Mid east

[Frizbee 0]

Even giving the Palenstinians their own state wouldn't stop the suicide bombing against Isreal.

Just take the IRA for example. They started off fighting for independence of Ireland. Now all they would have to do is call a referendum, but they continue (their splinter groups at least) bombing because they've grown accustomed to it.

The only way Isreal will stop the attacks against them, is to destroy all of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, forcing everyone living their into neighbouring countries, and initiating strict check points around the border, using force if necessary to keep all unwanted people out of the country.

[scout 0]

couple of things:

1. Oligo: there is a feeling in israel, not quite new, that the scandinavian countries,well, dont really understand the situation but hurry to pass quick judgment, after hearing several ministers, especially from denmark and Norway, its kinda made things unpleasent.

in the case of france, i didnt say it is the view of the general public but we dont see any action the government of france did other then condemn the attacks, u didnt see any jews burning mousqes in france after suicide bombing, did you?

with france any way its quite a long story ever since 1965.

2. longinius: well, not surprising i have couple of other fact that disagree with most of what u've said (if u want me i can  tell u what they are) not surprising, doesnt it? what i know comes from the people i know that are there now.

3. i saw on the BBC an interview today with an official of ours.

the interviewer started with the word:" it seems that PM Sharon added another massacre to his long list of such act, didnt he?"

what do you expect him to answer? that was rude, and strengthen the feeling that we're mistreated, hell, he just put him on the stand, didnt he? i've never seen any palestinian official treated that way after any suicide bombing. and u wonder why we're complaining about the attitude of certain new agencies?

edit: anyway, i've been working all night and now is time to sleep. good night everry one!

[Longinius 1]

"2. longinius: well, not surprising i have couple of other fact that disagree with most of what u've said (if u want me i can tell u what they are) not surprising, doesnt it? what i know comes from the people i know that are there now."

By all means share those facts.

[Major Fubar 0]

I can't speak on behalf of European countries, but I can tell you what the feeling is in my homeland.

Until recently, the conflict was viewed as "the good Jews" vs. "the evil Arabs". I also get the feeling many Western nations felt the same. But the war has gotten so bloody lately, and Isael showing such a determination to exterminate the entire Palestinian presence in the area, that the feelings are starting to turn.

When I was growing up, I was always influenced by the media that Muslims we're inherrently evil. Just look at 95% of action movies featuring Arabs, depicting them as selfish, terrorists, whose only goal is to kill as many innocent people as possible. But recently (and strangely enough, moreso after September 11), I have taken a more mature view of these people. The people who committed the September 11 atrocity deserve execution, no question, but you can hardly hold that against an entire race/religion.

Also, Israel was the USAs friendly "foot in the door" in the Middle East, which also biased most Western nations towards Israel. The fact that public opinion is starting to turn should be some sort of indicator that the world thinks Israel is going too far, that they are commiting massacre for a piece of real estate.

I'm the first to admit that not living in the area, I don't have as much knowledge on the conflict as somone who does. But then again, anyone who does live in the area is going to be biased one way or the other, yes?

My opinion, both sides should be forced by NATO/UN/USA or whatever force is neccesary to stop the bloodshed, sit down and negotiate an agreement, and be enforced to stick to it. It is painfully obvious that at this stage neither Israel or Palestine are going to back down. This may be a simplistic approach, but short of 1 side complete annihilating the other, I can't see any other resolution, when the hatred, vanity and pride of both sides won't allow a peaceful solution.

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Frizbee @ April 12 2002,08:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Even giving the Palenstinians their own state wouldn't stop the suicide bombing against Isreal.

Just take the IRA for example. They started off fighting for independence of Ireland. Now all they would have to do is call a referendum, but they continue (their splinter groups at least) bombing because they've grown accustomed to it.<span id='postcolor'>

A palestinian state would probably not stop the suicide bombings entirely, since there are always some nutjobs left, but it would reduce them to a trickle instead of the flood we have now. You have to remember that the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade which is responsible for most of the current bombings has stated it's goal is to get a state and that's it. Of course they could just be bullshitting people, hard to say. But the other organizations like Hamas have stated directly that their goal is the destruction of Israel. Anyway, once the palestinians have their own state, it's very hard to recruit people to commit suicide. At the moment, recruiting is not hard at all, because they want that state.

[Longinius 1]

"A palestinian state would probably not stop the suicide bombings entirely, since there are always some nutjobs left, but it would reduce them to a trickle instead of the flood we have now. You have to remember that the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade which is responsible for most of the current bombings has stated it's goal is to get a state and that's it. Of course they could just be bullshitting people, hard to say. But the other organizations like Hamas have stated directly that their goal is the destruction of Israel. Anyway, once the palestinians have their own state, it's very hard to recruit people to commit suicide. At the moment, recruiting is not hard at all, because they want that state."

More importantly, if the Palestinians got a nation of their own but continued to bomb, then Israel would without a doubt have the full support of Europe and the US.

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 12 2002,09:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In the case of france, i didnt say it is the view of the general public but we dont see any action the government of france did other then condemn the attacks, u didnt see any jews burning mousqes in france after suicide bombing, did you?

with france any way its quite a long story ever since 1965.<span id='postcolor'>

The French authorities condemned the anti-semitic attacks. Also, the local police is investigating the bombings in order to catch the perpetrators. Then a court of law will judge them to jail if found guilty. What more should a civilized nation do? Bomb the arab neighbourhoods?

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 12 2002,10:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">More importantly, if the Palestinians got a nation of their own but continued to bomb, then Israel would without a doubt have the full support of Europe and the US.<span id='postcolor'>

Exactly.

[foxer 0]

I think it's going take peace keepers from UN/NATO,But the problem with that is no one wants to send them in because they're scared that the peacekeepers will die.

[Hilandor 1]

any group etc that resorts to bombing innocent civilians doesnt deserve to be having talks about a state of their own imo

[second_draw 0]

Giving palestine the land just proves the terrorism & especially suicide bombing will win you a war. Very bad in my opinion

[Oligo 1]

Hah. Do you think somebody would listen to them if they did nothing? The only reason anybody cares about them at all is that they can make some ripples in the water with the suicide bombing. Such is this world.

[second_draw 0]

Don't under estimate land in political issues. Land is a very important to a country especially when you're a small country like isreal. It will take a he11 of alot more than suicide bombing to make isreal give up prized land

[Longinius 1]

"any group etc that resorts to bombing innocent civilians doesnt deserve to be having talks about a state of their own imo"

Most, if not all, established nations have been built on the blood of civilians. Why should this be different?

[Hilandor 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 11 2002,12:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Most, if not all, established nations have been built on the blood of civilians. Why should this be different?<span id='postcolor'>

this is different because we are now in the 21st century, yes i agree with what u say but these things generally took place hundreds of years ago.   basically before people had a vote and a say and there was diplomatic methods to sorting stuff like this out.

and although my history isnt that good, but most lands were won or lost through battles with many hundreds or thousands of soldiers, which could be considered as an organised battle not suicide bombing of innocent civilians in a cafe. I really struggle to see what an explosion on a bus, using nuts and bolts to maime and kill innocent people constitutes a "fight for land"

and also i would have thought that most people realise the death and destruction that a war or battle caused, the reason being now that diplomatic approaches are used nowadays in general with most countries

"Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword" is a damn good quote

and another i heard only the other day was

" and eye for an eye leaves everyone blind"

so damn true

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (second_draw @ April 12 2002,10:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Don't under estimate land in political issues. Land is a very important to a country especially when you're a small country like isreal. It will take a he11 of alot more than suicide bombing to make isreal give up prized land<span id='postcolor'>

Maybe so, but it seems that the palestinians have been so humiliated that they have to use whatever means available to show defiance. It might not get them their country, but at least they get some publicity for their cause.

In desperate situations people use desperate means rather than give up the fight. This has been seen so many times in history and this will continue to happen in the future also. The humiliation of a defeat is worse than suicide for these people.

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hilandor @ April 12 2002,11:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">this is different because we are now in the 21st century, yes i agree with what u say but these things generally took place hundreds of years ago.   basically before people had a vote and a say and there was diplomatic methods to sorting stuff like this out.<span id='postcolor'>

The palestinians have neither vote nor say in the matters. All they can do is shout, throw rocks and suicide bomb.

[Hilandor 1]

i wonder if thats a flaw in the forum board oligos second last answer seem to no appear untill he made his last post, seems to fail to show the a message on a new page untill there is a couple of replies

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hilandor @ April 12 2002,11:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i wonder if thats a flaw in the forum board    oligos second last answer seem to no appear untill he made his last post, seems to fail to show the a message on a new page untill there is a couple of replies<span id='postcolor'>

I notice that sometimes.Fix the forum bugs

[Longinius 1]

"this is different because we are now in the 21st century, yes i agree with what u say but these things generally took place hundreds of years ago. basically before people had a vote and a say and there was diplomatic methods to sorting stuff like this out."

Yes, we invented diplomacy but man is still man. You can wear a fine suit, at the end of the day, you are still human. Humans are driven by emotions like hate, love, greed and fear. Those are stronger than ANY social invention. Laws and diplomacy only exist if someone enforce them, emotions exist wether we want them to or not.

"and although my history isnt that good, but most lands were won or lost through battles with many hundreds or thousands of soldiers, which could be considered as an organised battle not suicide bombing of innocent civilians in a cafe. I really struggle to see what an explosion on a bus, using nuts and bolts to maime and kill innocent people constitutes a "fight for land""

Whenever land has been occupied and people have resisted, civilians have been targeted. There are few exceptions to this fact.

The attacks against civilians have one purpose I reccon; terror. It is a constant reminder that the enemy will not be put down, they have not surrendered and they do not tolerate the occupation of their land. Is it effective? Well, I think the Israelis are scared but it only serves to create retaliations. It would be more efficient to target strictly military outposts and infrastructure.

[second_draw 0]

does this mean:

XX suicide bombs in crowed cafes = XX metres of land?

Yeah, sure we could submit to tatics stated above but as hilandor would say, we are in the 21st century and we as a civilisation are at a point when we can work this out with an alternative.

[Longinius 1]

"Yeah, sure we could submit to tatics stated above but as hilandor would say, we are in the 21st century and we as a civilisation are at a point when we can work this out with an alternative."

Hate to be a party pooper, but obviously not.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ April 12 2002,08:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ April 12 2002,02:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hope you can read at least the numbers. I think Israel is a strong nation, but an escalation and introduction of the other surrounding arabic states would be desasterous!<span id='postcolor'>

Numbers are cool, but the Israeli material is far superior to the arab material. Especially the Israeli air force is top of the line. That means they can attain air superiority and we all know what happens then. You only need to look at the Gulf War.<span id='postcolor'>

Now the Gulf War is not the best example! Air superiority however does NOT change the situation in a great way as you know from the Gulf war or the ethnical conflict in Jugoslawia. Ground superiority is what counts! The Iraq as well as Jugoslawia were bombed back to stone-age but the deciding battles were fought by tanks (or in the case of Jugoslawia by mechanised infantry! But this could still be discussed.

But what could not be discussed, (from a German perspective) is the risk you take when opening a war-front to the South the North and the East at the same time. Technology is not the determining facotr then. Without a Blitzkrieg a situation like this cannot be solved. Since an offensive war (e.g Blitzkrieg) is out of question for Israel I wonder what would happen. But this is going to far

...It is of course assuming the worst escalation of the conflict and the full ignorance of the Western World! I was just making up my little strategic war. Let me start CIV III and try it out!

[Pete 1]

palestinians dont have a army to fight back with, they dont have any chance to build up a army to fight with...israeli troops occupy there territory...what to do?

give up?

nobody can be so naive that one would expect that to happen, every palestinian child born grows up hating these occupying soldiers, he grows up with a dream of having a own nation...but there is absolutely no chance to complete that dream since they have no army, no support (untill now?)..what to do?

suicide bombers...its the poor mans nukes, wrong as they may be, there is no doubt that they are the BEST method palestinians have to fight with..what else could they do?

really....nothing at all.

its the most cruel method of "warfaring" since it hits anyone, anywhere....civilians or soldiers.

im not supporting anyone (blah..i hate to always feel the need to explain this..) but its pretty clear that pals cant mass up a few hundred thousand soldiers, tanks, aircraft and start a regular war and go by the book...

one mans freedom fighter is the other mans terrorist...one nations defenders are the other ones opressors...

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ April 12 2002,15:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Iraq as well as Jugoslawia were bombed back to stone-age but the deciding battles were fought by tanks (or in the case of Jugoslawia by mechanised infantry! But this could still be discussed.<span id='postcolor'>

Uh.. mechanised infantry in Yugoslavia - where on earth did you get that from? The only military action in Yugoslavia was the bombing. The decing step was the bombing of civilian infrastructures (power plants, bridges, government buildings, TV-stations) which led to that the local support for Milosevics Kosovo-campaign vanished. I guess you get new priorities when you are getting bombed.