Mythbusters ArmA edition.

[Bouben 3]

If you people do not understand thing happening in the video, then this discussion is pointless already.

I can not imagine example of this problem to be more clear and simple.

Lets quit this.

[whisper 0]

You're being overly defensive, I'm just, yes, trying to understand, that is all. And like I wrote, I got it. I just asked for more in depth test.

Can't be done, awwwkayy, I'll test it myself once not at work anymore.

No need to act like I'm dumb, tyvm

[Bouben 3]

You're being overly defensive, I'm just, yes, trying to understand, that is all. And like I wrote, I got it. I just asked for more in depth test.

Can't be done, awwwkayy, I'll test it myself once not at work anymore.

No need to act like I'm dumb, tyvm

I've never said that you are dumb. I have nothing against you. Stay cool. Nothing happened.

Cheers.

[NeMeSiS 11]

awww kaayyy

....

You turned up at the party just as i was getting fed up with it, nothing personal, but i just cant be bothered anymore. ;)

[walker 0]

Hi Bouben

Try the updated test mission I made. Because the amount of flat uninterupted ground is larger it allows you to test both the AI spot enemy entity and unknown entity distances.

By varying the distances it clearly shows the AI is neither following you with a virtual radar beacon attached to you nor using X-Ray vision to see you through grass, nor using radar vision to spot you if you teleport.

The AI is just spotting objects in it enemy "optical" identification friend or foe (IFF) range and sending out search parties to confirm the identity of unknowns at beyond its "optical" IFF range.

Kind Regards walker.

[Bouben 3]

Hi Bouben

Try the updated test mission I made. Because the amount of flat uninterupted ground is larger it allows you to test both the AI spot enemy entity and unknown entity distances.

By varying the distances it clearly shows the AI is neither following you with a virtual radar beacon attached to you nor using X-Ray vision to see you through grass, nor using radar vision to spot you if you teleport.

The AI is just spotting objects in it enemy "optical" identification friend or foe (IFF) range and sending out search parties to confirm the identity of unknowns at beyond its "optical" IFF range.

Kind Regards walker.

There is nothing to test. Nemesises video is what I've tested numerous times in my scenarios. And situation in Nemesises video is the situation I am intersted in. If Nemesises video isn't enough for you, then nevermind.

I don't want to discuss it anymore. I am tired.

From now, I will be just quoting Nemesises video as a proof and if anyone don't like it, then just forget it.

Cheers.

EDIT:

Oh my god.

I've just tested that mission.

YOU ARE TOO FAR FROM THE ENEMY AND EVEN BEHIND HILL AND YOU WILL TELEPORT BEHIND TERRAIN SURFACE - BEHIND HILL MOREOVER LIKE 300 METERS AWAY!

Of course they will not see you! Because there is a LOD that will block their vision - the terrain surface!

You must test it on completely FLAT terrain because we are testing GRASS not terrain!

If this is a source of your confusion, than I absolutely understand it.

When I moved testing to some flat area with a high grass around I was AGAIN SEEN THROUGH GRASS BY THEIR MAGICAL X RAY VISION. There you go, the proof. Again.

!!!For testing this properly following conditions must be accomplished!!!:

- Firstly, realize that we wanna test only grass and its concealment capabilities so we need:

1) completely flat terrain

2) high, dense grass so that you can't see anything

3) terrain without rocks, bushes, houses, trees and any other objects with LOD

4) starting position like 100 meters behind enemy and teleport position also like 100 meters in mirrored direction from the starting area - if you teleport yourself like 300 meters away AI will be also affected by distance and we don't want this

5) enemy must be ONLY ONE SINGLE UNIT so that we can prevent enemy watching more than one direction

6) you must of course test it in the vanilla version of Arma2

If you test it in this conditions you will fail and enemy will shoot you like in nemesises video and it will prove that grass is not taken in account if your knowsAbout is above 0

Edited July 27, 2010 by Bouben

[Guest]

lol.

Bouben, I have accepted the fact you have an issue, now please accept the fact that I don't.

Peace.

[walker 0]

Hi Bouben

There are no intervening hills in the area the latest test mission is using.

The AI has clear LOS to both the original position and the teleport position.

I updated and moved it across the other side of the island to a flatter area for precisely that reason.

Just check this is the mission you are using.

http://www.downloads.thechainofcommand.net/zips/AI_See_You_in_Grass_Mythbuster.Chernarus.zip

By altering the position of the teleport location closer and further away from the AI in both the fired upon (stimulated) and the control or not fired upon (unstimulated) AI modes you will see that what we are dealing with is AI spotting enemy and AI spotting unknown then sending out a search team. The default teleport location sets you just beyond the AI Unknown spotting range and shows that they have no tracking beacon on you, just as Nemises last video test with the Teleport behind the barn did.

Kind Regards walker

Edited July 27, 2010 by walker

[Takko 10]

There is a reason is doesn't work.

First, thanks for this mission.

Before you teleport, you have to wait unti the AI knows of your position.

So:

Shoot.

Wait until AI knowsabout is about 0.7m from your position.

And then and only after that press the teleport button.

You'll see that the AI won't shoot you through the grass anymore.

Its because if you shoot and teleport before their knowsabout goes up, they get your new location submitted.

Only if you wait until they know your firing location, then you can spawn.

The engine's knowsabout gets updated every 1-2 seconds. After the 1-2 seconds the knowsabout and location gets submitted to the ai.

If you shoot and spawn before the 1-3 seconds, the knowsabout will still be updated but now with your new location,

since the Engine does not safe the coordinates of the old one to be less ressource demanding.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Takko

[Bouben 3]

Hi Bouben

There are no intervening hills in the area the latest test mission is using.

The AI has clear LOS to both the original position and the teleport position.

I updated and moved it across the other side of the island to a flatter area for precisely that reason.

Just check this is the mission you are using.

http://www.downloads.thechainofcommand.net/zips/AI_See_You_in_Grass_Mythbuster.Chernarus.zip

Kind Regards walker

Allright, I've tested this updated mission. The terrain is not flat. There is a small wave and teleport location is too far and also behind a small wave. AI is not so precise so the small wave is enough to hide you.

Please, find a really flat terrain like around an airport and set your postition and teleport position up to 100 meters away. Only that will make a transparent test.

And what are your skill settings for AI and are you testing a vanilla game?

Thanks

---------- Post added at 07:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:59 PM ----------

There is a reason is doesn't work.

First, thanks for this mission.

Before you teleport, you have to wait unti the AI knows of your position.

So:

Shoot.

Wait until AI knowsabout is about 0.7m from your position.

And then and only after that press the teleport button.

You'll see that the AI won't shoot you through the grass anymore.

Its because if you shoot and teleport before their knowsabout goes up, they get your new location submitted.

Only if you wait until they know your firing location, then you can spawn.

The engine's knowsabout gets updated every 1-2 seconds. After the 1-2 seconds the knowsabout and location gets submitted to the ai.

If you shoot and spawn before the 1-3 seconds, the knowsabout will still be updated but now with your new location,

since the Engine does not safe the coordinates of the old one to be less ressource demanding.

Can't confirm. I've always waited for knowsAbout to go up and teleported only after that and enemy would instantly turn at my new teleport position and shoot me. I've even waited for enemy to start shooting at me and only then teleported with the same result - death and xray vision.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Bouben

[madrussian 347]

Well, to be honest i assumed that MAP_EU added some bushes that were bugged or something, but looking at the bushes that were a problem im pretty sure that these dont have a viewlod at all.

Good call. I haven't ruled out this possibility. :)

I would really like to be able to create some default BIS vegetation on the fly (to run more exhaustive tests, and avoid 3rd party mods, etc), but after spending about an hour last night, I couldn't get it figured out.

Anyone able to do this?

Sure of that? Isn't there a LoD specifically for AI view blocking?

Yes, that is what I mean, the LoD specifically for AI view blocking. :)

That said, if you can't find any place in Cherna or Taki that will show the issue... then there's no issue, is there? :) (at least on Cherna or Taki)

I'm sure I can create a scenario where it seems like AI can see through vegetation in Cherna or Taki. But it would carry some ambiguity... if I create a sea of visually impenetrable bushes then it's a better test, by my reckoning anyhow. That's all.

Hi all

To MadRussian: As I said this thread is about ArmA Myths not ArmA and who knows what Mod myths.

I have proved that AI sight is blocked by bushes with the mission that is now in the MYTH: The AI sees through bushes! spoiler of my very first post in this thread. Here is the link again:

http://www.downloads.thechainofcommand.net/zips/X_Ray_AI_Mythbusted.zip

If you can provide a mission in Vanilla ArmA like it then we can take the Debate further.

I will now use the Logical argument of Reducto Absurdiem (Reduction to the Absurd) to show that the premise that the "The AI sees through bushes!" myth can be tested with the Map Eu MOD is incorrect.

If what you say about the MOD being the same as Vanilla ArmA were true, then it too would be able to produce the same results as my example mission, you have stated it cannot. If it cannot produce the same effects as Vanilla ArmA then "Ipso Facto" the MOD works diferent to vanilla ArmA in this aspect of blocking AI views, this is the inescapable conclusion of your own experiment MadRussian.

If on the other hand you can make the Map EU MOD produce the same results as my test mission in vanilla ArmA you have proved that the "The AI sees through bushes!" is Mythbusted!

It there for follows that to argue that the statement "The AI sees through bushes!" can be tested through the MAP EU MOD is there for Absurd. QED.

Kind Regards walker

With all due respect, that last argument of yours may have begun descending into the semi-absurd. :eek: (Please though, no offense intended. Btw, I think this is a great thread you've created.)

If you will persist in refusing to try out my test mission, (which is the only way I know currently to test this in intentional unambiguous fashion), and decline to answer friendly responses to your PMs, please allow me to continue with some less-scientific anecdotal evidence:

Many of us, day in and day out, continue to experience issues related to AI-View-Blocking in areas of dense vegetation. Just check out the X-Ray AI thread, and I'm convinced what you'll see is just the tip of the iceberg. I should again emphasize that by-and-large, the AI-View-Blocking in ArmA 2 is pretty good. Vegetation brings out the issue, and jungle maps like Razoreniya, while technically and visually stunning, and rendered all but unplayable as a result. Who among us has NO ISSUES with ai-view-blocking in the jungles?!?

Because I've been waiting for jungle maps for so long and wasn't ready to throw in the towel just yet, I started experimenting. My first instinct was to sprinkle extra default ArmA2 vegetation (via MAP_EU) in the mission areas to try and make these jungle maps more playable. But that seemed to have absolutely no effect on AI-View-Blocking.

The next logical step was to create my test mission, in which the AI can see you directly through a visually impenetrable vegetation barrier. To me this is the smoking gun! (And if I can eventually reproduce this test by creating default BIS vegetation on-the-fly then all the better.)

In any event, the reason I have been so personally invested and persistent regarding this AI-View-Blocking issue is that I'd simply like to be able to enjoy forest and jungle combat on the default ArmA2 terrains, and on the amazing jungle terrains this wonderful community of ours has created.

Anyway Walker, do whatever you want and "bust" whatever myths you want. It is, after all, your thread. However:

You can't change the fact that many many players continue to have AI-View-Blocking issues (real or otherwise) in the forests and jungles of ArmA2. :D

[walker 0]

Hi Bouben

Once again I must have edited my post just before you posted.

I dispute that there is any terrain feature between the default teleport location and the AI. I have tested that by firing on the AI from the teleport spot the AI were able to fire on me straight away and get hits, that would not be possible without direct LOS. And in any case the mission is in an editable form, so that people may test it for them selves; you only need to move the teleport location to get a an LOS that suits you.

The default teleport location sets you just beyond the AI Unknown spotting range and shows that they have no tracking beacon on you, just as Nemises last video test with the Teleport behind the barn did. If you move the Teleport 10 to 20m closer you will see the enemy treats you as uknown and sends a team to investigate you.

By altering the position of the teleport location closer and further away from the AI in both the fired upon (stimulated) and the control or not fired upon (unstimulated) AI modes you will see that what we are dealing with is AI spotting enemy and AI spotting unknown then sending out a search team.

Kind Regards walker

[Bouben 3]

Hi Bouben

Once again I must have edited my post just before you posted.

I dispute that there is any terrain feature between the default teleport location and the AI. I have tested that by firing on the AI from the teleport spot the AI were able to fire on me straight away and get hits, that would not be possible without direct LOS. And in any case the mission is in an editable form, so that people may test it for them selves; you only need to move the teleport location to get a an LOS that suits you.

The default teleport location sets you just beyond the AI Unknown spotting range and shows that they have no tracking beacon on you, just as Nemises last video test with the Teleport behind the barn did. If you move the Teleport 10 to 20m closer you will see the enemy treats you as uknown and sends a team to investigate you.

By altering the position of the teleport location closer and further away from the AI in both the fired upon (stimulated) and the control or not fired upon (unstimulated) AI modes you will see that what we are dealing with is AI spotting enemy and AI spotting unknown then sending out a search team.

Kind Regards walker

But that's it. I just moved it in my prefered area and tested it and they've again magically seen me through grass.

And you did not answer me on some questions in my last post. Thank you to do so.

[walker 0]

Hi Bouben

But that's it. I just moved it in my prefered area and tested it and they've again magically seen me through grass.

Once again.

...The default teleport location sets you just beyond the AI Unknown spotting range and shows that they have no tracking beacon on you, just as Nemises last video test with the Teleport behind the barn did. If you move the Teleport 10 to 20m closer you will see the enemy treats you as unknown and sends a team to investigate you....

And you did not answer me on some questions in my last post. Thank you to do so.

As you can see I was answering each of your points:

Allright, I've tested this updated mission. The terrain is not flat. There is a small wave and teleport location is too far and also behind a small wave. AI is not so precise so the small wave is enough to hide you.

...I dispute that there is any terrain feature between the default teleport location and the AI. I have tested that by firing on the AI from the teleport spot the AI were able to fire on me straight away and get hits, that would not be possible without direct LOS...

Please, find a really flat terrain like around an airport and set your postition and teleport position up to 100 meters away. Only that will make a transparent test.

...And in any case the mission is in an editable form, so that people may test it for them selves; you only need to move the teleport location to get a an LOS that suits you...

And what are your skill settings for AI and are you testing a vanilla game?

I am only using vanilla for all these tests, as I made clear in several posts particularly those in reply to MadRussian.

I normally play at veteran or above.

For these test I have varied AI skill up to maximum for a sequence on each test.

Kind Regards walker

Edited July 27, 2010 by walker

[Big Dawg KS 6]

It is about grass NOT blocking AI's LOS.

You calling Maruk a liar then? It may not have the same effect on AI as it does a human being, but it has an effect.

Anyway, I see no issue with the grass. It's not really tall enough to matter. You really can't have high expectations for things like that. Grass is always an issue for AI in any game. Would you prefer BIS just remove grass from their terrain? IMO, that's really the only way to completely solve all the issues.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Big Dawg KS

[Deadfast 43]

YOUTUBE]RLVW0qSgXPw[/YOUTUBE

As you all couldnt reproduce it (Except for Bouben and the people on Devheaven) i decided to make it a video instead. 720p is adviced if you want to read the globalchat.

Could you try to set their behavior to aware and then try to teleport to that position?

It seems to me they won't scan the area properly until their awareness is raised.

[maturin 12]

Well, do you finally understand my point? This situation is absolutely impossible in the game because you would not be able to confuse enemy in such a way because once contact is started, enemy will literally ignore grass at all and see every change in your direction even if you are crawling 500m away. So he will not be confused and will not have to decide in which direction put his blind fire. He will simply pinpoint (!) you, because now he see through grass untill knowsAbout reaches 0. That's it.

That's not always true in my experience. Granted, I use ACE and Zeus, but we're talking about the basic engine limitations of grass here.

I downloaded a mission with a script that shows where the enemy thinks you are using white and red smoke. When he knows your exact location, your character emits white and red smoke. When he knows your general location, an area of the map is boxed in either by a large directional wedge or a small circle.

I lie down on a road 400m from the enemy and open fire. We are both on converging slopes so line of sight isn't a factor. He hears the shots, turns towards me and picks a few dozen square meters where I probably am. (Then he shoots at that area even though he hasn't acquired me yet, thus making many players think that he has supernatural spotting abilities.) If I keep firing, he will spot me in the grass after some initial difficulty. If I then cease firing, a circle of red smoke will grow around me, indicating that he has actually lost sight of me. I can them crawl away, and the circle will widen a little as he searches for me. I can crawl out of the circle (even in short Utes grass with no ghillie) as he stares at the spot I once inhabited, sometimes shooting at it. If I reposition myself, I have plenty of time to get a clear shot.

Of course, if I am facing an entire enemy unit, usually only several men are ordered to shoot at me. The others are watching other directions and waiting for sneaky little bastards to change position. In their state of heightened alertness, they will see me crawling around and kill me.

I do agree, however, that grass cannot block line of sight, and that after the enemy has detected you, it pretty much vanishes from the equation. But only in short range is this a definite occurrence, it appears. I don't have a link to the mission I'm talking about, but I suppose I could post the script used.

[Fox '09 14]

do smoke grenades fail to work underwater?

myth busted

[maturin 12]

What WOULD happen with an underwater smoke grenade? Would the smoke dissolve? Bubble to the surface as gas?

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

^ Ask the real mythbusters

[Takko 10]

It would not work. Smoke needs heat. Also smoke in a smoke grenade needs heat by creating it.

In water the chemical reaction does not heat it up anymore (like putting a fire out),

ergo: no smoke.

[soul_assassin 1745]

fireworks burn underwater...

actually to burn something need not heat but fuel and oxygen. Water has oxygen, hence h2O. Secondly some chem reaction actually produce oxygen to sustain their own burn. My guess is that if the smoke grenade is ignited in air and then suspended in water it will keep on burning. Just the smoke will not look like smoke anymore :p

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Uhm, heat is part of the fire triangle. Now that's for fire. A chemical reaction might be based on something else, or produce and sustain its own heat source. No, I don't know much about HC or WP smoke systems, but... :)

[sparks50 0]

(from the CM thread, underlined)

I hope this actually becomes a simulator that can compete somewhat with ArmA II. I'm sick and tired of the shoddy movement, tanks that die from machine guns, and bad UI.

Does this still hold true? I think I remember this being fixed in one of the A2 betapatches, but since Ive never run into this issue its hard to tell if its really fixed.

[Zipper5 74]

It doesn't happen anymore I believe, thanks to the new semi-simulation of penetration.