Default FOV too zoomed in?

Anyone else feel like the default FOV is too zoomed in? Instead of bringing the sight up to your eye, you're eye zooms up to the sight. You can see guys a few hundered yard away that look very close when you zoom in as well. Every gun feels like a scope is on it, even when it's a red dot sight or something. Pressing - twice leaves the guns sights too far away but feels like you're not 10 feet in front of the actor.

Anyone else agree?

That's cos the red-dot sight doesn't just magnify the scope but the whole screen. I never worried about it before but it is a bit daft isn't it!

MacBradley, do the math. Say you're 36" from a 1280x1024 19" monitor.

A 2m man at 300m should be 0.38° tall.

0.38° at 36" is 0.24 inches tall of a 12" monitor which is 2%.

2% of a 1024px is 20.5 pixels.

I realize it depends on resolution and monitor size as well, but with a 24" screen that's not very far away, the people are far too big when 300 yards away and zoomed in with the right click.

In fact with default zoom, when zooming in to the max, it is very hard to see/shoot at targets at >300m. Keep in mind you can't keep a realistic 120 degree FOV and see stuff easily at 300m (which you should be able to), so a compromise is made giving you something in between. Personally I feel I need to go to the player.arma2profile file and reduce the default FOV to 60% of its default value to comfortably see and hit targets at long distances. Zooming out still gives me similar to the default FOV if I really feel I have a hard time moving around (which only really happens during CQB on rare occasions, otherwise 60% FOV is still more than enough for me). Granted, for people with less experience with shooter games a small FOV makes moving around very difficult.

MacBradley, do the math. Say you're 36" from a 1280x1024 19" monitor.

A 2m man at 300m should be 0.38° tall.

0.38° at 36" is 0.24 inches tall of a 12" monitor which is 2%.

2% of a 1024px is 20.5 pixels.

The normal vertical FOV I think is regarded 120 degrees. Lets keep this as our reference.

There are three different settings in Arma2 that affect FOV/zoom:

-Arma2.profile has fowTop which can used for zooming and its default value is 0.75 (meaning there is 1.33 magnification from reference).

-Characters config has initFOV, minFOV and maxFOV that affect player FOV. Default initFOV is 0.7 meaning there is 1/0.75/0.7 = 1.9 magnification from reference (values are relative to fovTop?!).

-Weapons config has opticsZoomInit, opticsZoomMin, opticsZoomMax that are used when looking through scope. Default opticsZoomInit for M16 is 0.5 meaning there is 1/0.75/0.5 = 2.67 magnification from reference (or with opticsZoomMin 5.33 magnification).

So if we look at 2m tall man at 300 meters in monitor having 1024 vertical resolution he should appear as = ATAN(2/300)/PI()*180 / 120 * 1024 = 3.26 pixel tall - this is using the reference 120 degrees FOV. So he is hardly visible.

But in Arma2 he appears 3.26 / (0.75*0.7) = 6.21 pixel tall with default FOV.

And when looking through default scope he appears 3.26 / (0.75 * 0.5) = 8.69 pixel tall

And when zooming in through scope he appears 3.26 / (0.75 * 0.25) = 17.38 pixel tall (=5.33*ref).

I don't know if my calculus is correct as it is difficult to verify actual pixel values in game but it is easy to measure the relative magnifications.

How tall the man appears in player's eye of course depends on the size of the monitor and how far you are looking at.

-KJT-

First, that isn't calculus, it's trigonometry at best. Second, "I think vFOV is 120°" has got to be the flimsiest and most arbitrary starting postulate ever. Bringing up non-default FOVs is also just pretentious wankery trying to make a simple topic confusing. The original post obviously is concerned with, and only with, the default minimum FOV view on weapons without optics as the game comes out of the box.

By the way, remember when I supposed that a 2m man at 300m should subtend 0.38° and thus 1/4" on my monitor-eyeball system? Well I just loaded up the editor with a man at 300m and put my ruler on the screen. Guess how big it was? ONE FACKING QUARTER OF ONE INCH.

First, that isn't calculus, it's trigonometry at best. Second, "I think vFOV is 120°" has got to be the flimsiest and most arbitrary starting postulate ever. Bringing up non-default FOVs is also just pretentious wankery trying to make a simple topic confusing. The original post obviously is concerned with, and only with, the default minimum FOV view on weapons without optics as the game comes out of the box.

By the way, remember when I supposed that a 2m man at 300m should subtend 0.38° and thus 1/4" on my monitor-eyeball system? Well I just loaded up the editor with a man at 300m and put my ruler on the screen. Guess how big it was? ONE FACKING QUARTER OF ONE INCH.

You seem to be upset - really no need to be.

-KJT-

So, when is it the place of someone spreading B.S. around to decide if it's ok for that person to be spreading B.S. around? It seems like a conflict of interest. It's like getting pulled over by police and telling them "No problem, don't be upset, there's no reason to be."

I admit that using 120° as reference was bad example. I'm just interested to find out what is the actual in game FOV. Initially I thought that fovTop is relative value but I noticed in camSetFOV in wiki where it says "The angle of the field of view is the FOV*2 radians when in 4:3 aspect ratio". So with fovTop 0.75 that means 86° (and not 90° which I had earlier). And when player's default FOV is applied (0.7) FOV = fovTop*initFOV = 60.2° ? Or when M16 scope/sight default zoom is applied (0.5) FOV = fovTop*opticsZoomInit = 43.0° ?

-KJT-

ArmA I had a patch released once that decreased the default FOV... apparently BIS felt that it was too wide before...

ArmA II seems to have carried on the new, narrower FOV... at times it does feels a little claustrophobic... but also opening the FOV via the 2xMinus key may be too much, and there will be distortion around the edges...

What I did has solved the problem for me, but it's admittedly impractical for anyone without a HOTAS stick... what I did was map one of the joystick axes to control FOV directly. THe result is that I have no fixed FOV anymore, and am able to set it as I like at any time...

I've noticed that seeing the FOV as too narrow or too wide is mostly a matter of being used to one ir the other... today, I left my FOV wide open during the whole game, and actually didn't notice it... other times, the difference between fully open FOV and right-click zoom FOV seems too big and it annoys me a little... so I close up the FOV again... anyways, what I'm trying to say is that FOV is largely a matter of taste anyways, so set it as it makes you happiest... it's pointless to discuss what the optimal setting is ;)

Cheers

I'm not sure. Assuming that BIS didn't want the game to look squished or stretched based on your monitor there must be one dimension, horizontal or vertical, that is "set in stone." The other dimension would just be "whatever fits." Personally I would define the horizontal FOV and let the vertical FOV be whatever fits.

It doesn't make sense to let the user specify hFOV and vFOV separately since they are not independent. Maybe it picks whichever of the two is smaller or larger. It seems like FOV = 1.0 would be 2 radians just as a baseline. The math you're using to compound onto the in-game FOVs makes perfect sense and is how I'd do it as a developer.

From my experiences modding ArmA1 I know that BIS uses radians for their angles a lot so it's likely defined that way.

I admit that using 120° as reference was bad example. I'm just interested to find out what is the actual in game FOV. Initially I thought that fovTop is relative value but I noticed in camSetFOV in wiki where it says "The angle of the field of view is the FOV*2 radians when in 4:3 aspect ratio". So with fovTop 0.75 that means 86° (and not 90° which I had earlier). And when player's default FOV is applied (0.7) FOV = fovTop*initFOV = 60.2° ? Or when M16 scope/sight default zoom is applied (0.5) FOV = fovTop*opticsZoomInit = 43.0° ?

-KJT-

In game FOV had already been measured, though the thread title is a bit misleading:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=77946&highlight=ACOG+FOV

Using radians definitely makes a lot of sense, it's just so much easier from both a programming perspective and calculation perspective. Just a bit harder to understand when compared to RL values because you're not used to seeing radians but rather degrees, but I'd rather multiply by 180/PI when I want to compare to RL values rather than multiply by PI/180 every time I want to calculate anything in the program I'm making ;)

At least they made your life easy in the editor and gave you degrees, since you mostly use them for directions and less for calculations.

In game FOV had already been measured, though the thread title is a bit misleading:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=77946&highlight=ACOG+FOV

Thanks for link.

I did some measurements by constructing 100m*50m wall at utes airport by setpos'ing objects at its corners. Then I measured distances from wall when it covered my screen either vertically or horizontally. This way I was finally able to verify formulas to calculate vertical and horizontal FOV using fovTop, fovLeft, initFov parameters (or use minFov, maxFov, opticsZoomInit, opticsZoomMin and opticsZoomMax instead of initFov).

This explains fovTop and fovLeft:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showpost.php?p=1235460&postcount=5

vertical FOV

fov = 2 * arctan(fovTop*initFov)

horizontal FOV

fov = 2 * arctan(fovLeft*initFov)

EDIT: These are in radians. Convert to degrees by multiplying with 180/PI

if zoom is considered relative to initFov (player's default view) then

zoom = initFov/opticsZoom (for example 0.7/0.25 = 2.8)

if default view is already considered as zoom in from ref. 90° then

zoom = 1/opticszoom (so 1/0.25 = 4)

Here is table based on measurements:

fovTop	fovLeft	initFov	v_dist	h_dist	v_FOV	h_FOV
1.6	1.6	1	32	32	115.9	115.9
1	1	1	50	50	90	90
0.75	1	1	66.7	50	73.7	90
1	1	0.7	72	72	69.6	69.6
0.75	1	0.7	96	72	55	69.6
0.75	1.2	0.7	96	60	55	79.6

v_dist and h_dist are distances [m] when screen is filled either in vertical or horizontal direction. FOV is converted to degrees. Measured FOV values are almost the same as calculated with formulas above (small error in some measurements).

The FOV value that was measured in the given link by galzohar using tanks is horizontal FOV and its exact value is 80.1° (using the formula - so view width was 167m and not 180m).

So fovTop = 1 gives 90 degree vertical FOV which seems to be the reference. And using default fovTop = 0.75 and initFov = 0.7 we have only 55° vertical FOV (and horizontal FOV depends on aspect ratio).

I checked the height of man standing at 300 meters on my 1900x1200 monitor using default FOV and player zoom. He was 7 pixel tall. Or with max zoom in using M16 sight he was 20 pixels. So that part of my original "calculus" was close enough.

The resolution of human eye is something like 0.02°-0.03° (from wiki). So if game has fov 90° it would require 90/0.025 = 3600 pixels as vert resolution for monitor to match the eye.

Considering all these factors it is no wonder that it is hard (for a game developer) to choose FOV (default and for weapon sights) that suits all.

-KJT-

Part of the original comment was:

Instead of bringing the sight up to your eye, you're eye zooms up to the sight.

This is direct result of having different ZoomMin and ZoomMax values (which are there to let player have wider FOV). Player does not move his head relative to the sight but the FOV is changed to zoom in or out (to compensate this player needs to move his head away from the monitor).

The frontage that is visible (or hFOV) when looking at non-scope sight depends on the aspect ratio, but when looking at scope view the hFOV should match RL hFOV and frontage.

The reference when deciding correct opticsZoom value for given magnification is 0.25, which should then be opticsZoomMin value that corresponds to 1X magnification.

-M16A4_ACG_GL has 4X magnification and its opticsZoomMin is 0.0623 (0.25/0.0623 = 4)

-M12 has 10X magnification and its opticsZoomMin is 0.0249 (0.25/0.0249 = 10)

ACOG 4X should have 7 deg hFOV and with hFOV formula:

atan(0.0623*1.0)/pi*360 = 7.1 deg.

And the scope hFOV is correct also in widescreen as then the diameter of the scope view covers only part of screen width. So that means that frontage that you see in the scope view at any given distance is always as it would be in RL.

EDIT: I should have tested more before saying that. At least if fovTop < 0.75, 4X scope view does not have correct 7 deg hFOV anymore (only works if fovTop = 0.75). If fovTop is decreased from 0.75 there just will be extra magnification with all scopes (and visible frontage will be less than in RL). That is good to keep in mind if changing these values.

-KJT-

It would have been nice to be able to configure FOV in options, along with headshake/floatzone etc.

That would ease the process

I don't know if that's sarcasm or not because floatzone and headshake are configurable in the options with a slider. FOV can be changed in a player profile with a notepad edit as well.

Also I'm pretty sure that using M16A4 ironsights adjusts both your eyepoint and your FOV.

Also I'm pretty sure that using M16A4 ironsights adjusts both your eyepoint and your FOV.

I meant that when player is already in ironsight mode and zooms in or out then his head does not appear to move. Only fov is changed.

-KJT-

I meant that when player is already in ironsight mode and zooms in or out then his head does not appear to move. Only fov is changed.

-KJT-

Yes, I think everyone agree with that (even though the matching trackIR movement is head forward/backward, which seems to be why many people disable that axis).

Um, there is no Z-eyepoint movement in ArmA2... it's always FOV changes. That's what "zoom" is.

Um, there is no Z-eyepoint movement in ArmA2... it's always FOV changes. That's what "zoom" is.

Isn't that what we just said? ;)

For somebody who's new to arma2, where can i set the fov? I know it's in a profile but where is that file? (win xp)

Thanks!

I've located the profile file and i'm looking at fovTop=0.75 and fovLeft=1.2. Basically i would like to try the FOV at 85 and 90. Can somebody tell me what values i have to put behind fovTop and fovLeft?

I'm not so good in math and shamefully i must say i can't understand most of the formula's in this thread.. :/

I've located the profile file and i'm looking at fovTop=0.75 and fovLeft=1.2. Basically i would like to try the FOV at 85 and 90. Can somebody tell me what values i have to put behind fovTop and fovLeft?

I'm not so good in math and shamefully i must say i can't understand most of the formula's in this thread.. :/

What I'm going to do is take my old FOV settings from ArmA1 and see what happens....I'll post my results.

afaik the angle is in radians, 2PI radians = 360 degrees, so 90 degrees is ~1.57 radians, though testing it shows that this is not very accurate. You'll get pretty close to a 90deg FOV though with 1.57 as fovLeft (and the matching number for fovTop according to your aspect ratio, in our case 0.98125).

If anything, though, the default FOV is too zoomed out. Even with zooming in on default FOV it's very hard to see people at 300m and beyond, and that's with the zoomed-in default FOV being between 30 and 45 degrees. Default unzoomed seems somewhere between 60 and 90 degrees, and zoomed out between 90 and 120 degrees. It's not extremely close to either value (seems like zoomed in is 2X, zoomed out X2/3). Anyway remember it's not all about FOV, seeing distant enemies/friendlies is just as important as seeing close by ones.