Mid east

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 06 2003,11:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ April 06 2003,12:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Do you mean this map?  In other words, do you agree with where your government has drawn the international borders?<span id='postcolor'>

That looks about right.<span id='postcolor'>

Why didn't/doesn't Israel simply make everyone living within its international border an Israeli citizen?

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ April 06 2003,12:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why didn't/doesn't Israel simply make everyone living within its international border an Israeli citizen?<span id='postcolor'>

No country I know of is in the habit of making belligerent country's citizens (Jordan and Egypt) their own.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 06 2003,12:o2)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ April 06 2003,12:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why didn't/doesn't Israel simply make everyone living within its international border an Israeli citizen?<span id='postcolor'>

No country I know of is in the habit of making belligerent country's citizens (Jordan and Egypt) their own.<span id='postcolor'>

How many people are living within Israel's international borders?

How many of these have not been granted Israeli citizenship?

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ April 06 2003,13:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How many people are living within Israel's international borders?

How many of these have not been granted Israeli citizenship?<span id='postcolor'>

You're a big boy now. You can look these up yourself.

BTW, keep in mind that precisely because of the complications and controversial status of the West Bank and Gaza, Israel never declared this an official part of the state, unlike the Golan Heights.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 06 2003,12:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">BTW, keep in mind that precisely because of the complications and controversial status of the West Bank and Gaza, Israel never declared this an official part of the state, unlike the Golan Heights.<span id='postcolor'>

Why does Israel draw its international border around territory that has not been declared an official part of the state?

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ April 06 2003,14:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why does Israel draw its international border around territory that has not been declared an official part of the state?<span id='postcolor'>

I think this is more a semantic and technical problem than anything else.

My guess is that international boundaries by definition here mean either cease-fire lines or mutually agreed boundaries between sovereign nations.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 06 2003,07:o3)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Even pior to 1993, most Israeli school textbooks almost always showed the "Green Line" and mentioned its relevance as defining areas captured in the 6-Day War but never legally annexed by Israel.<span id='postcolor'>

Why didn't Israel annex the areas captured in the 6-day War?

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ April 06 2003,15:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why didn't Israel annex the areas captured in the 6-day War?<span id='postcolor'>

You'll find the answers, once again, at Israel's Ministry Of Foreign Affairs.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 06 2003,14:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ April 06 2003,15:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why didn't Israel annex the areas captured in the 6-day War?<span id='postcolor'>

You'll find the answers, once again, at Israel's Ministry Of Foreign Affairs.<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">When the Six Day War ended, Israelis believed that a new era was beginning, one that would bring peace to the region. Hoping to translate military gains into a permanent peace, Israel sent out a clear message that it would exchange almost all the territory gained in the war for peace with its neighbors.

Furthermore, Israel gave strong indications of its deep desire to negotiate a solution, including through territorial compromise, by deciding not to annex the West Bank or Gaza Strip. This is important evidence of Israel's intent given both the strategic depth these areas offered and the Jewish people's age-old ties to numerous religious and historical sites, especially in the West Bank.

But Israel's hope for peace was quickly dashed...<span id='postcolor'>

Ok, then why didn't Israel annex the areas captured in the 6-day War, after hope for peace was dashed?

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ April 06 2003,16:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok, then why didn't Israel annex the areas captured in the 6-day War, after hope for peace was dashed?<span id='postcolor'>

Hey, that's a great ideas! Thanks!

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 06 2003,15:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ April 06 2003,16:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok, then why didn't Israel annex the areas captured in the 6-day War, after hope for peace was dashed?<span id='postcolor'>

Hey, that's a great ideas! Thanks!<span id='postcolor'>

I agree.  But if it's such a great idea then why didn't Israel do it?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ April 06 2003,22:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 06 2003,15:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ April 06 2003,16:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok, then why didn't Israel annex the areas captured in the 6-day War, after hope for peace was dashed?<span id='postcolor'>

Hey, that's a great ideas! Thanks!<span id='postcolor'>

I agree.  But if it's such a great idea then why didn't Israel do it?<span id='postcolor'>

Because maybe they aren't as hell-bent at achieving an ultra-paranoid state of national defense as some people think they are?

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ April 07 2003,00:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ April 06 2003,22:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 06 2003,15:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ April 06 2003,16:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok, then why didn't Israel annex the areas captured in the 6-day War, after hope for peace was dashed?<span id='postcolor'>

Hey, that's a great ideas! Thanks!<span id='postcolor'>

I agree.  But if it's such a great idea then why didn't Israel do it?<span id='postcolor'>

Because maybe they aren't as hell-bent at achieving an ultra-paranoid state of national defense as some people think they are?<span id='postcolor'>

So, are you disagreeing with theavonlady?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So, are you disagreeing with theavonlady?

<span id='postcolor'>

She hasn't exactly taken a firm stand either way, so I couldn't tell you. And if you ask me, where Israel draws its boundaries is one of the least important issues. The arab countries invaded, they got beat, and Israel ultimately benefited from a territorial point of view. What's the problem?

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ April 07 2003,07:o9)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So, are you disagreeing with theavonlady?

<span id='postcolor'>

She hasn't exactly taken a firm stand either way, so I couldn't tell you. And if you ask me, where Israel draws its boundaries is one of the least important issues. The arab countries invaded, they got beat, and Israel ultimately benefited from a territorial point of view. What's the problem?<span id='postcolor'>

Perhaps the problem is that you are not reading my questions.  And what theavonlady "firmly" called a "great idea" you referred to as "achieving an ultra-paranoid state of national defense."  So, you'll forgive me if I got the impression you were disagreeing with her.

Meanwhile, let's get back to the main question. I still haven't learned from theavonlady why her nation would capture areas of land, administer those areas, draw its international borders to include those areas, but not declare these areas as an official part of the state.  Looking at this question from yet a different angle, why was it ok to do it in 1948 but not in 1967, especially after hope for peace had been dashed?

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ April 07 2003,10:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Meanwhile, let's get back to the main question.  I still haven't learned from theavonlady why her nation would capture areas of land, administer those areas, draw its international borders to include those areas, but not declare these areas as an official part of the state.  Looking at this question from yet a different angle, why was it ok to do it in 1948 but not in 1967, especially after hope for peace had been dashed?<span id='postcolor'>

Let's sum up. This is boring, though your point is obviously to castigate Israel for not making the inhabitants of Judea, Samaria and Gaza full citizens.

Some reasons:

1. Who wants enemies as citizens?

2. Israeli citizenship was generally repugnant to the vehemently anti-Israeli population.

3. Israel continued seeking negotiations and attempted to find a compromise to the many problems. (How many times are you going to parrot the words "hope for peace had been dashed" at us?)

4. US Pressure.

5. Why don't you give us your suggestions? What is this - an inquisition?

As for 1948 borders, these were cease fire lines, plain and simple, after the first of many wars that the Arabs started with the goal being Israel's destruction.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 07 2003,09:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ April 07 2003,10:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Meanwhile, let's get back to the main question.  I still haven't learned from theavonlady why her nation would capture areas of land, administer those areas, draw its international borders to include those areas, but not declare these areas as an official part of the state.  Looking at this question from yet a different angle, why was it ok to do it in 1948 but not in 1967, especially after hope for peace had been dashed?<span id='postcolor'>

Let's sum up. This is boring, though your point is obviously to castigate Israel for not making the inhabitants of Judea, Samaria and Gaza full citizens.<span id='postcolor'>

Castigate?  Wow, that's quite a chip you have on your shoulder.  Can't someone even ask you "why" without filling you with suspicions?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 07 2003,09:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Some reasons:

1. Who wants enemies as citizens?<span id='postcolor'>

I completely understand, but isn't that part of the baggage that comes with capturing territory - at least for a little while?  It's extremely rare for the inhabitants of captured land to welcome the capteurs as friends.  But still, I honestly can't think of any nation that has ever captured land without ultimately making the people of that land into citizens, can you?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 07 2003,09:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">2. Israeli citizenship was generally repugnant to the vehemently anti-Israeli population.<span id='postcolor'>

...Just as American citizenship was generally repugnant to the Mexicans living in what became Texas, in 1845.  But, see how times change.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 07 2003,09:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">3. Israel continued seeking negotiations and attempted to find a compromise to the many problems. (How many times are you going to parrot the words "hope for peace had been dashed" at us?)<span id='postcolor'>

They're the words of your Ministry of Foreign Affairs, not mine.  Take it up with them if you don't agree.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 07 2003,09:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">4. US Pressure.<span id='postcolor'>

What pressure?  The US had nearly no influence at all back then compared with today.  And what about all that "US pressure" not to build settlements on the captured land?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 07 2003,09:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">5. Why don't you give us your suggestions? What is this - an inquisition?<span id='postcolor'>

No inquisition - just a rather tough question.  My suggestion?  I honestly don't know why Israel didn't annex the land captured in 1967, the way it did with land captured in 1948.  Maybe the Sinai got in the way.  Or perhaps it was the ethno-religious demographics of the captured population.  But everytime I think about how few of today's terrorists come from the Israeli Arab populations captured in 1948, I can't help but wonder why the post-1967 mess couldn't have been solved on similar terms with a similar outcome - annexation, citizenship, democracy, prosperity, end of saga.  Plain and simple.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 07 2003,09:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As for 1948 borders, these were cease fire lines, plain and simple...<span id='postcolor'>

Of course they were.  Let's face it, a great percentage of the world's international borders used to be ceasefire lines.

[bogo 0]

Israeli Air Attack Kills Seven Palestinians

http://reuters.com/newsArt....2531213

[bogo 0]

Palestinian Students Wounded in School Blast

http://reuters.com/newsArt....2537618

For all of you that dont belive that there are also Israeli Terrorists

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bogo @ April 09 2003,23:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Palestinian Students Wounded in School Blast

http://reuters.com/newsArt....2537618

For all of you that dont belive that there are also Israeli Terrorists    <span id='postcolor'>

Even the PA says some kids brought munitions into school.

Sorry you had to jump to such happy conclusions.

[FSPilot 0]

It would probably only serve to inflame everybody.

[Bernadotte 0]

From the Reuters article Bogo quoted:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Jewish vigilantes have carried out several attacks against Palestinians during the two-and-a-half-year-old revolt for Palestinian independence.<span id='postcolor'></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 10 2003,05:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bogo @ April 09 2003,23:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For all of you that dont belive that there are also Israeli Terrorists    <span id='postcolor'>

Sorry you had to jump to such happy conclusions.<span id='postcolor'>

Sorry avon, if the rest of us don't share your view of happiness.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ April 10 2003,10:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">From the Reuters article Bogo quoted:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Jewish vigilantes have carried out several attacks against Palestinians during the two-and-a-half-year-old revolt for Palestinian independence.<span id='postcolor'></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 10 2003,05:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bogo @ April 09 2003,23:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For all of you that dont belive that there are also Israeli Terrorists    <span id='postcolor'>

Sorry you had to jump to such happy conclusions.<span id='postcolor'>

Sorry avon, if the rest of us don't share your view of happiness.<span id='postcolor'>

Name these master Jewish terror "groups".

How many people are in these "groups"?

How many is the word "several", mentioned by Reuters?

What support does the Israeli government give to them?

Who finances (LOL! ) them?

What level of popularity do these "groups" have with Israelis"?

What a farce! Hey, did you know that Canada is a terrorist haven on a much wider scale?

[IceFire 0]

Kill this thread! This thread is so old.

Let it die.

I'm sick of seeing threads with like 60 pages and 1000 posts.

These threads need to be done away with to make room for fresh new threads!

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ April 11 2003,05:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Kill this thread!   This thread is so old.

Let it die.

I'm sick of seeing threads with like 60 pages and 1000 posts.

These threads need to be done away with to make room for fresh new threads!<span id='postcolor'>

No one's forcing you to read it, and you're the only one continually calling for it's closure for no good reason. The fact that this "old" thread hasn't fallen into dissuse in all the time it has existed speaks for the fact that there is a purpose for it.