Attn bis: ai sees thru vegetation, player cannot!

[dgrrr 0]

(NOTE - I posted a similar message on another OpFlash forum, but I wanted to repost it here so that there's a chance that a BIS person will actually see it.)

I remember somebody saying that one of the patches fixed some issue with the vegetation... And another person brought up the great point that the AI seems unable to see you when you're IN a bush, but can see you when you're BEHIND a bush. That's been a useful trick.

But right now I'm playing some recon missions at nighttime,and the best way to advance (I think) is thru the patches of forest.

But if I run across the stray soldier in the woods, forget it. It's all over. He sees me - I can't see him. If my squadmates see him before he sees me, then maybe I can survive. But do you know how frustrating it is, to watch him disapear behind vegetation, and no longer see him, but know that he can both see me & shoot me thru trees! The trees aren't providing enuf cover to protect me when I "hide behind them" -- I still get shot.

I just wish that somehow things were more "even", between the AI & the human single-player, in this area. I know that makers of these kind of games specifcally develop graphics features relating to "transparency" to make the game seem more like real life. And you often can see "thru" bushes in OpFlash, by getting your eye right level with some gap between "globules" of vegetation. But it's not consistent enuf to actually "use" -- I mean, if I sight somebody "thru vegetation",and I switch to ironsighits, then the vegetation is blocking it... So I just have to crawl forward till I'm in front of the veg.

But I find that most of the time I can't see thru the bushes, and the badguys can. (The only relief is using my squadmates, but usually it's too late if I've stumbled upon some russian on his belly in the woods.)

Am I just being spoiled? Or do some of you also wish there was more parity in this "seeing thru vegetation" thing?

Maybe BIS could add an AI Control menu, with, among other things, turning off the AI's ability to see thru veg... Is that a dumb idea?

(NOTE -- I only play single player -- I understand that playing against people makes this issue moot)

[Wreck-It 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Maybe BIS could add an AI Control menu, with, among other things, turning off the AI's ability to see thru veg... Is that a dumb idea?

<span id='postcolor'>

Yup, the dumbest idea i've heard so far. No bush is perfectly even. your probably protruding, so this explains them seeing you. As for not seeing them, just set all details to max, augment the objects LOD and you'll see plenty. (If your hardware can take it...)

[Mister Frag 0]

Also, the AI reacts to sound as well as visual cues -- if you use your weapon, it might attract some unwanted attention.

[Major Fubar 0]

This issue has been raised a few times...I've never really had much of a problem hiding from AI in bushes etc. I usually get spotted only if I break cover or fire. I watched a friend of mine in a coop MP one time hide in a bush with an M60. There were a lot of enemy squads running straight past him, so he began firing. He took out about 20 to 30 guys without even being noticed!

One thing I did learn though is that fallen trees do not act the same as bushes for AI concealment, they seem to be able to see straight through it.

In forests is a different matter though, it's not 100% cover. Yes, AI do be able to spot you more easily than you can spot them.

[Aculaud 0]

this is a bit of a problem. Not only can AI see through some foliage, but also, they can see through tents as well. I find this a bit ludicrous, since we could never be able to do that.

[WKK Gimbal 0]

I don't have a problem hiding from AI.

Often I can breathe down their necks before taking them out

[Airwolf 50]

if you walk up behind an AI, even one in safe mode, he will just spin around real fast and pull his gun, doesnt matter if you are running walking or crawling.

[troop 0]

What dgrrr said is not dumb at all and it _is_ an issue with the AI. And it is annoying sometimes really, because it is unfair.

imo, of course.

Human players must trust in their true eye-sight (LOS; SP and MP) while the AI is not hindred by any obstacle.

As soon as the AI spots you only once, their 'knowsabout'

scripting comes into effect, which zeroes them in on your exact spot, no matter where you hide.

The 'knowsabout' time and 'quality' of your position degrees over time through various levels(5?), if you can run long and

_out_ of their LOS for long enough (really covered behind some hill) If you are out of their true LOS for 30 secs, their

'knowledge' about your position slowly 'fades' and they cant

attack/flank you® (former position) effectively anymore.

Until you shove your nose again out of da bush...

AFAIK, BIS already has altered this Ai knowledge in some patch (read:the 30 secs, then degration of knowledge)

because many players complained about the suddenly

superior 'knowledge of position' from AI.

Still, I would appreciate some control mechanism like

dgrrr mentioned to suit any players personal preference some

more. (They added SuperAI for the hard*core players,

personally I would like to alter the AI to 'forget' faster where I am, or only let them attack, if they have TRUE los...but thats me)

greets, troop

[WKK Gimbal 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (troop @ April 23 2002,19:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What dgrrr said is not dumb at all and it _is_ an issue with the AI. And it is annoying sometimes really, because it is unfair.

imo, of course.

Human players must trust in their true eye-sight (LOS; SP and MP) while the AI is not hindred by any obstacle.

As soon as the AI spots you only once, their 'knowsabout'

scripting comes into effect, which zeroes them in on your exact spot, no matter where you hide.

The 'knowsabout' time and 'quality' of your position degrees over time through various levels(5?), if you can run long and

_out_ of their LOS for long enough (really covered behind some hill) If you are out of their true LOS for 30 secs, their

'knowledge' about your position slowly 'fades' and they cant

attack/flank you® (former position) effectively anymore.

Until you shove your nose again out of da bush...

AFAIK, BIS already has altered this Ai knowledge in some patch (read:the 30 secs, then degration of knowledge)

because many players complained about the suddenly

superior 'knowledge of position' from AI.

Still, I would appreciate some control mechanism like

dgrrr mentioned to suit any players personal preference some

more. (They added SuperAI for the hard*core players,

personally I would like to alter the AI to 'forget' faster where I am, or only let them attack, if they have TRUE los...but thats me)

greets, troop<span id='postcolor'>

the knowsabout value is not the same used for positioning. knowsabout is used for advancing through the unit class tree or recognition, while a different targeting system is used for positioning.

You can see it too. knowsabout will change target info from vehicle to man to soldier to enemy soldier to machine gunner, for example. The positioning system is what the AI use to guess where you are when you make a sound or run behind an obstacle. You can see how tank gunners guess that the target is moving at constant speed in the same direction as when he lost track of it. And even if this targeting is way off, they will still know that you are a machine gunner and not a general vehicle.

When looking at the pattern used for positioning, you'll quickly see that alteration of speed and direction will lose the AI's aim faster, after seeking cover. Essentially you can lose their aim right away, by moving to cover and then change direction and shift position again. They will not know what you do after being out of sight/audible range. They will only guess that you ran straight ahead. The fact that they will spot you faster the next time you stick your head out somewhere, is only realistic and balanced, as they will be more alert to your presence.

Personally, I think it generally works very well. I'd quickly get bored if it was possible to knock out 5 squads before they found out I was there. Think about it. If it was totally realistic, you could not engage 2 enemy soldiers without them having twice the chance of winning the fight. However, that would result in some short missions

[troop 0]

What you say, makes perfect sense and works that way, you are correct. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Greg 0]

I had an issues with some 'brown grass' tufts that the enemy was hiding behind. I couldn't see them (2 of them), but they could always see me no matter how hard I tried to creep by. I ended up throwing grenades at them, watching the death sequence to see how close I got, adjusting my aim and repeating until I finally killed them both with a long grenade shot. Was totally stupid the grass completely blocked my vision and did not affect them at all.