Default Loadout

[ACPL Jon 68]

I find it bad.

MAIN PROBLEMS:

- NOT ENOUGH AMMO

- Misplanned equipment selection

- M136

- Missing gun classes

WHAT SHOULD'VE BEEN CHANGED:

- Every soldier should have around 2 more magazines, also by removing unnecessary grenades (Vanilla A2 - M136 operator have 5 mags and a grenade... guess who's ammo ends first, when other slots is just M136 rocket).

- Colored Smoke Nades instead of HE in Team Leaders equipment. I have NEVER seen anyone using it, I never used it too, and it's just pretty annoying when You have to change the loadout every, single, time just to have a reason to switch to M203 during the fight.

- Mentioned M136 ammo should only take up to 2-3 slots. It'd end the first reported problem for M136 operator.

- Engineers should have more mines. 2 are pretty useless, and giving him grenades is not a good excuse

- You should be able to load M4, M16, etc with C-Mag. Also the silenced variants (then we finally have silenced AR, without hitting the realism).

- Silenced mags should work in a regular, non-silenced weapon.

WHAT I, AND OTHER PEOPLE, MISS:

- M4 ACOG (without M203)

- M4 ACOG SD (same)

- MK12 SD

- M249 & RPK74 RCO

- M240 RCO

and until someone discovers America for me, I want to tell everybody, that:

YES, I KNOW about the ability to change the weapons in the editor\scripts and

YES, I KNOW about the ability to rearm at ammoboxes or briefing

it's just that it takes so much damn time to rearm (in editor or by ammoboxes) whole squad just so it doesn't need the ammo truck after first firefight, and it'd be nice, if BIS could correct the equipment in the nearest patch, just so we can just use standard classes equipment. It'd really help.

Please fix it, BIS.

Edited January 5, 2010 by JonPL

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Sorry, but I have to disagree about much stuff here.

Not enough ammo is a mission designers responsibility. Not once did I ever run out of ammo in the default campaign. In new EW mission, lack of ammo is part of the challenge.

Misplanned equipment selection where? Most of the time you don't get to choose anything.

M136 should be single shot to avoid spamming with it. If ACE method is not implemented (they should really consider it) for single shot launcher, keeping the 6 slot ammo is the only way to restrict it to single shot capability. Use the SMAW if you want more, or carry additional M136 "ammo" in vehicles.

Agree with most weapons classes, but I'm not sure how well the RCO works with M249 and M240 (different bullet drop). I find some 3.5x ACOG scopes for M249 though.

Two mines is all you can carry. And then it's one in each hand. I was combat engineer. We did a lot of explosives work, but never any AP mines, only those damned heavy AT ones. Any more mines are stored in the truck.

The C-Mag exploit is why I never use G36 etc as a "weapon family", hence I don't have to worry about "cheating people". Players are already shooting their M4s without second thought to heat and barrel problems. Giving them C-Mag is nuts. You also suggest silencers for automatic weapons? Players don't know how to restrict themselves to have such a thing ingame (silencers heats up like crazy).

I'm happy with the loadout (except M203 Fireteam Leader could have some marker smoke, I agree, but not the grenadier, so...), and everyone will have their preferred loadouts that will differ from yours and mine. If you know how to edit, then why don't you edit the missions you play? Yes it takes a long time, currently on my 2nd day of equipping my small platoon with ACE equipment (for a realism based Domination edit), and I'm not even half finished. And no, there won't be much to choose from for each role (heavily enforced), that's part of the challenge :)

I'm hoping that with OA and it's IR system, the Mk12 SPR will have a IR scope option as the only 5.56 based weapon, giving meaning to the words Special Purpose. Today it has no "special purpose" in terms of gaming.

I'm playing Domination a lot, usually as AR or MG. The only things I really put in my rucksack are extra smoke grenades unless serious play. With serious play, I rarely change the loadout. For regular riflemen types, consider only the six first slots as ammo slots. For heavier stuff, consider that you usually have a helper or two (in games I've never seen more than one helper, as ammo bearer and assistant gunner are easily merged). Don't expect to do everything by your own.

[galzohar 31]

I do agree that the default BIS loadouts are pretty messed up for some of the classes, that's why I never use any of them (except for AI but only because it doesn't really matter for them if they have a few extra mags or a nicer sight). When you think about it, though, every mission maker will be modeling a different unit/situation/whatever in his mission and thus no matter what BIS does the default loadouts will probably still be unsuitable for the missions. I do wish they'd fix the extra-stupid stuff like "only 4 5.56 mags for AT specialists", and wish they'd make it easier to change loadouts in the editor and/or in scripts, as right now there are a crapload of issues that need to be worked around if you want your loadout script to work reliably, be it in a respawn or no-respawn mission.

[ACPL Jon 68]

Sorry, but I disagree with Your disagreement.

Not enough ammo is a mission designers responsibility. Not once did I ever run out of ammo in the default campaign. In new EW mission, lack of ammo is part of the challenge.

That's great - but then again, it doesn't have to be mine, or any other MM responsibility. They can just fix it so there's no problem using BIS classes instead of rearming every f#cking playable or Team-AI unit in the mission, which is: annoying, frustrating (I came across a great idea having silenced M4 with C-Mag as AR so the Recon Teams isn't lacking that much of a firepower - and guess what happened, even tho in comref my friend gave me C-Mag suits M4? Not talking about... hmmm... reality?) and time-consuming.

Misplanned equipment selection where? Most of the time you don't get to choose anything.

I'm talking about what BIS chose to be the "standard".

M249's have usually equipped Elcan sight afair, that why I wrote RCO instead of just "ACOG".

Now Carl, make up Your mind. You want realism (only 2 mines!) or not (don't give ppl ability to load M4 with C-mag) I dunno if I understand You good, but You said "No C-Mags for guns coz' ppl don't understand gun heats up too fast", right? If so that's one of the most tragic excuses in the reality of (even realistic) gaming. "Don't give us realism, ppl will destroy it!", damn. And I even can understand You in the mines case (I can agree on that), I can't understand Your point about C-mags. It's such a damn silly argument.

FTL can have smoke markers, just give him some HE nades prioritiezed so this M203 itsn't really useless. Yes, I can rearm, but... ####. Just read the first post.

Yes it takes a long time, currently on my 2nd day of equipping my small platoon (...), and I'm not even half finished.

Yay. You just like said... JonPL, You're right. There IS a problem!

And no, there won't be much to choose from for each role (heavily enforced), that's part of the challenge

Great! That's the way You like it. I'd like to build the mission with BIS classes and don't worry that AT gunners will finish their ammo in the first firefight. I don't want spend even HOURS rearming the squad. I want to f#cking play the game, not waste my time needlessly in the editor\scripts making AT slots useful (Without Inko\zGuba Disposable AT's, there's no point in using M136 and public domis on the vanilla game doesn't have this addon...).

I edited every one of my missions. Don't act like "why don't You just edit Your teams loadout?" because THAT'S WHY I B#TCH ABOUT IT.

In terms of realism, squad behind enemy lines doesn't have it's own ammo crates or ammo truck. And... there's so many reasons why they SHOULD FIX IT against Your words "oh come on, it's ok, it's taking second day of my life away but it's really cool, cmon, why You niggle"

Helper or two... well, I didn't played ACE Domis and stuff, because I dislike ACE (first beta was enough for me). So don't act like it's a standard (I hate that kind of attitude), hence there is no "helpers" or "ammo brearers"

Being conservative is ok, if it has a purpose.

When you think about it, though, every mission maker will be modeling a different unit/situation/whatever in his mission and thus no matter what BIS does the default loadouts will probably still be unsuitable for the missions

Yeah, I know. Tho most MM just don't give a shit and use standard BIS classes. And You end up as always...

BIS. PLEASE FIX THESE until there's so many campaigns the best excuse will show up - "there's so many campaigns, changing standard classes can destroy their missions, so no".

Edited January 5, 2010 by JonPL

[galzohar 31]

Implementing something that gives a realistic advantage without also implementing its realistic disadvantage is a very bad thing, and happens way too much in this game. For example, c-mags are known to be problematic in terms of reliability and M4s are not designed to be used as machineguns, which is why c-mags are not used in M4s (usually). Unless the realistic disadvantages of c-mags are implemented, there is nothing good about allowing you to use them. Again, this goes for many features both included in this game (ex: heavy weapons that behave the same as a paintball gun other than giving the player a slightly slower turning speed) as well as ones that aren't but people keep asking for.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Now Carl, make up Your mind. You want realism (only 2 mines!) or not (don't give ppl ability to load M4 with C-mag) I dunno if I understand You good, but You said "No C-Mags for guns coz' ppl don't understand gun heats up too fast", right? If so that's one of the most tragic excuses in the reality of (even realistic) gaming.

You already seem to agree that 2 mines are about max to carry. As for the rest, see galzohar's answer above. My reasons for not using them:

* Not commonly used on assault rifles because of their problems.

* Not visible on the rifle model to "catch cheaters", automatic riflemen (which would normally get them) giving them to regular riflemen. Exploit removed!

* Assault rifles are NOT light machineguns.

* As a regular rifleman you wouldn't have the pouches to carry C-Mags.

As for time to setup and equip a squad/platoon. It doesn't take very long if you already know what you want. With vanilla Arma it is very easy since capabilities are so "equal". But I have to resort to ACE to obtain the balance and playability I want, and attempt to make each role have its pros and cons. Now things gets "a little more complicated", with some rifles not having flashlights and/or silencers, or others being modified versions but not having the ACE_ class labelling, or some showing up with equal names, or some using this scope and others that scope. It's a bloody mess, but I'm finished now. The guys will only have 2-5 gun setups to choose from, and no guns will respawn. Although based on "Domination Code", it's gameplay will differ greatly. Expect far less convenience scripts in use, and more into the realm of clos(er) infantry battles. Limited resources. More realism without going all the way to hardcore. Still a long way though.

But...

I dislike ACE (first beta was enough for me).

I guess you won't be playing it since it involves realism instead of convenience :)

FTL can have smoke markers, just give him some HE nades prioritiezed so this M203 itsn't really useless. Yes, I can rearm, but... ####. Just read the first post.

Not sure why you are repeating this one. I was agreeing, wasn't I? :confused:

there's no point in using M136 and public domis on the vanilla game doesn't have this addon...

Why not? Unless my role actually have that SMAW, I never (well, rarely, unless I'm solo) pick it up. The SMAW and sniping availability (and amount of armor to fight), is one of the biggest realism killers in this mission (using default settings, which nobody seems to change). Even if missions allows certain exploits, doesn't mean that you are forced into using them?

Having the M136 ammo several slots big is the only way to prevent it being exploited. You don't get to use any "practice shots", and the shot becomes more risky. Usually when I was M136 rifleman, the M136 would only be used in self defense. Always hope there is something else that can engage the nasty stuff when you're infantry. It has a drawback as well as a potential, forcing players to choose what they value most. It allows a fair quantity of them without causing everyone to become tank killers. That's for heavier stuff.

I came across a great idea having silenced M4 with C-Mag as AR so the Recon Teams isn't lacking that much of a firepower

Yep, great idea indeed :rolleyes:

[galzohar 31]

Having the M136 ammo several slots big is the only way to prevent it being exploited. You don't get to use any "practice shots", and the shot becomes more risky. Usually when I was M136 rifleman, the M136 would only be used in self defense. Always hope there is something else that can engage the nasty stuff when you're infantry. It has a drawback as well as a potential, forcing players to choose what they value most. It allows a fair quantity of them without causing everyone to become tank killers. That's for heavier stuff.

That's exactly why it is pointless to carry an M136 in domination games that don't have ACE2. In fact in domination it's pointless to not carry a long range rifle and a SMAW with several rockets (plus whatever you can fit in the backpack), as you will never really get tired when you spawn right by the objective at the mobile respawn, and you do need to destroy quite a bit of armor and do get enemy contacts at pretty long distances.

Of course if you want to make things harder on yourself even though the mission allows you to do things in an easier fashion, nobody is going to stop you, but many people would feel silly doing it. I don't really like re-balancing other people's missions so that they are challenging to me - if I don't like the level of challenge a mission provides I'm just moving on to play a different one (unless it can be fixed very easily, which is not the case in domination - sure you can do a lot with it, but turning it into something I'd enjoy playing just isn't going to happen, as I much prefer more realistic and shorter missions with no respawns/revives).

I try to keep my missions as realistic as possible and then keeping them also short and random so that they can be re-played without being predictable (and more importantly so I can actually play them myself without knowing what the enemy is doing), and not only I don't use revive/respawns, I don't even use the first aid system. I'm considering to even remove the medic because of how unrealistic it is to just heal people like that.

[ACPL Jon 68]

I guess you won't be playing it since it involves realism instead of convenience

GBFSE (Go Be Fanboy Somewhere Else) ;) I loved the first (A1) ACE.

Let's leave my ACE2 phobia (no, not the installer thing), let's focus on the rest:

Not sure why you are repeating this one. I was agreeing, wasn't I?

About the TL's - yes, but it doesn't look like You agree about the rest... except

Yes it takes a long time, currently on my 2nd day of equipping my small platoon (...), and I'm not even half finished.

...but I guess it wasn't intentional :D

You already seem to agree that 2 mines are about max to carry

I never carried any mines in reality (except rubber claymore, lol), so if You served and we want to go in realism (as always I like to limit it to the place where it'd destroy the game), yes, You are right.

And ok, let's say You convinced me about the c-mags, but than again - You didn't convinced me about M136.

In fact in domination it's pointless to not carry a long range rifle and a SMAW with several rockets

We need to get rid of the ONLY RIGHT SETUP.

Normally I wouldn't be bitchin' about it that much (the M136 thingy - standard loadout are a bitch whether You like it or not), I've got the excellent Disposable AT's script (and few others mods that makes this game the way it should be), but like I said... most evo\domi servers are vanilla, and not always I have a free friend to go with. Usually there's no cooperation with foreigners on the server so I'm left alone with... one right setup.

And with that amount of ATs around it looks like a friggin Quake3.

[galzohar 31]

I agree that it's a problem, but you really can't blame the players for it, but rather the server that is running this kind of mission.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

@galzohar: What's hard about activating limited weapons and no backpack in mission parameters on mission startup? You might want to reduce armor though while you're there, since SMAW and AT4 (I disagree on AT4 being in limited supply by default though) are hard to get to. Doesn't work with ACE version though.

My edit goes way beyond that though, and the reason it took so much time was I'm trying to have some variery and restrictions that "makes sense to me", and to have believable amounts of ammo in the crates.

...but I guess it wasn't intentional

Any defaults wouldn't have helped. And that amount of work also includes every item (about half of what ACE provides, some defaults) that is available in each crate (7 crates pluss the respawnable/droppable ammo crate) for each player (currently co@34 with 19 unique slots). Default loadout? Main weapon and 2-4 mags, compass and watch - that's it, that's what you "wake up with". Anything else? Visit the armory or mission preparation area, call it "your personal locker" if you want.

Mentioned M136 ammo should only take up to 2-3 slots.

I've got the excellent Disposable AT's script

If vanilla launchers were truly disposable, then sure, whatever, I don't really care. But 2 slots while reloadable like vanilla, no way! The 6 slot ammo seems like a workaround for AT4 spamming, and it works! I can restrict SMAW to two guys, and have AT4 for many more. If SMAW guys are not available, you have to use AT4s instead. Having it 6 slots makes sure not everyone even wants to carry one.

Usually there's no cooperation with foreigners on the server so I'm left alone with... one right setup.

And I bet that "one" setup is nowhere near realistic. The default loadouts should appear realistic, and not be adjusted to suit multiplayer games that suffer from bad teamwork. That stuff is up to mission designer if he wants to (me), or make a crate with everything (public mainstream missions).

Btw, my edit of Domination won't "work" as a public game at all, due to problems with bad teamwork. Also, you need to fill certain "key roles" in order to be able to solve the missions without heavy penalties. Forget earplugs, GPS, satchels and sniper rifles for everyone. Forget unlimited ammo, but usually you can team up with someone in order to have an ammobearer/assistant gunner if you want more. Forget respawnable weapons, if you change to enemy weapon you pay the price, all up to you.

With the way Arma2 "plays out", I have to disagree with disabling the medic. Meaning that you can take a bullet to your armor without being "hurt" (decommissioned), or how vehicle occupants inherits vehicle damage. Highly unrealistic as well not to have some means of fixing this. With ACE Medic Tents being loaded with every medical item, everyone becomes his own medic. So I had to remove them as well. My medics (ACE) are the only ones who gets (limited) access to morphine and epinephrine, and even my own guys are complaining like mad about this. Hopefully the new system (worked on) will improve the situation, because in ACE now, the medic is of little use unless you try to find every possible exploit and avoid it.

you will never really get tired when you spawn right by the objective at the mobile respawn, and you do need to destroy quite a bit of armor and do get enemy contacts at pretty long distances.

That happens in ACE version too. It depends highly on the server though. Most players tend to put MHQ in the enemy front yard without thinking. When server clan folks are around, they usually take charge of the MHQ placing it much farther away. I'm considering an ACE invisible armor target hovering over the MHQ while it is empty ;)

Consider a "realistic approach" using gained assets from side missions and a coordinated attack:

1) If already detected, wait until attack choppers and planes arrive and eliminate this threat before continuing.

2) Marksmen and SMAW gunners (HEDP) take out AA Pods and groups of AA Patrols. A Javelin takes out Shilka threats. Artillery smoke enroute to cover the assault teams approach to close covered positions.

3) Aerial assets pop up and attack armored targets. Not SMAW, not M136. Air support and tanks rule this phase.

4) Machinegunners keep responding infantry busy from out far.

5) Close assault teams can engage these as they pass them by.

6) Have a team ready to assault the tower, and reinforcements won't be a problem.

I've played default Domination with a structured plan (TG), and you can basically do main targets with its insane amounts of armor, without casualties if done right. As usual, any plan won't survive first contact, but... :) It tends to work better (for obvious reasons) than what typically takes place on an unstructured public server.

Edited January 8, 2010 by CarlGustaffa

[tcp 10]

Good look getting BIS to change the default weapons, in the mean time, changing loadout by script is actually very easy.

You can check out my script here.

[galzohar 31]

The thing is, in domination no matter what you do you simply can't lose by mission design, so why bother doing anything in any way that's different from "the fastest way possible"? Unless you're into role-playing, but in which case we just don't enjoy the same stuff.

You can edit domination all you want and greatly increase its realism, but you'll never get a true realistic experience out of it, especially if you're not into role playing. Domination is simply not designed for that - it is designed to be something you can throw on a public server and let it run with people joining/dropping out consistently while keeping the mission running as intended.

Note that by "role playing" I mean "doing things because they're more realistic/cool/interesting even though they're not the most effective way to complete the mission". I don't really like this kind of play, I expect the mission designer to take care of realism for me and leave me to just find the best way to beat his mission with the tools he gave me. But unfortunately it seems like many (most?) mission designers don't really worry about balance in their missions, which then forces you to either "roleplay it" to increase realism/challenge if it's too easy, or in case it's too hard "exploit everything unrealistic in it" so you actually might have a chance to complete it.

[ACPL Jon 68]

Didn't had the patience to read all of Your stuff (some other time, as I mentioned sometime before I hate replying to A4 posts), so I'll just tell You: Guys, wake up. A2 isn't just Domination...

[CarlGustaffa 4]

@galzohar: I thought you were into realism. "Roleplay" is for me a big part of realism. In all the hardcore games I've played (not that many, I admit), limited weapons selection has forced me into "roleplaying" my character: If I pick a SAW gunner, the SAW is all I get. It takes away the possibility to solve a mission "the fastest way possible", as I'm forced to wait for others to eliminate threats I can't deal with.

Early Dominatrix had "mission lose capability" on the personal level. You were simply unable to respawn once you've depleted all your lives. You'd gain a life for every four revive you did though and you didn't loose a life if revived, but your starting lives depended on how many targets was left to do when you joined (4 lives per remaining targets iirc). But, you could always rejoin and loose your score. A two minute respawn time forced most people into playing more safe, as respawning was "annoyingly long" :)

[galzohar 31]

I want realism but I don't want to have to think about "but wait, if I do X that won't be realistic" every time I play. If someone made an unrealistic mission, either I play it the way he made it (aka unrealistically), or if it's too unrealistic just move on to the next mission or make my own mission. I don't even bother to play missions with revive anymore, it's just not "it". I even don't put any first aid modules in my missions either. Of course I make the challenge level realistic and appropriate for not having any respawns/revives/first aid revives.

Increasing respawn time may make people play more realistically, but it's still just adding an unrealistic annoyance factor rather than actually adding realism. I don't get why everyone are so stuck on playing nothing other than domination. Domination is made to run on public servers and work with any number of players of any skill level and let them play in any way they want, and while that's great for some, it's simply not what you should be willing to play if you're into realism, no matter how much you modify it.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

2 minute respawn is more annoying than having to wait 30 minutes (as a bird, then planning next mission) due to a freaky accident? And in the next mission I'm suddenly a grenadier instead of SAW gunner? When other people around me behaves in a "safe manner" due to increased respawn times, it enhances my experience by not having to witness rambo rushers.

Dom may have its problems, but so does all the "mainstream public missions". But Dom I find easy to setup to suit more realistic gameplay (via modding, not just setting parameters).

There are many such "annoyance" factors built into the game already (no launcher and heavy weapon, reduced ammo pouches for medic etc). When these are not enough to "control stupid players" (ACE removed all of these, but weight doesn't stop stupid players unfortunately), I feel it natural to do my own controlling. As long as it is kept reasonable, moddable (for other clans to adjust). Many original convenience factors removed, as I think getting to the AO should be just as interesting as the actual fighting. But, more of an infantry mission than heavy hardware (no tanks or air attack vehicles).

[galzohar 31]

You're saying as if the players who carry whatever the game lets them are stupid, while it's not the players that are stupid - the only ones you can call stupid are BIS, the ACE team and/or the people who made the mission. It is not stupid to carry more gear if BIS/ACE team/mission maker let you do that. It may be unrealistic, but it's definitely not stupid.