide how we proceed to point him towards help, whether it's a mod issue, bullets bouncing off of weapons, or something that's unsolvable on our end. If he doesn't even try to get it reproduced, nothing can happen. He says he has a bug we say 'cool story bro', and get on with our day. If he can't even reproduce it on his end, then if there is a problem it must be circumstantial.

if you start firing on a soldier, and you see blood puffs, reactions(or if he's friendly, he yells blue on blue/check fire) you will know it's a game problem. there are no hardware issues that will cause that. no corrupted file that will do that, simply because that's not how software works, barring fade or something that actually is part of software behavior.

to put it bluntly, i think some of you are either in denial, or you have fanboy vision on preventing you from seeing flaws. not a personal attack, but that's just the way it is for any well respected company.

Edited January 7, 2011 by johncage

[AlienXXI 10]

What more proof does someone need when a few other people who posted in this thread said it happens to them? Just because it didn't happen to you, or you never noticed it, does not mean it isn't happening.

Why are people trying to turn this into some conspiracy theory?

[maturin 12]

Why are people trying to turn this into some conspiracy theory?

Probably because they are like me. They were confused by the complexities and oddities of blood spurts, ricochets, weapon hits, location damage and distance damage as new players, and now know how everything works, and that it is a simple system that does not fail.

So a few people claiming bugs without any attempt at proof can easily be put down to the same misinterpretations we made.

[falcon988 0]

7-8+ shots??? I have NEVER seen anyone survive that in ARMA or OFP and I too have played quite a bit. The absolute most bullets I've ever seen an AI actor survive is 4. 90% of the time they go down on the first hit, and the other 9.99% they go down on two. I have to question the veracity of such a claim as 7-8 because it seems so outlandish. Get FRAPS and make a video of it and detail what mods you've put on?

[AlienXXI 10]

Probably because they are like me. They were confused by the complexities and oddities of blood spurts, ricochets, weapon hits, location damage and distance damage as new players, and now know how everything works, and that it is a simple system that does not fail.

So a few people claiming bugs without any attempt at proof can easily be put down to the same misinterpretations we made.

I never claimed I knew how everything works. However, I know that this game is based on realism. I also know that if you get hit with a M24 or a 50 cal sniper rifle from 300 yards, you are going down hard regardless where you get hit. You're not going to stand there like nothing happened, or run around like you aren't injured.

Like I said, I have hit the AI in their chest with those two sniper rifles and they act like nothing hit them. I saw the blood come from his chest, and if you say that the blood really does not tell you where you hit the AI, then that in itself is a bug.

Just because I am still new here, does not mean I don't know how to spot a bug, or spot something that isn't quite right.

Edited January 7, 2011 by AlienXXI

[NeMeSiS 11]

Like I said, I have hit the AI in their chest with those two sniper rifles and they act like nothing hit them. I saw the blood come from his chest, and if you say that the blood really does not tell you where you hit the AI, then that in itself is a bug.

Just because I am still new here, does not mean I don't know how to spot a bug, or spot something that isn't quite right.

I believe you. However i cannot reproduce this in any way, and apparently neither can anyone else.

Are you using any mods?

[AlienXXI 10]

I believe you. However i cannot reproduce this in any way, and apparently neither can anyone else.

Are you using any mods?

If you read through this thread, you will see other people experienced the same thing. So I am not the only one who noticed this..

No, I don't run any mods. I want to run mods, but it is just too much work to play user created content. Basically, it is not user friendly at all.

[johncage 30]

argument-user's hardware is causing issues for the game: i will say the likelihood that some hardware component is causing the software to behave like this is very low and that just comes from experience. a joystick might cause your character to spin around without input, because joystick/gampad are related to movement and camera control. when you fire a round, which strikes an enemy and produces a bloodspray and reaction response, that is completely isolated from the capabilities of your mouse, cpu, memory, video card, etc, etc. it may be the video card which renders it and the mouse that was used to put the reticle on the target, but the trajectory of the bullet, the code that tells the game to produce a bloodspray, and the code that then tells the wounded soldier to respond appropriately are thing which neither your videocard nor mouse can influence.

argument-the burden of proof is on our end: not only has this been proven numerous times on youtube, there is an overwhelming(relate to other issues) number of people on the forum who have reported this issue, or similar ones. but the response is always the same. youtube videos are unreliable, etc, etc...and they become forgotten. that's why a lot of you have the mistaken notion that one one has ever attempted to reproduce this. in the end, any new form of evidence that arises is immediately dismissed or an excuse is given, or sometimes a justification of the error. this does more harm than good. as important issues become forgotten rather than pursued and squashed.

argument-blood splatter and other visual indicators of a hit are unreliable: there are other cues which prove that a hit occurred, such as friendly fire reports, or the fact that the enemy has acknowledged the hit and dropped to the ground, sometimes in a wounded state(in this case, the issue is that they were wounded rather than killed), which suggests unreliable damage system. it is possible that friendlies receive lower damage than enemies, but that does not explain why damage towards enemies is still fairly inconsistent.

the assumptions here is that these complaints are coming from noobs of games or computers. that can be further from the truth...or the implication that a number of us are trying to besmirch bis' good name. the ultimate motivation behind these topics, is the improvement of the game. and i notice topics that are worded carefully and politely do not engender such a confrontational response. my theory is that some of you are too emotionally invested in bis and have unecessarily taken up a big brother type relationship with it.

thanks.

[NeMeSiS 11]

argument-the burden of proof is on our end: not only has this been proven numerous times on youtube, there is an overwhelming(relate to other issues) number of people on the forum who have reported this issue, or similar ones. but the response is always the same. youtube videos are unreliable, etc, etc...and they become forgotten. that's why a lot of you have the mistaken notion that one one has ever attempted to reproduce this. in the end, any new form of evidence that arises is immediately dismissed or an excuse is given, or sometimes a justification of the error. this does more harm than good. as important issues become forgotten rather than pursued and squashed.

If someone is able to record this on video then he is able to post a demomission we can all play. Its also pretty hard for BI to fix something they cant reproduce, so yes, the proof of burden is on your end. ;)

Currently, for all we know he is hitting the enemies weapon(Which wont let any bullets through, which is more of a non-feature than a bug AFAIK), or it may be desync/lag related.

Edited January 7, 2011 by NeMeSiS

[Daniel 0]

blood splatter and other visual indicators of a hit are unreliable

Agreed. The blood splatter seems to appear regardless of the damage inflicted, it's not an indication of whether damage was insignificant or fatal. I guess more seasoned players know not to read too much into it. This could be improved.

topics that are worded carefully and politely do not engender such a confrontational response

Does that really surprise you? You can apply that to any aspect of life. Topics get much more constructive when people leave the mud slinging out of it. If you think people are acting like "fanbois", rise above it and form a sound argument.

[johncage 30]

bis will not and should not openly address such a huge issue...and to my knowledge, they never have. the goal of this topic is to get them to consider the issue, not to get them to say sorry or whatever. they can work in secret to fix the issue and that is perfectly fine. after all they are a business and should worry about their stock.

i know of the weapon hit issue btw, and it's a little inconsistent, but it doesn't apply here. maybe for another topic.

---------- Post added at 06:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:05 PM ----------

Agreed. The blood splatter seems to appear regardless of the damage inflicted, it's not an indication of whether damage was insignificant or fatal. I guess more seasoned players know not to read too much into it. This could be improved.

Does that really surprise you? You can apply that to any aspect of life. Topics get much more constructive when people leave the mud slinging out of it. If you think people are acting like "fanbois", rise above it and form a sound argument.

i'm not surprised, simply explaining the phenomenon behind the responses.

[AlienXXI 10]

I'm not in any way trying to ruin Bohemia Interactive name. I think this is a wonderful game. I'm simply posting my concerns from my personal experience. It is clear that I am not the only one who ran into this issue, so it is a real issue.

Instead of saying "I can't reproduce this, so therefor it does not exist" acknowledge that it is an issue so BI can get to the bottom of it and make a better game for everyone.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Instead of saying "I can't reproduce this, so therefor it does not exist" acknowledge that it is an issue so BI can get to the bottom of it and make a better game for everyone.

By finding a way to reproduce this you help BI a lot, saying 'i shot someone and he didnt die'* will likely mean that the issue will be ignored.

*Yes, its a hyperbole.

[Alex72 1]

AlienXXI:

Just because I am still new here, does not mean I don't know how to spot a bug

It's very appreciated if you can spot and want to report a bug. Click my signature image and read the rules. After that go ahead and create a ticket (bug report). That site is setup for us all to report bugs, and BIS checks it frequently.

But please read the rules carefully or the ticket will most likely be discarded. ;)

[walker 0]

Hi all

As I keep saying you need to provide a reproducable experment otherwise nobody can believe what you are saying.

Here are instructions to create a test mission to prove your hypothosis:

1) With ArmA II set to a vanila mode eg only BIS expansions and patches.

2) Start up the editor.

3) On the airfield of one of the islands such as Utes.

4) At one end of the airfield. Insert your self as a soldier for one side (eg BLUEFOR)

5) Place Ammo boxes with the weapons you wish to test next to you.

6) At an apropriate distance; say 500m for M24, down toward the oposite side of the runway, place a soldier of the same side as you as the target.

There is thread Arma 2 Weapon Ranging and Correction Tables that may help you

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=80754

Also remember that since OA some weapons in ArmA II have zeroing capabilities.

7) Save the mission!

8) Preview the mission to test your Hypothosis that:

I can shoot soldiers n times before they die

9) Record what the number n is in table for each test. Do say 10 tests though more is obviously a statisticaly more significant data set.

10) Copy the mission from your editable missions folder, ZIP it up and stick it on location that others can download it from and link its URL in a post in this thread.

11) You may wish to alter the experiment to show us what you mean.

12) You may if you want FRAPs what you do if you want explain your experiment but it is not needed; steps 1 to 10 are all that are required.

At a push you can use this training mission.

http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=863

but it is no substitute for a simple editable experimental mission.

I have never been able to reproduce what you say in ArmA II

For the record I done missions like this hundreds of times in ArmA II and its predessors in order to improve my sniping, though I would tend to use a static target object or preferably OPFOR soldier(s) as targets for more pressure. In all those hundreds of times I have never experienced having to hit a target more than once 99% of the time, I experineced a missed or wounding shot occasionaly and the second or third very occasionaly was the kill shot, that is down to my lack of skill or being under pressure from returned fire from using multiple OPFOR.

Unless you can furnish proof I can not believe you

I am sorry that you are upset that no one believes you but its just all of the rest of us have never ever seen this.

Kind Regards walker

Edited January 8, 2011 by walker

[max power 21]

argument-user's hardware is causing issues for the game: i will say the likelihood that some hardware component is causing the software to behave like this is very low and that just comes from experience. a joystick might cause your character to spin around without input, because joystick/gampad are related to movement and camera control. when you fire a round, which strikes an enemy and produces a bloodspray and reaction response, that is completely isolated from the capabilities of your mouse, cpu, memory, video card, etc, etc. it may be the video card which renders it and the mouse that was used to put the reticle on the target, but the trajectory of the bullet, the code that tells the game to produce a bloodspray, and the code that then tells the wounded soldier to respond appropriately are thing which neither your videocard nor mouse can influence.

The game is very sensitive to frame rate. If the frame rate is too low, many aspects of the game are inconsistent and unpredictable, including AI and simulations. User hardware, background programs, and program settings can all affect this.

argument-the burden of proof is on our end: not only has this been proven numerous times on youtube, there is an overwhelming(relate to other issues) number of people on the forum who have reported this issue, or similar ones. but the response is always the same. youtube videos are unreliable, etc, etc...and they become forgotten. that's why a lot of you have the mistaken notion that one one has ever attempted to reproduce this. in the end, any new form of evidence that arises is immediately dismissed or an excuse is given, or sometimes a justification of the error. this does more harm than good. as important issues become forgotten rather than pursued and squashed.

No one is claiming that no one has attempted to reproduce this. We in the community have been through claims like this thousands of times, including claims that the AI can sense you through solid objects, etc. We are saying that we do not have this problem, so create a mission in 5 minutes that highlights your problem so we can understand you, and so you can know whether or not other people can reproduce it at will. If we can't reproduce it at will, then there is something else going on.

argument-blood splatter and other visual indicators of a hit are unreliable: there are other cues which prove that a hit occurred, such as friendly fire reports, or the fact that the enemy has acknowledged the hit and dropped to the ground, sometimes in a wounded state(in this case, the issue is that they were wounded rather than killed), which suggests unreliable damage system. it is possible that friendlies receive lower damage than enemies, but that does not explain why damage towards enemies is still fairly inconsistent.

the assumptions here is that these complaints are coming from noobs of games or computers. that can be further from the truth...or the implication that a number of us are trying to besmirch bis' good name. the ultimate motivation behind these topics, is the improvement of the game. and i notice topics that are worded carefully and politely do not engender such a confrontational response. my theory is that some of you are too emotionally invested in bis and have unecessarily taken up a big brother type relationship with it.

thanks.

I think you're way off base here. I think you're thinking this is adversarial. In fact, the resistance you're seeing is scepticism based on reading thousands of other reports like this one ranging a broad spectrum of topics. Some are reproducible, some are not. If I believed everything the community conjured up out of nowhere, I would be a very confused person.

When you go to the CIT tracker, you will notice that there is a couple of fields in there regarding reproducibility. Filling in 'yes' or 'no' would be better than 'didn't try'. The really good reports have missions attached so anyone can download them and reproduce it for you, giving the people who hunt these bugs down more and more information about the users it affects.

As for the arguments about fanboism or personal attacks: LOL.

[maturin 12]

And also, 7.62 to the groin area and shoulders are not necessarily fatal either.

Just because you hit someplace besides the limbs doesn't mean the fellow is going to die.

I don't disbelieve the complaints, it's just that after 500 hours of this game on every version and two computers, I feel like 95% of the reports are probably caused by user error and misinterpretation of what's going on in-game. The remaining 5% you have faulty blood spray, script lag, framerate issues, mod conflicts and server de-sync.

The script lag is a big one I haven't seen mentioned. Certain betas have clearly demonstrated that you can cheat death for quite a while with the right errors.

[76 0]

Yes I wish Bohemia would slow down and fix things first before bringing out new expansions and addons and stuff.

+ 1

A fuckin men... you listening BI.

This could be applied to the entire planet

johncage,

As I'm sure you're aware, the essence of science is reproducibility. If the m109 isn't not powerful enough on your computer, its' not powerful enough on any computer. So, if you create a mission recreating the circumstances under which the shots won't kill, anyone should be able to play it and get what you're talking about. So no, a video showing the game glitching on your buggy computer will not help us.

For the record, an m109 hit from any range for me is a 1 shot kill hitting any body part.

Not true at all.... its how many commands your CPU can handle..... Same mission on two different PCs (one powerful, one not so powerful) will wield 2 very different outcomes.

Slow PCs always have retarded AI, there just isn't enough resourses to issue many complex commands. And I would assume (assume nothing) its the same hit damage, vehicle collisions (bad clipping) etc etc etc.

they are a business and should worry about their stock.

Oh my.... screw share holders... they have zero social regard "I want divot ends, wah wah wah "sack the workforce, I want my money... wah"

Edited January 7, 2011 by 76
To add shit... duh

[max power 21]

Not true at all.... its how many commands your CPU can handle..... Same mission on two different PCs (one powerful, one not so powerful) will wield 2 very different outcomes.

Slow PCs always have retarded AI, there just isn't enough resourses to issue many complex commands. And I would assume (assume nothing) its the same hit damage, vehicle collisions (bad clipping) etc etc etc.

That is on of the things I was talking about when I was talking about factors relating to his set up rather than the program. If he's playing at too low a frame rate, it wouldn't make much sense to call it a bug, would it? BIS have said on the forum a number of times that low frame rates in this game cause weird crap to happen.