Mid east

[scout 0]

no i cant.

i know though that the people there are doing the best to avoid doing too much trouble. most of them have families and are more sedate then the regulars.

but what would u do when there is a PK shooting at u from a hospital window? it happened to me the last time i was there and i talked to my cousin today and he said that the tanzim guys were taking cover behind a news car! they had to charge there without shootin so not to hurt the news crew! which ofcourse was standing in the midst all the while

[scout 0]

"extremists are in power when the situation is extreme and moderates fail"

do u agree?

8 years, 3 PM's were exchanged, all the while trying to reach a solution.

Sharon rose to power only because enough israelis felt that there is no hope in negotiation.

i believe that if more moderate palestinian leader would've taken place before Oct. 2000 the mess we're in wouldnt exist.

someone said that nor Arafat neither Sharon are suitable to lead now.

i agreed because both of them are stuck in the 60' when they chased each other.

but the only way sharon would rise is if enough israelis would believe that there is no hope of peace. and it took 8 years to change it.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 10 2002,11:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">no i wont, okay?

today im going to the funerals of 15 friends of mine who are dead because we didnt want to hit civvies, so u wouldnt say:

"u r massacaring civvies, how dare u!!!!!!"

so these guys went inside.

and u still saying that.

if we didnt care about civilian casualties we would just drop some napalm or something.

dont U DARE GIVING ME THAT!

edit: when an ambulance it transporting weapons and terrorists it cease to be an ambulance.

and YES, we do treat civvies when we can. the medics that treated our wounded in jenin treated also about 25 palestinians. but that i guess u wont hear.<span id='postcolor'>

What you are calling terrorists might have been terrorists in the past. Now I think they are just angry demoralised by proud palestinians defending against an occupation. Now when someone shoots at you with a Kalaschnikow because you drive with your tank through their houses, THEN DONT YOU dare telling us what these people need to be called. If the french would run through our roads and occupy us (which the french would never do, cause we have a great relationship) because german terrorist blow up their civillians, I would take a gun too! That does not make me terrorist, nor does it mean that I support what those terrorists do! I would no longer be a civillian, that is clear, but definetly far away from a terrorist, rather an ordianry "la resistance"

I like discussions, and I willing to see everything from 2 perspectives! But noone should ask for more sympathy as long as 2 sides are suffering!

[scout 0]

Albert: most of these "self protectors" are people that have killed for the past years scores of israelis, civilians mostly, by sending suicide bombers.

most of these are people that wont accept any sort of agreement, those in jenin are the hardcore of the Islamic Jihad, an organization that is sworn to the distruction of israel since the mid '70.

contrary to what u belive they didnt start fightin the past week but more then 10 years ago.

edit: and i dont wish for a specail sympathy, but if u accuse me in intentionaly killing civvies, u better have somthing to base it upon!

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

But how can you know! Do you know how hard it is to find a terrorist? Ask the CIA! But now with tanks you seem to find a hundred per day! How? do they wear tatoos like the Japanese mafia. Do they have different guns than the ordinary teenager who thinks he needs to defend his country? Do they live in yellow houses? If Israel would have an intelligent satelite system I would admit that there are ways indeed to oversee the whole West-bank and Gaza-strip and pre-chose targets. But right now you cant tell me that you are aiming your machine guns at anyone that wears a gun or is around 19 years and runing over the street where he shouldnt! It makes no reasonable sense!

(your secret service has an excellent reputation in terms of proffesionalism, no doubt about that! But there is a limit of tasks such an organisation can fullfill)

[scout 0]

contrary to your belief staelites arent worth a damn without HUMINT.

we know where they are from very hard work our intel is doin.

till now we passed intel to the PA so it could act  accordingly, didnt do any good.

so we know where to look. some of them tend to shoot back, most surrendered.

now it a kid would run with a gun he jepordizes himself, there is no doubt, but most of them decided not to fight, and many terrorists that we KNOW that killed israelis also surrenderd.

we dont have capital punishment, even to those who killed scores (except to nazis who are known to have been responsible to scores of death)

edit: there is a booklet called the "LOTTERY" it has description of hundreds of known terrorists.

the CIA to answer your question, has much difficult task: he need to search world wide while it hasn't enough HUMINT.

even the ex-KGB has now more of these assets

[scout 0]

u want to know how good is our intel?

it manages to stop 85% of the attackers! 85%

every attack u hear thats successful there are 4-5 that are stopped before arriving to their targets! those u never hear of. even in israel u cant hear about most unless ur connected to the military

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

My doubts remain, but your points were definetly worth saying (and for me to read them). I'll see what other people will post in this thread.

BTW: 85% would be a great result for open borders, but maybe not so great when you consider the amount of checkpoints, the amount of no-go areas and roads for palestinians and the terminated working permission for palestinians employed in Israel). The DDR (ugly communistic East Germany) prevented nearly 100% of people trying to cross the border illegaly!

[Gorgi Knootewoot 0]

The End

[Satchel 0]

If the means of sparing civillians would be an overall valid course of the IDF, Helicopter Gunships and Fighter jets are surely not the appropiate tool to fight "war against terrorism" and conduct surgical operations, to get those conducting terror and have palestinian bystanders/civillians in safety.

It´s like trying to cure headdaches with cutting the head of, whats happening here is basically revenge of even greater sort and level as palestinian terrorists conduct them, no better.

Just saw a TV news coverage of a german humanitarian worker, trying to get with his ambulance into Ramallah to aid wounded palestinians. Every IDF checkpoint he came through he feared for his life, as one wrong move, one word said could have been the cause for the IDF shooting on him.

And so it happened later, just some hundred metres before the refugee camp he, and the german reporter that acompanied him were shot at by an Israeli patrol. They could only safe their lifes by sprinting into a palestinian housing, that was surrounded quickly by the patrol, demanding them to come out. Although they were shouting again and again that they are germans, the situation didn´t calm down. After 15min they came out and tried to talk to the Israelis, that said afterwards those shots fired had been only warning shots...quite some unique warning shots if projectiles impact right next to you. Maybe this is why so many palestinians had been shot dead, all strucked down by warning shots.

Just in case you are wondering, the ambulance was lettered correctly on all sides with the big lettered word "AMBULANCE".

Afterwards the 2 germans went to an IDF spokesman in that area, to ask him about the incident.

The IDF guy said (in german language) that he expects the germans to behave like visitors, sticking to Israeli rules if they visit ISRAELI! territory (oops), afterall the germans would expect the same of him if he came to germany.

The humanitarian worker replied, thats it´s occupied palestinian territory he was driving through, not Israeli.

The IDF guy was embarrased at this this reply, and switched immediately to english language, telling him that he is not allowed to do such comments.

As the situation was obviously developing between the 2 germans and the IDF guy, no further questions were asked.

To me it clearly looks the IDF is conducting a harsh policy of intimidation towards journalists, and those trying to help the palestinian people as this is not a single case but one of many.

In the occupied territorys housings were shown that had been flattened by Israeli Bulldozers and palestinans that had been deprived of their passports, that were either taken away or destroyed during IDF controls.

[KingBeast 0]

In the West Bank, witnesses say Israeli bulldozers are destroying homes in Jenin and people have been ordered to leave.

Fighting between Israeli troops and Palestinian gunmen in the Jenin refugee camp has been the fiercest in Israel's latest military operation.

Israel says 150 Palestinians died in Jenin but Palestinians say the number is far higher.

The Israeli army said 28 members of its security forces were killed during the operation, including the 13 killed in Tuesday's ambush.

About 200 Palestinians, some of them armed, had surrendered in Jenin, according to Israeli sources. Palestinian sources said the chief of the Islamic Jihad group there, Mahmud Tawalbeh, had been killed.

And since the latest hamas suicide bombing, Israel have announced that there wil lbe no more withdrawals from occupied areas.

Now sharon is directly disobeying Bush. But what will come of it?

[KingBeast 0]

Raar stupid post isnt showing up

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ April 10 2002,15:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Now sharon is directly disobeying Bush. But what will come of it?<span id='postcolor'>

The question is what Bush really can do about it. I guess that sanctions against Israel are always possible, but that will hardly help the Palestinians. Actually any action the US can take has long term effects, while the current attacks are a short term issue. Armed intervention is out of the question, even as a UN peacekeeping force. Israel would never agree to that.

Besides, the current US administration is very split on the Israel issue. You have the moderates with Powell in the lead who are pro peace and you have the hawks (Cheney and Rumsfeld) who are pro Israel. Bush himself - who knows? He probably doesn't want to care.

There is an interesting article at time.com about the problems of taking a stand on the Israel question:

Better Late then Never

It starts a bit like shameless propaganda, but it gets better.

[Bart.Jan 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ April 10 2002,11:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What you are calling terrorists might have been terrorists in the past. Now I think they are just angry demoralised by proud palestinians defending against an occupation. Now when someone shoots at you with a Kalaschnikow because you drive with your tank through their houses, THEN DONT YOU dare telling us what these people need to be called. If the french would run through our roads and occupy us (which the french would never do, cause we have a great relationship)  because german terrorist blow up their civillians, I would take a gun too! That does not make me terrorist, nor does it mean that I support what those terrorists do! I would no longer be a civillian, that is clear, but definetly far away from a terrorist, rather an ordianry "la resistance"

...<span id='postcolor'>

Maybe not so appropriate time but definition of terrorist in armed conflict, as I know from Czech Armed Forces, is armed human in civilan clothes. That includes even resistance (partisans,guerillas). Resistance fighters are heroes of their side but they are terrorist for enemy side. Spies (includes enemy in ours or allied uniform) have same status as terrorists.

There are only 4 sides in armed conflict :

1) civilans - they have inviolability

2) your and allied armed forces

3) belligerent - armed forces of enemy and his allies

4) terrorist - (definition above) they have no rights, they can be shoot on sight, when they are captured no tribunal is needed - they can be executed immediately.

(so phraze : WAR against terrorism makes me little dizzy. But it can be beacuse of different English in media and in armed forces)

These are basic existing rules. Reality is something else than rules, there can be some exceptions because of existing conditions . In armed conflict last word has always commander [and your conscience but it can be fatal for you].

edit: definition of terrorist in peace is quite different

[KingBeast 0]

I would actually disagree with that definition that a terrorist is an armed man in civilian clothing.

The whole meaning of terrorism is the use of fear/terror as a weapon.

So a terrorist who uses fear and terror to complete his objectives. This can involve targeting civilians, setting off bombs in the midst of a civilian population etc.

[RedRogue 0]

So by that definition - When I go hunting I am therefore a terrorist because I'm a armed human in civilian clothing...... that makes a whole hell of alot of sense......not.

[KingBeast 0]

He was referring to the definition of a terrorist 'in an armed conflict' but its a pretty general way to label all people that areny military terrorists if they are carrying a weapon.

[Guest SC Jolly]

Has Arafat really done all he can to prevent the actions taken by terrorist groups? To me it looks like it wont be peace as long as Sharon is president (or Arafat for that sake).

A strike against Iraq will only push Saddam to launch his ABC-rockets! I might be young and dumb, but why in Gods name cant there be peace on this earth? Anyone want to join me in the search of a new world??

HMJ

[KingBeast 0]

I think the whoel area would be better off if Sharon and Arafat were taken out of power.

And thats what I worry about, what if when being attacked, sadam in a last ditch effort to have the last laugh launches anything hes got against Israel? That wouldnt be too good. Then maybe israel would want to get the last last laugh, and launch nukes at all of its middle eastern 'friends'

[scout 0]

in Israel there is elections next year, if israeli would believe that there is hope for dialog, a moderate leader would be elected, if this would continue he may be as well reelected.

Arafat on the other hand is a leader for life. he can be desposed of only by force (ours or theirs). and thats the main problem. even if a moderate would be elected he wouldnt last for long if Arafat will hold power.

[KingBeast 0]

The problem is, the majority of Israelis support Sharon. When direct military action is taken, its more noticeable to the public that action is being taken.

And the majority of Palestinians support Arafat, so again with these two feuding warlords in power nothing good is ever going to happen.

[pathfinder 0]

Hmmmm.... Can't we all just get along.... I didn't think so

I can't posssibly know what it's like to be in a place , where I could be targeted by a palestinian sniper or a suicide bomber just by taking my baby for a walk. And I doubt that all but a few people here could. My heart goes out to those here that do.

I used to be so neutral on this subject ,untill 9/11 opened my eyes to the ugly world of terroism. Well befor that day, I saw a young palestinian boy and his father gunned down in a cross fire on TV. I didn't have a party ,and take to the streets and cheer about these two people being hurt.

But minutes after the death and destuction of 9/11, I saw the palestinians giving out candy and celebrating like they all had won the lottery. And the only answer to stop the celebration came from the palestinians uglyass bitch PR women , turn off the cameras and let them celebrate.

Needless to say , If I were president of the U.S ,I would send troops to help the Israelis in what ever they wanted to do.

[KingBeast 0]

Havent we been over this before? The footage shown of palestinians celebrating in the streets and handing out candy was old and completely un-related to the WTC.

And arent you being slightly biased? You are only empathising with the Israelis, why is this?

Do you think the Israelis are angels? No one is

[Pukko 0]

A Swedish 'media criticism' TV program showed the following in september regarding the celebrating Palestinians:

The celebrations by those Palestinians seen on 9/11 were taken the same day, but by a camera team asking (after driving around failing to find any celebrations) some palestinians in a bar and on the street to celebrate in front of the camera someting completely else than the WTC collapsing (I think what they said was related to USA in some way though).

The woman in black seen celbreating waving her arms and making this 'indian shout' was interviewed in this program. She had no TV of her own, but when she saw in what context the pictures on her celebrating was used in media at some friends she felt sick, she said. She had no idea what had happened in the USA when the pictures was taken and was used by media in an awful way.

[Pukko 0]

I found a realplayer clip of it at the program 'Mediemagasinet' homepage at the SVT webbsite. Its mostly in Swedish though:

Click on modem or bredband (broadband) on the 'Historien om en bild' line, 3:rd from top in the right column

The celebrating womans name is Fatma Hussein. She were selling vegetables when the reporters arrived.

The news agencies were Reuter and AP standing shoulder to shoulder taking the pictures.