BIS: It's already time to FIX the M136!!!

[Zipper5 74]

Not to be confused with that "other game". :rolleyes:

But yes, it is simply a marketing slogan. If you want the ultimate military simulator, buy VBS2.

[ricnunes 0]

Ricunes, perhaps you could reiterate your test methods. Was it only on the BMP-3? How many times did you test? Did you test under controlled conditions? Did all of your shots hit? You did all of your tests without mods?

I'm not saying you're stupid by suggesting your methods are flawed. I haven't yet tested on a BMP-3. Perhaps there is something complex happening with the BMP-3's dimensions or damage model. When you respond with explicit instructions, I'll try and replicate your results.

Well I've already posted the conditions of my tests but I'll try to detail a little bit more how my test were done:

1- In the editor put a soldier (which is the player) faced at 170 degrees. This soldier will be either armed with a M136 or RGP-18 (depend on which weapon do you wish to test).

2- Then put a crewed BMP-3 (an empty one will also do it as but I think a crewed one will certainly show better results since you'll know better if the BMP was damaged to a point where the crew wil bail out or not). This BMP-3 was placed south from the player's (soldier) position at a distance between 70 to 80 meters. This BMP-3 is also faced at 170 degrees which places the player's soldiers behing the BMP-3 position.

3- Aim you're AT weapon (M136 or RPG-18) at the BMP-3 turret (rear turret to be more precise).

With me (and without any mod) the results couldn't be more diferent:

- Hitting with the M136 the BMP-3 turret shows visual damage but it's still fully funcional (it will turn and shoot back at the player, if the player is an West Soldier).

- Hitting with the RPG-18 the crew will imediatly bail out an a second later it will explode (and the crew normally dies with the explosion since it doesn't have time to get away from the damaged BMP-3).

I hope that this information will be enough for you (or others) to try to duplicate this.

[galzohar 31]

Maybe you're not hitting the same spot with each weapon? Try "zeroing" yourself by hitting a small sign post first so that you know you're able to aim at the exact same spot and then compare. RPG-18 has whacky sights so you might be hitting higher/lower which may be resulting in hitting a more vulnerable area.

[Guest]

I have tried but can't duplicate. Sorry.

:(

[ricnunes 0]

ricnunes, you are really annoying. If EVERYBODY is speaking against you, and physical, written PROOF denies you, why do you insist to carry on?

Get over it! You want it fixed? Learn to mod. Nobody wants to hear you insulting others and screaming like a little baby.

Ok this will be the last time that I'll reply to you!

I didn't insulted anyone here but NOW I'm officially insulting you: Are you retarded you something?? Something no, you're just plain retarded! And yes, I'm insulting you and the reasons are:

1- If you care to read all the posts in this thread you'll see that there are people that AGREES with my post (and this thread)!

2- I BOUGHT this game with my HARD EARNED money, so it won't be YOU that will decide wether or not I should sugest or even complain about something that I think that's wrong with this game and that I wish to see it solved!

3- If you think that I'm so wrong and that this thread is all wrong and pointless, WHY THE HELL DO YOU BOTHER POSTING HERE? Go post somewhere else for christ sake!

4- You know I play 99% of this game ONLINE which means that modding isn't often or usually an option for this case (in ONLINE) since tampering with a weapon's effectiveness can either:

a) Be a cheat!

b) Perhaps even crashing a server!

Anyway, like I said I BOUGHT this game to PLAY IT and NOT to MOD IT! If you prefer to mod this game instead of actually playing it be my guest, but that's not my case and NO I don't want to learn to mod. I respect modders very must but modding is NOT "my cup of tea". And for me solving problems or bugs is completly diferent than modding!

5- Finally, you don't need to bother replying to me, you're now officially added to my ignore list. And I hope you do the same regarding me, at least you wont bother with my pointless/childish complains which IMO serves the purpose to improve this game! Or do you thing that if people didn't sugest or complain that we would have aircraft countermasures or FLIR like we will have in Arrowhead?? If we were to depend on guys like you we would never have such features (even in Op. Arrowhead)!

Well, I just spent to much time with you! Over and OUT!

---------- Post added at 02:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:16 AM ----------

Maybe you're not hitting the same spot with each weapon? Try "zeroing" yourself by hitting a small sign post first so that you know you're able to aim at the exact same spot and then compare. RPG-18 has whacky sights so you might be hitting higher/lower which may be resulting in hitting a more vulnerable area.

Yes, I agree that the RPG-18 has "whacky sights" but I think that I was hitting the turret but nevertheless I'll repeat the tests to be sure that I'm hitting the right spot.

Anyway, the point is that even if the M136 have the same (or similar) destructive power as the the RPG-18 that is COMPLETLY WRONG since the M136 (again in real life) is MUCH MORE powerfull than the RPG-18. I posted info about this (so there's no point in posting it again). Please don't tell me with the balance argument or that "this is a game" since that way we could also have AK-47's with the same range and power as the AK-74 or the M16 - how about that for "balance"?? I guess that if this happened no one would like it, would it? The same happens with this M136/RPG-18 thing...

Edited February 15, 2010 by ricnunes

[Guest]

No, i'm not going to reply to you in the same manner you do to me. All your posts are ridiculous. This whole thread is just you talking a whole load of nonsense.

Even if everything you say is totally correct, it's only happening to YOU. So get over it. Even the people who are being much more polite to you than I am can not replicate your results.

We have all tried to tell you, and have succesfully proven to you, that you are INCORRECT.

Just stop posting. We all see your point, and there is nothing you can do about it.

---------- Post added at 03:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 AM ----------

p.s

You only need to look at the ridiculous title of this thread to see what a moron you are being.

*Complain complain complain, all I do is complain*

Go and develop a game yourself if it's so damn easy.

Man I have never got so flamed up before, you're a special one, you!

[Flash Thunder 10]

Have you made a ticket yet over at Dev Heaven????

Or vote on the subject matter.

Give it time, it will be ironed out BIS like sneaking in alot of features into their games it seems, fixes whatnot.

[max power 21]

M136

Hit to the gun caused the gun to go red, made the turret orange, and the tracks lime.

Hit to the front turret caused the gun to go red, made the turret red, the tracks lime and the engine lime.

Hit to rear of turret destroyed the vehicle nearly instantly.

Hit to the rear turret caused the turret to go red, gun to go orange, tracks to go yellow, and engine to go orange.

Hit to the side hull made on track red, turret orange, engine lime.

Hit to the side turret made the turret go orange, the main gun go orange, and the track go orange.

RPG-18

Hit to the front turret caused the gun to go orange, one track to go red, and the other to go yellow.

Hit to the gun caused the gun to go red, the turret to go yellow, and the tracks to go lime.

Hit to rear turret destroyed the vehicle.

Hit to the rear turret caused the turret to go deep orange, the gun to go lime, a track to go lime and the engine to go orange.

Hit to side turret caused the turret to go yellow and one track to go red.

Hit to the side turret caused teh turret to go orange, the gun to go orange, and a track to go lime.

Couldn't replicate.

I wonder if your rpg-18 rounds were dropping down on to the engine. The engine is just behind and to the right of the turret.

[An Fiach 10]

This thread still alive? Anyone that has ever used an M136 knows that it takes 2 or more to be effective against any type of heavy armor and still, better to call in a Jav or a Hellfire. I think people play games with an overinflated idea of how weapons work or should work. No doubt there are things in the game that aren't correct, but be reasonable.

In so much as what the books say about capabilities, they also said the M-16 A1 was self cleaning and reliable. It took a lot of dead soldiers to correct that.

[max power 21]

This thread still alive? Anyone that has ever used an M136 knows that it takes 2 or more to be effective against any type of heavy armor and still, better to call in a Jav or a Hellfire. I think people play games with an overinflated idea of how weapons work or should work. No doubt there are things in the game that aren't correct, but be reasonable.

In so much as what the books say about capabilities, they also said the M-16 A1 was self cleaning and reliable. It took a lot of dead soldiers to correct that.

The issue is the relative effectiveness of the weapons, not their absolute effectiveness. Thank you anyways for your interest.

[An Fiach 10]

The issue is the relative effectiveness of the weapons, not their absolute effectiveness. Thank you anyways for your interest.

Yes, but unless it has been tested with tools not available to players the evidence is only anecdotal. It has to be repeatable from the same angle and point of impact to determine what the damage should be.

I would guess though that BIS used info for the HEDP warhead instead of the HEAT warhead. Still, no one shot kills for RPG-18 in my game and damage from both seems to be inconsistent.

[4 IN 1 0]

The only "fix" that M136 needs is to make it true single shot, unreloadable, disposable AT weapon that the AI know how to use without using the stupid trick where the ammo take up 6 normal ammo slot.

[max power 21]

Yes, but unless it has been tested with tools not available to players the evidence is only anecdotal. It has to be repeatable from the same angle and point of impact to determine what the damage should be.

I don't think it's necessary to do these tests with the precision you think we need. Still, someone in this thread wrote a mission with some tools to tell how many global damage points were taken per hit. I'm sure someone could write a script to capture a shell in flight and transport it to exactly the same place in space every time. We can build any tool necessary. Hell, I'm sure that I, without any ArmA scripting experience and only some very rudimentary other scripting experience, could figure out how to make these tools in a reasonable time frame.

I would guess though that BIS used info for the HEDP warhead instead of the HEAT warhead. Still, no one shot kills for RPG-18 in my game and damage from both seems to be inconsistent.

An indirect hit zone of 1.1 doesn't sound like HEDP to me.

[galzohar 31]

Yeah, 1.1 doesn't even sound like a HEAT... Even HEAT round should probably hurt people further than 1.1 meters.

[kklownboy 43]

Yes, but unless it has been tested with tools not available to players the evidence is only anecdotal. It has to be repeatable from the same angle and point of impact to determine what the damage should be.

I would guess though that BIS used info for the HEDP warhead instead of the HEAT warhead. Still, no one shot kills for RPG-18 in my game and damage from both seems to be inconsistent.

A track is a kill... everytime with a rpg18 on any armor in A2. At any angle, if i hit the track its red, red=dead.

[whisper 0]

Different from M136 how? Same behavior on both launchers

Thing is, with the low speed of RPG18, you his tracks more often

[An Fiach 10]

A track is a kill... everytime with a rpg18 on any armor in A2. At any angle, if i hit the track its red, red=dead.

See, I'm not getting those results, I line up multiples of armor types and put an ammo box for both rocket types, fire them then go inspect the damage. The inconsistency tells me that either flight patterns effect the point of impact enough to cause a discrepancy in damages or these weapons are not performing properly at all. :confused:

[Deadfast 43]

Because we all know that shouting made-up "facts" is much better than actual data here is some useless data to ignore :D

//Part name: damage

M136:
----------------------------
: 0.671308
motor: 1.62
?: 0
pas_l: 0.915242
pas_p: 2.38609
commander light: 0.018075
gunner light: 0
l svetlo: 0
p svetlo: 0
vez: 0.0154293
----------------------------
: 0.688634
motor: 1.59968
?: 0
pas_l: 1.00909
pas_p: 1.95665
commander light: 0.0182434
gunner light: 0
l svetlo: 0
p svetlo: 0
vez: 0.0156753
----------------------------
: 0.693199
motor: 1.59671
?: 0
pas_l: 0.826489
pas_p: 1.84357
commander light: 0.0190299
gunner light: 0
l svetlo: 0
p svetlo: 0
vez: 0.0161495




RPG-18
----------------------------
: 0.564843
motor: 1.33544
?: 0
pas_l: 0.892462
pas_p: 1.40138
commander light: 0.0129419
gunner light: 0
l svetlo: 0
p svetlo: 0
vez: 0.0112341
----------------------------
: 0.550364
motor: 1.34241
?: 0
pas_l: 0.886115
pas_p: 1.74006
commander light: 0.0124351
gunner light: 0
l svetlo: 0
p svetlo: 0
vez: 0.0107756
----------------------------
: 0.53615
motor: 1.35454
?: 0
pas_l: 0.924103
pas_p: 2.07253
commander light: 0.012145
gunner light: 0
l svetlo: 0
p svetlo: 0
vez: 0.010612

The test vehicle was the BMP3. Distance was exactly 50 meters from the center of the vehicle and the rockets were fired from behind to hit the rear in the middle.

[An Fiach 10]

Yeah, 1.1 doesn't even sound like a HEAT... Even HEAT round should probably hurt people further than 1.1 meters.

It does IRL. The spalling alone would kill someone.

---------- Post added at 12:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:34 PM ----------

Because we all know that shouting made-up "facts" is much better than actual data here is some useless data to ignore :D

//Part name: damage

M136:
----------------------------
: 0.671308
motor: 1.62
?: 0
pas_l: 0.915242
pas_p: 2.38609
commander light: 0.018075
gunner light: 0
l svetlo: 0
p svetlo: 0
vez: 0.0154293
----------------------------
: 0.688634
motor: 1.59968
?: 0
pas_l: 1.00909
pas_p: 1.95665
commander light: 0.0182434
gunner light: 0
l svetlo: 0
p svetlo: 0
vez: 0.0156753
----------------------------
: 0.693199
motor: 1.59671
?: 0
pas_l: 0.826489
pas_p: 1.84357
commander light: 0.0190299
gunner light: 0
l svetlo: 0
p svetlo: 0
vez: 0.0161495




RPG-18
----------------------------
: 0.564843
motor: 1.33544
?: 0
pas_l: 0.892462
pas_p: 1.40138
commander light: 0.0129419
gunner light: 0
l svetlo: 0
p svetlo: 0
vez: 0.0112341
----------------------------
: 0.550364
motor: 1.34241
?: 0
pas_l: 0.886115
pas_p: 1.74006
commander light: 0.0124351
gunner light: 0
l svetlo: 0
p svetlo: 0
vez: 0.0107756
----------------------------
: 0.53615
motor: 1.35454
?: 0
pas_l: 0.924103
pas_p: 2.07253
commander light: 0.012145
gunner light: 0
l svetlo: 0
p svetlo: 0
vez: 0.010612

The test vehicle was the BMP3. Distance was exactly 50 meters from the center of the vehicle and the rockets were fired from behind to hit the rear in the middle.

What is the first number in each set of results?

[Deadfast 43]

The part has no name (empty string), probably the general body area.

[whisper 0]

It's the global armor taking hit

Global > 0.9 == vehicle kill, but nothing before that

Vehicle part hit == specific effects for this part are happening. Can't move anymore, can't move canon, explodes (motor > 0.9 for example) after a few seconds, etc...

[kklownboy 43]

See, I'm not getting those results, I line up multiples of armor types and put an ammo box for both rocket types, fire them then go inspect the damage. The inconsistency tells me that either flight patterns effect the point of impact enough to cause a discrepancy in damages or these weapons are not performing properly at all. :confused:

on a mod free vanilla 1.05 or 1.05.6beta?