A different Shouldered view that feels realistic?

[wamingo 1]

Bold statement for something you haven't even tried...

I like that you avoid the proposal :)

But I'll do you one better, I have tried playing with no crosshair at all and zero float and after just 30 minutes trying it I can easily shoot stuff at >100m unsighted. I'm sure the the no-crosshair no-float people can relate to this. It ain't that hard to find the center of the screen.

Finding the center of your new crosshair style? Even easier - guaranteed.

Now from the little bit I've tried using an air rifle, lining up a weapon unsighted is quite a lot more difficult than this game depicts. Your aim is moving all over the place, frankly. Even keeping a sighted aim steady is hard. Not to mention the weapon gets heavy quickly.. heh!

I did not try firing unsighted though.

Just imagine the bead moving within a larger circle of the crosshair bars -- and then make the bead invisible.

What's not to like?

[galzohar 31]

Carl, you totally misread me. I said that not using a crosshair becomes inaccurate when you use aiming deadzone, just as wamingo says. With no aiming deadzone, not using a crosshair at all is already more accurate than it should be if you just practice a little bit.

If you insist on using crosshairs, the bare minimum would be to remove the little thing in the middle that moves as your weapon recoils and/or as you breath/shake. Kinda similar to what they have for 7.62 MGs right now. Going further could of course help more, but no matter how far you go, it'll always be too accurate if your weapon always fires in the middle of the crosshair (or the middle of the screen which effectively acts as a huge crosshair if you turn aiming deadzone off).

The easiest solution would probably be to enforce a minimum aiming deadzone that is dependent on the dexterity of your current weapon, so if you set aiming deadzone to lower than that value you will have that value, but if you wish to set higher nobody will force you not to (though you won't set it higher if you wish to have a chance of hitting stuff without the crosshair). Keep in mind that the aiming deadzone needed to make proper inaccuracy happen is very very small, especially for light rifles, so people that don't like aiming deadzone won't really be bothered by it.

The problem with moving the bead more is that currently it only represents recoil and breathing/shaking, rather than something you can actually control. The aiming deadzone solution, on the other hand, allows you to correct your aim after you miss, which is what you would do IRL as well.

Edited May 22, 2010 by galzohar

[nkenny 1057]

The easiest solution would probably be to enforce a minimum aiming deadzone that is dependent on the dexterity of your current weapon, so if you set aiming deadzone to lower than that value you will have that value, but if you wish to set higher nobody will force you not to (though you won't set it higher if you wish to have a chance of hitting stuff without the crosshair). Keep in mind that the aiming deadzone needed to make proper inaccuracy happen is very very small, especially for light rifles, so people that don't like aiming deadzone won't really be bothered by it.

This.

One or more of these fixes. Fix the animations. Enforce a variable weapon specific deadzone. Ensure weapons are properly centered.

Also the deadzone ought to be be a rectangle that permits lowering weapons below field of view. (ala infiltration).

Win.

-k

edit: I can pretty much consistently hit targets at sub-200 meters using 'center screen'. Then again I used to play Quake3 without a crosshair with little problem.

edit2: Well made ironsights (like most of the guns in infiltration) render crosshair superfluous. Trust me. Proper centralized weapons be just as easy if not even more natural.

Edited May 22, 2010 by NkEnNy

[wamingo 1]

Yes you're right, it would be harder to re-adjust.

So what?

Isn't that really the point?

I'd like to see anyone try accurately re-adjust an aim unsighted at 100m's or more.

And pot shots != accurate aim.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

@galzohar:

Okay, got your point. And I agree. Also on that middle bead, hell it's even unaffected by fade :( The config value, not the copy protection :) So, there are good points to allow crosshairs, in order for floaters and/or TrackIR users to be able to use the game. I tested mine, and it is possible to interact with the correct crate by "crosshairing" it, even if your weapon is lowered. Just as easily as it is for us just by watching at it.

Since I'm not a floater and/or TrackIR player (I have it, but I can't get used to it), those problems won't affect me. The 5% forced float I'm using doesn't affect my ability to interact with people or objects, only my "screen aim".

Not sure I would be happy about dexterity dictating the amount of float though. I'm a machinegunner who can't stand floating zone. Means I wouldn't be able to play the role I enjoy the most. Our squad have only had one floater, and that was for performance reasons alone (not that I see how though). But a 5%-10% forced floating zone wouldn't have the same impact.

@wamingo:

Again I feel best would be to just add slight dispersion.Why would this not be feasible?I can't understand the argument that was given last time it was mentioned.

It would kill sniping, as it is not possible to check if you're "in the sights" and base the dispersion on that. If a general dispersion was added, people would complain like hell that they are not able to do range shooting. It was attempted in ACE1, and they got hammered for it (yeah, I liked it actually :D).

Dispersion, sway, and whatever can also be improved. But I'm trying to address what currently can be done about the situation. No crosshairs are only a good solution if you're not a floater or TrackIR user.

Edit: Btw, I'm not trying to remove "over the sight shooting", I'm trying to equalize between those who doesn't use a crosshair and those who do use a crosshair. Today, those with crosshairs can instantly snipe much faster than those who uses the sights. In addition, they don't loose the visuals that our sights block. For the MP5, not using sights is actually a bonus, since the crosshair is very small allowing fairly accurate "pot shots" (?). You can call it "being able to shoot with both eyes open" if you like, typical for CQB. On the M107 however, he may use the crosshair to get the rifle in the general direction to enter his scope. But shooting with that huge crosshair is less effective than using the scope. Not impossible to gauge and interpolate, but it takes enough time to loose the advantage of using crosshairs instead of scope.

Edited May 22, 2010 by CarlGustaffa

[galzohar 31]

Well they could solve the issue for floaters/trackIR users by making a key to disable them when you actually want to fire. No sane person looks with his head anywhere other than what he wants to shoot at anyway. I don't see myself turning my head 10 degrees to the left while shooting at a target straight in front and actually expecting to hit it. Using trackIR shouldn't allow you to shoot things you aren't looking at, but then again fixing the trackIR anomalies (as in, unrealistic things you can do with trackIR that you can't do with normal freelook no matter how many fingers you have nor how many buttons you can push at once) is an entire topic of its own.

In any case, people who insist on looking away from their rifle's muzzle should face the consequences rather than be catered for. I don't mind if you look away most of the time, just not while aiming/shooting accurately, as that is physically impossible IRL.

When it comes to dexterity, some trial and error might indicate that current values need to be adjusted (or have non-linear effects), but that really can only be said after some actual testing is done, to see if the weapons handle like they should. Remember that IRL, with an MG, when firing in standing/crouching without aiming, it's not very easy to get it to point straight at the target right away, and you would usually need to see where you're hitting and adjust.

Of course weapon weight needs to be simulated in many other areas other than unaimed accuracy (for example, how long you can hold the weapon shouldered before your arms get fatigued and how fast you can get up from prone), but again that's a different topic.

[Wolfstriked 11]

No way would I want more dispersion for weapons if they fire correct as is.BIS would need to add dispersion only when shouldered.Make the crosshair small and unobtrusive like even just a small dot.Then just add in dispersion when your NOT sighted.Slight dispersion so that turning a corner and enemy is there and you put dot on him hes dead and enemy at range is different matter all together.

[nkenny 1057]

Lets catalog the disadvantages that can be applied to the extreme weapons. (ultra shorties like the AKs-74u or M4 SBRs or heavy weapons like the M240 or MG3) Lets be realistic and consider the options that can be easily modelled in the ARMA2 engine yeah?

Disadvantage for short weapons

:: Increased dispersion or preferably lower muzzle velocity. (Decreased accuracy)

Disadvantage for very long and/or heavy weapons

:: Increased stamina drain (for running/sprinting/whatnot)

:: Slower “enter Ironsights†time

:: Unwieldy recoil when fired from unsupported positions or when moving.

Dexterity parameter should affect:

:: Sway caused by stamina loss or injury.

:: Time to bring up sights

:: Sway/misalignment experienced while moving

What have I missed?

Worth checking: Experience weight based ironsights/weapons

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=89809

I still think the ideal is to differentiate between the point of view (where the player wants to shoot) and the point of aim (where the barrel is currently pointed) and play with these characteristics to make a immersive experience.

In the end I feel it is doubtful any real changes will take place. Much of the problems are connected to unrealistic animations, broken/inefficient ironsights, and the cumbersome FOV options in Arma2. These are not small parts of the reality engine and have been present sine the dawn of time. ^^

Operation Flashpoint had a very simple system. Rectangular floatzone for all weapons – until ironsights mode enabled.

*sigh* That certainly worked.

-k

[CarlGustaffa 4]

@NkEnNy:

What works for you may not work for others. That includes me, I could never "get" the OFP "feel". In all those years it just felt completely awkward. From post #13 in the link you provided:

and most people turn off floating zone altogether anyway

Why do you think that is? Don't get me wrong. I'm all for "feeling dexterity", but just not in the way it was done in OFP.

In the end I feel it is doubtful any real changes will take place.

So why not fix what can be fixed? Or at least help the situation somewhat.

Much of the problems are connected to unrealistic animations, broken/inefficient ironsights, and the cumbersome FOV options in Arma2.

Animations are out of reach. Not sure what you mean by broken/inefficient ironsight (I assume that also means non overlay based sights), I can shoot pretty well with (almost) all rifles. Same with vanilla FOV, I have no issues there.

So, those work for me, but not for you. Funny how that goes both ways? :)

I think most of your suggestions are stuff that BIS would have to address, not the casual modder. My crosshair idea was based on what can be done today with relatively simple means, by just about anyone.

@Wolfstriked:

Then just add in dispersion when your NOT sighted

As I already said, not possible to find out when you're sighted or not (afaik at least, I think we would have had this ages ago if it could). Maybe OA will allow it, who knows.

[wamingo 1]

Carl, pardon me, but what do you mean by: "check if you're in the sights" ?

Are you talking trackIR?

But this is a suggestion section mainly for BIS. I don't care terribly much for half-solutions to be honest.

[Wolfstriked 11]

He means the game does not have a way to set different dispersion when sighted compared to when shouldered.

[dayglow 2]

Instead of adding layers on complications to the game why not just play the way you want to play? I can snipe with the crosshairs, but I don't because I like using the sights. I don't need the game to force me to. All it adds is complications and glitches that are unintended. People spend too much time worrying how others play.

If it's such a concern how others play find other people that like to play the same way. It's no different than before computer MP exsisted and you had agreed rules with your friends for a game of baseball or kickball. Every group of kids have their own rules, yet it still worked. I don't understand why with computer games people expect that every MP game should be tailored to how they want to play the game.

[wamingo 1]

Ah, of course, thanks wolfstrike.

Carl is interested in changing it via a mod, I'd rather BIS made it standard.

Dayglow - I really look at it from a realism-perspective. This is about how accurate unsighted vs sighted is in real life.

And it shouldn't really be more complicated, because like learning how to ride a bike - Sighted is more steady/accurate than unsighted - It makes perfect sense and feels natural and so it's learned quickly.

I realise this has nothing to do with wolfstrike's original proposal. sorry for going so OT.

About that I'm not sure what to say yet.

[Wolfstriked 11]

In a way your right Dayglow,its just I like spraying bullets.;)

Edited May 23, 2010 by Wolfstriked

[Wolfstriked 11]

NM I am getting pretty proficient firing with no crosshair/unsighted.It actually feels good like this.I just went around taking out windows and trees at varying distances and you can actually can become pretty proficient at it.As someone once said no crosshair is good since it relies alot more on skill when unsighted.Medium and long range is still a bitch and thats great.

Edited May 24, 2010 by Wolfstriked

[CarlGustaffa 4]

@wamingo: Yes naturally I would want it as standard. But the videos from OA tells otherwise, it's still those sniping crosshairs when they are enabled. I don't mind having crosshairs, I only bitch about having them as accurate as they are now (and in the future).

@Wolfstriked: Try adding a little bit (5-10%) of floating zone to counter that. Close targets will still be pretty easy, but don't expect first shot hits at above 50-100m distance. You and me can use mods to get rid of crosshairs for servers that enforce them, but those who don't still get a very unfair advantage.

Why shouldn't they be removed completely? Read the whole thread.

[Wolfstriked 11]

I am against that floating zone bud.It feels really weird to me like its too sensitive even at %5percent.I am playing now with no crosshairs and loving it!!

Just wanna give a mention of Project Reality and its coming to A2.Can't believe I never heard of this till yesterday.This mod team seems to have done ALOT of what we are requesting in their BF2:PR mod.Look at these videos to see what I mean.First is stock BF2 and second is BF2:PR.Notice the position of weapon is what we have been asking for and it wasn't bad in stock BF2.The amount of recoil looks nice.I also like how they removed all zoom from game so that what you see is what you get always...and that stands for always stuck in 1st person for infantry and vehicles...another plus.

"Fun in a humvee" just because its pretty kool to watch this.PVP looks amazing!