Mythbusters ArmA edition.

[soul_assassin 1750]

Here's a myth for you to crack:

All OPFor vehicles and weapons are lower quality in terms of armor and ammo, when compared to their respective BLUFor equivalents.

This is often heard on russian forums, and I would love to see this tested. I realise that perhaps it would be hard to test every vehicle, but a majority should defenately be tested.

[ryguy 10]

Cool idea! I could totally test this out in a video soon.

[NeMeSiS 11]

I wasn't aware that there even were bush entries in vanilla (i.e didn't think there were), and thus I was using map_eu to get at them. I'll try and find the equivalent of that map_eu bush and see if it's in there. It may be that map_eu is the only way to place that particular bush...

In the mean time, certainly map_eu does nothing beyond making assets available to the editor. Does anyone believe that map_eu does anything at all beyond this purpose?!?

btw- I understand why some would like to believe that AI-view blocking in ArmA 2 is perfect. After all, who in their right mind would want problems in the game? But I think it's important to note that there are a great number of us who have issues with AI seeing through vegetation. Turning a blind eye can't be the answer.

@NeMeSiS- What happens when you run my specific test mission (with map_eu)? Are you shocked by the result? Just curious. :)

Like said before, i do not have map_eu so i tested with a number of random objects i do have, as well as a number of different bushes which were already placed on the map. In your old topic i made another demo mission to show this, it also had an easy way to reveal the knowsabout of the enemy soldier behind the bush, which stayed at 0 with every object i tried.

(Otherwise one of the objects would have been bugged, and we could high-five eachother that we found an annoying bug and it could have been fixed by now. :p )

Im not saying you are lying or something, but i do not know which objects map_eu enables and maybe you are using objects which you are not supposed to use and therefore it wouldnt really be relevant if those bushed dont work properly.

Edited July 25, 2010 by NeMeSiS

[Bouben 3]

Oh god, again...

Please, firstly do some reasearch how is AI doing what they are doing. Grass layer does NOT affect AI in any way. It is for multiplayer PvP purposes only. Grass texture itself is just an eyecandy and does NOT obscure AI's line of sight. And also consider to read up what "knowsAbout" in a game code means. That will explain you a lot and you will definitely grow sober from this naive conviction that AI is "real" or whatever fans of this game so eagerly say while gammon about "hardcore simulation" and "go play MW2 if you can't stand this real combat experience"...

Thank you.

I find the grass layer to work perfectly to be honest. Don't forget, it's just grass, it doesn't make you invisible, which is what everyone seems to expect?

With AI on max difficulty I can sit metres away from them, prone in a ghillie suit. The same can not be done if you are not camouflaged. Works fine for me!

I don't think I would every try "hiding" in the grass in real life, unless knew exactly waht I was doing and what the situation was. Very easy way to die...

And obviously, if the AI has already seen you, of course they are going to shoot you if you just go prone and expect to become invisible! :p

[walker 0]

Hi all

Here is a simple example mission that busts the AI can see through bushes Myth:

http://www.downloads.thechainofcommand.net/zips/X_Ray_AI_Mythbusted.zip

Contents:

An editable user mission: X_Ray_AI_Mythbusted.utes

A Readme.txt explaining how to install the mission folder into your user missions folder; so you may test it in the editor or alter it to test other experiments.

Kind Regards walker

Edited July 25, 2010 by walker

[NeMeSiS 11]

Oh god, again...

Please, firstly do some reasearch how is AI doing what they are doing. Grass layer does NOT affect AI in any way. It is for multiplayer PvP purposes only. Grass texture itself is just an eyecandy and does NOT obscure AI's line of sight. And also consider to read up what "knowsAbout" in a game code means. That will explain you a lot and you will definitely grow sober from this naive conviction that AI is "real" or whatever fans of this game so eagerly say while gammon about "hardcore simulation" and "go play MW2 if you can't stand this real combat experience"...

Thank you.

Yes. Suma was lying when he said that grass effects the AI. Ofcourse not literally, but being in an area with grass does give the AI a penalty to spot you, which is pretty wel simulated IMO.

Also, knowsabout gives you a value how much a unit knows about anothers units side. I dont know why you brought that up, but its a pretty good way to check is the AI can see your right through everything.

EDIT: Though you are right the layer is for PvP only.

[walker 0]

Hi all

On the matter of MadRussian's Test mission. I have not tested but it is not testing ArmA II it is testing a Mod of ArmA II.

The post I made is about ArmA II Myths not ArmA II plus who knows what addon. By their nature all addons alter what happens; that is after all their purpose!

Explanation:

Scripts or MODs that insert objects may not insert them in full; including all LODs, or may insert them above or below ground, particularly on uneven ground or on ground of type that they were not intended for thus altering results.

If we are experimenting it behoves us to remove as much noise and variability from the experiment as possible; Mods and scripts are noise that can and do alter results. If you want to say something about ArmA II then you must in all honnesty experiment on ArmA II. If you add a Mod or script you are not testing ArmA II you are testing ArmA II plus the MOD or script!

This is to not to say we cannot expertiment on or test Mods and scripts, infact we must but we must all be clear that when we do so we are testing ArmA II and its interactions with the Mod or script.

It is considered normal for the experimentor to say what it is they are testing.

Kind Regards walker

[Takko 10]

Great mission walker, really busted the myth.

All OPFor vehicles and weapons are lower quality in terms of armor and ammo, when compared to their respective BLUFor equivalents.

I don't believe in that one. If anything, the OPFOR is overpowered since day one, with their serious AA capabilities and helicopters.

[maturin 12]

Great mission walker, really busted the myth.

I don't believe in that one. If anything, the OPFOR is overpowered since day one, with their serious AA capabilities and helicopters.

Agreed. Although their tanks can't stand up, Russian APCs and planes outclass their American horrendously in terms of firepower and versatility.

[soul_assassin 1750]

hearsay and speculation. We need proof.

[NeMeSiS 11]

I dont think that should be tested, someone who is less lazy then me should just open the configfiles and read the values.

[Heatseeker 0]

Here's a myth for you to crack:

All OPFor vehicles and weapons are lower quality in terms of armor and ammo, when compared to their respective BLUFor equivalents.

This is often heard on russian forums, and I would love to see this tested. I realise that perhaps it would be hard to test every vehicle, but a majority should defenately be tested.

That doesnt even qualify as a myth.. so it cant be busted.

LAV 25 vs BTR-90?

AAV vs BMP3?

UH1-Y vs Mi-24?

MH-60s vs Mi-8 MTV?

Afaik the russian military is not equiped half as well as it is represented in A2 so the Russians are actually overpowered (they might have the hardware but not produced and fielded in great numbers).

Edited July 25, 2010 by Heatseeker

[Second 0]

Okay. I will bust one MYTHBUSTED for starter.

If your on hill your are generally in better cover than guy who is lower than you. How come? I understand that if person believes that world is like ArmA universe then he doesn't see this. But in reality there's tons of cover/concealment everywhere, enough for scared guy to go hide in (reason why real firefights don't turn into bloodbath as they do in ArmA universe). This won't happen as easily if your facing enemy which can see you from much higher position.

While guy in higher position finds much more hard cover for himself from every nook there is (and usually there is plenty). If your obstructed to go into wilderness to try it, try it in OFP with high/very high terrain detail and you will see it in action: One doesn't need to seek that (actually reverse slope) position where top of the hill protects him. There's enough cover in enemy's side of hill as well... Reason why it's very often good idea to have higher position against enemies even to this date and to long future.

Reason why going too much downhill to enemy's side is ill-idea is that PRIMARY fallback and movement routes will be exposed to enemy's overwatch and fire. Naturally using hills/tall houses as fighting position has problems with being potentially too exposed to enemy's firesupport. Yet thru out history to this date (and to long future) top of the hills have been utilized with great success, even against highly overpowered (firepower and manpower) enemies. They offer cover, overwatch for defenders/ambushers. For opposition they offer increased firesupport possibilities but also exposure and fatigue while on their way to top.

Infact this works totally differently in ArmA. As person over hill will not see a sh!t because of grass while guy in bellow sees over the grass to hill. And guy in higher position usually doesn't have anysort of hard cover which he could use as firing position... So when he sees something like head of enemy he probably has exposed his torso to enemy.

So how do those bunch of idiots says it in TV... Myth confirmed?

Edited July 25, 2010 by Second

[walker 0]

Hi Second

Title of thread:

Mythbusters ArmA edition.

Hint Hint

If you want to discuss its validity in the real world there is an offtopic military thread.

Kind Regards walker

[vinc3nt 10]

oh oh i have one! Running/sprinting into a little bird anti-torque causes it to have engine and anti-toqure failure. *I already now the answer BTW ;)*

[r71 0]

oh oh i have one! Running/sprinting into a little bird anti-torque causes it to have engine and anti-toqure failure. *I already now the answer BTW ;)*

Yep, and nothing happens to the guy that runs or walks into it. I dont mind this so much. It would be nice if it killed the person that runs into it though.

What I do mind is that when you hover next to the ground you can flip over easy, if there is a person next to your chpper. Its almost like the chopper has no weight at all to it.

Edited July 26, 2010 by R71

[Bouben 3]

Yes. Suma was lying when he said that grass effects the AI. Ofcourse not literally, but being in an area with grass does give the AI a penalty to spot you, which is pretty wel simulated IMO.

Also, knowsabout gives you a value how much a unit knows about anothers units side. I dont know why you brought that up, but its a pretty good way to check is the AI can see your right through everything.

EDIT: Though you are right the layer is for PvP only.

No, Suma wasnt lying. He was talking about penalty. Thats all. No LOS effect. Once you fire a round you are unable to hide anymore untill enemy's knowsabout disappear. Grass does not hide you like bushes or houses for example does. That's it.

[Defunkt 431]

If you fire at the AI they aren't going to forget all about you just because you hide behind a bush.

[Grizzle 0]

oh oh i have one! Running/sprinting into a little bird anti-torque causes it to have engine and anti-toqure failure. *I already now the answer BTW ;)*

Somehow I've managed to avoid running into tail rotors in BIS games. And I don't really see any need to start now. Maybe you should just avoid them?

[NeMeSiS 11]

No, Suma wasnt lying. He was talking about penalty. Thats all. No LOS effect. Once you fire a round you are unable to hide anymore untill enemy's knowsabout disappear. Grass does not hide you like bushes or houses for example does. That's it.

I never said that wasnt the case, but if it did it would be ridiculous. It would mean that you can hide everywhere like you are behind some invisble object and grass doesnt do that. And ingame it would give you a huge advantage over the AI since the AI also doesnt disappear in the grass layer.

Edited July 26, 2010 by NeMeSiS

[walker 0]

No, Suma wasnt lying. He was talking about penalty. Thats all. No LOS effect. Once you fire a round you are unable to hide anymore untill enemy's knowsabout disappear. Grass does not hide you like bushes or houses for example does. That's it.

Two sections Quoted without spoiler just for your benefit as you seem not to have read them:

...MYTH. The AI Cheats and can see me when it shouldn't and when I would not be able to see it

First up: No AI in any game sees anything.

They never have and it will be some time, involving masses of work by serious computer scientists and professors, until they do. Along the way several Nobel Prizes will be given to the computer scientists that achieve each bit of it.

NB You are not concealed by the fact you are behind something!

Following on from this, the excuse of: I ran behind the tree/bush/house(insert object) and the AI still new where I was, so it must be cheating; is equally lame.

Shooting, making a noise, such as rustling in the bushes, or stomping your boots around, moving about and sky lining your head to take a peak when in the AI's or players arc of view, or trying to be stealthy with the telegraph poll of an AT weapon on your back; all bust concealment.

Concealment does not magically reappear because you want it to.

The peekaboo behind the blankie effects!

NB You are not concealed by the fact your eyes are behind something!

This is the lesson you learn after many games with your parent or guardian of peekaboo behind the blankie! You remember this game The adult holds the blankie up in front of your eyes so you cannot see them. They watch your little legs kick in joy and listen to your little giggles of anticipation; because this the great all time bestseller, Game of the Eon (GOTEee) classic, "Peekaboo behind the blankie" game; and suddenly they pull the blankie away from in front of your eyes and say Peekaboo and you laugh and they laugh and much merriment is had by all!

One Day after much merriment and mirth playing "Peekaboo behind the blankie" you realise that the adult is in fact behind the blankie and that they can see you all the time; at this point the merriment becomes less and the joke appears lame, much to the distress of all concerned, because the little baby is growing up.

The grass may be covering your eyes but it ain't concealing your ass or your legs; because your fat ass lying down in it flattened it! Ever see those gaps in the corn where two people have been eh? nods as good as wink to the blind soldier with a grass blankie in front of his eyes!

Also we probably work out the adult is behind said blankie because they giggle too, and we saw them put the blankie up, which when you think about it later is a dead give away.

The AI is affected by Peekaboo Behind the Blankie same as you!

The following test using a team switch to set up an AI behind an obscuring grass object proves they too are affected by it!

What AI does to those still playing Peekaboo Behind the Blankie is the same as what happens to a noob in PvP

Following on from that, this is what the AI does when it realises you are still playing and giggling at the Peekaboo Behind the Blankie game!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrfTQXXOxMI

As you can see the AI is reacting almost exactly the way a human MP player does to any noob who does not realise they have been seen. I must embarrassingly admit that this still happens to me sometimes in PvP. :(

MTHBUSTED! ...

...MYTH: The AI saw me when I was down in the grass, it should not have been able to.

THE AI DOES NOT SEE ANYTHING IN ANY GAME!

For the AI Grass clutter, smoke, fog rain and perhaps dust is a statistical factor this is true in all games not just BIS's.

This is what Marek the CEO of BIS has said about the grass layer concealment:

All discussed in more detail in this thread

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=81935

Factors involved in AI awareness:

1) Afore-knowledge, if your knowsAbout value has increased due to the AI seeing you already

2) Activity:

a) Shooting and making a noise

b) Movement including speed and size of movement, a head turn is more stealthy than running down the street.

3) Distance

4) Camouflage values (in your units config)

a) Are you person or a vehicle?

b) Are you classed as a sniper and thus wearing a ghillie suit?

c) Straight lines are a big give away in spotting, so an AT tube on your back reduces your camouflage value.

5) Acuity:

a) The crewmen of a vehicle (they seem to be treated as group X) looking through the vision slots of an armored vehicle in a urban setting are not as good at spotting things as an officer or sniper on a hill looking out over a plane.

b) Optics, binoculars and sights improve spotting range.

It is not known if Optics reduce AI peripheral vission (the test for this would be how close to an AI sniper on a watch direction you can sneak compared to a soldier with iron sights, that said the woodcraft of a sniper, exhibited as general skill, would be higher than that of a normal soldier so a better test is the same soldier, first equipped with iron sights and then with a sniper scoped rifle.)

6) Environmental factors:

a) Weather

b) Smoke

7) Direction of facing, beware of heads turning, peripheral vision is simulated in ArmA

8) Communication, units in a group X know about entities as a group and may pass the information to other groups, particularly the famous ArmA Guard waypoint does this where the threat is tank y and unit x or group X has no AT capability it will call on unit z or Group Z to fulfill this.

9) Distraction; if AI x is more concerned with a higher threat y2, or is being suppressed and concerned with getting out of fire.

10) Fear the AI can in some circumstances be "Fleeing" then x is not concerned with y.

11) Awareness; an AI tank buttoned up but in safe mode can be sneeked up on from behind and a satchell charge placed under it. Try doing this with an aware tank and bye bye.

12) Intervening objects and terrain, of course how much of you is visible affects whether you are seen, but it is the last thing in the algorithm! (Ask any decent programmer why!)

And the test that proves the AI are affected by the distant grass layer and assault and or shoot at last known position is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6mI410K_ZU

MTHBUSTED! ...

Kind Regards walker

Edited July 26, 2010 by walker
Removed hotlinks and replaced with URL

[r71 0]

Walker just do the test I told you about in my post. All This extra stuff you see in the videos is not needed. Its so flat out plain to see that they can see you behind two bushes and in the grass.

No myth about it, just plain fact that they can see you. Do my test the way I have it set up and then come back here with a video of it.

If I can figure out now how to make a fraps video smaller I will make my own to show you.

Edited July 26, 2010 by R71

[Second 0]

Hi Second

Title of thread:

Mythbusters ArmA edition.

Hint Hint

If you want to discuss its validity in the real world there is an offtopic military thread.

Kind Regards walker

Then don't throw those arguments around yourself:

There was a time when I used to make this mistake. It comes from seeing all those films where they take the hill to be in a tactically superior position. A case of Hollywood negative training as it were.

In the old days of land wars, of cavalry charges and short range missile weapons like spears and bows, the gravity well afforded by a hill gave you a big advantage, With high powered rifles and machine guns, rockets and artillery that has disappeared.

Now if you would have wanted outline it discuss purely of ArmA universe merely then it would have been okay. But problem i see here is that you try to give hint that same thing happens in reality as well and using top sides of hills as advantage is out dated.

[Grizzle 0]

No myth about it, just plain fact that they can see you. Do my test the way I have it set up and then come back here with a video of it.

I tired it myself. Just like you set it up. Did about 6 trials using the bushes you indicated as well as another set a bit further east but even closer to the dirt road.

Out of the six times they found me twice. I managed to avoid detection the other times buy changing my position behind the bushes so that I was facing the direction from which they were coming versus facing the road they would be running along. I was prone in all cases and if I had to guess I would say that my legs were sticking out in plain view when I was facing the road. By concealing myself in a straight line with their line of sight the only way they could have seen me is if they looked to their left as they passed by. They didn't.

Seems to me they do block, but you just need to be careful about your positioning.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Grizzle

[Guest]

I have a myth which I am interested in finding out:

Do suppressed weapons in Arma 2 have less power/speed/range than their un-suppressed twins?

Making silenced weapons less powerful is a stupid video game myth, I was just wondering how Arma 2 approaches it.

Thanks!