Mid east

[Paratrooper 0]

Thats rediculous! Palestine is a country that consists of the West Bank and Gaza, not the rest of Israel. Israel equally has no right to Palestinian territory, the were partitioned according to UN mandate. Israel occupies Palestine hence the Violence, I reiterate; only a few extremist organisations deny Israel's right to exist.

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ June 22 2002,23:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Nations who forcibly occupy other countries (yes Palestine was a country untill 1967) Don't have a right to be free from terrorism.<span id='postcolor'>

wow wow wow! check your history books man! there was no palestine ever! the west bank was in jordanian control and gaza was egyptian.

[Bowlchop 0]

Ya know what i think we should do. I think we should put every palistinian and every isreali on spaceships and let them start a colony on mars. THAT would solve this issue.

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ June 24 2002,18:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Thats rediculous! Palestine is a country that consists of the West Bank and Gaza, not the rest of Israel. Israel equally has no right to Palestinian territory, the were partitioned according to UN mandate. Israel occupies Palestine hence the Violence, I reiterate; only a few extremist organisations deny Israel's right to exist.<span id='postcolor'>

The UN mandates are a joke. As far as history goes, there have been pals living in all of Israel+WB+Gaza and also jews living in all of Israel+WB+Gaza. The only intelligent solution would be to have a single state with both groups living in it. That isn't "denying Israel's right to exist". Unfortunately, both groups have grown to hate each other so much the intelligent solutions don't work anymore = clusterfuck.

[Lazarus_Long 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ya know what i think we should do. I think we should put every palistinian and every isreali on spaceships and let them start a colony on mars. THAT would solve this issue.<span id='postcolor'>

It would be a waste of a perfectly good planet.

I say, let them fight it out right where they are.  This so called "Holy Land" is one of the ugliest pieces of real estate in the world. All that "milk and honey" stuff God spoke of was all a load of crap.  I say the Jew's got a raw deal from the start.  Let them fight over it and when it's over we can declare whoever has to move away from that armpit of the world the winner.

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ June 24 2002,12:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I reiterate; only a few extremist organisations deny Israel's right to exist.<span id='postcolor'>

That is buloney. Are you saying that the PLO recognizes Israel's right to exist?

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But if USA tries to solve it by a war on terrorism that turns into the greatest global conflict ever seen - THEN I would say we would be better of without USA<span id='postcolor'>

We wouldn't want the U.S to encroach on the Euro's special knack for starting World Wars.

If starting gigantic conflicts is your criteria, then how does Europe fare on your "places we could do without" list?

[Bowlchop 0]

HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! its funny because its true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ June 25 2002,21:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ June 24 2002,12:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I reiterate; only a few extremist organisations deny Israel's right to exist.<span id='postcolor'>

That is buloney.  Are you saying that the PLO recognizes Israel's right to exist?<span id='postcolor'>

Yes the PLO does regognise Israel's right to exist, why do so many of you keep posing here exposing your ignorance.

Also can so many of you stop posying crap here, blocking real debate </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">lets send them to mars huhuhuh<span id='postcolor'> it's tiresome.

[Postduifje 0]

Uh, every time Bush says the word "terror", there's anarchy in my intestine. His statements today bring peace in the middle east yet one step furter away.

[Lazarus_Long 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also can so many of you stop posying crap here, blocking real debate <span id='postcolor'>

I don't think you get the point, this whole debate is crap.  Do you really think you're intellectually superior to anyone in here who has given their opinion in this matter along the lines of: "Who cares!"? Don't you realize that you guys are arguing with each other over a conflict that has no possible way of reaching a solution.  Yes, it is sad to see that the territorial dispute between the Israelis and the Palestinians has become some perverse all-out religious war.  This to me is the most sickening of all types of war. It’s completely useless, and has absolutely no way of becoming resolved until one side is 100% wiped out. There is NO peaceful solution here, only violence in it's most primitive form.  

So what should the rest of the world do about this?  Simple: Sit back and enjoy the show, pretend it's a movie or something. There is NOTHING that can be done.  It's very sad that so many innocent lives, especially children, will be wasted, but this is the way of nature.  Human nature at it's worst.  May we all learn from it.

"It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics."

---Robert A. Heinlein in Postscript to Revolt in 2100

Let this thread die already!

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Do you really think you're intellectually superior to anyone in here who has given their opinion in this matter along the lines of: "Who cares!"?<span id='postcolor'> Yes, why post if you have no idea what you are talking about? If your country was invaded you'd care.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So what should the rest of the world do about this? Simple: Sit back and enjoy the show, pretend it's a movie or something. <span id='postcolor'> You said it, you defend it. The world looks on with sadness, as should you.

[Lazarus_Long 0]

Don't quote me out of context. I think I made myself perfectly clear.

[Paratrooper 0]

You spoke alot without saying anything.

[Lazarus_Long 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You spoke alot without saying anything.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, I don't know what to say to that. I'm sorry if you can't understand what I'm trying to say.

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ June 25 2002,17:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes the PLO does regognise Israel's right to exist, why do so many of you keep posing here exposing your ignorance.<span id='postcolor'>

Not according to their charter.  They havent changed it.

I wouldn't start calling people ignorant if I were you. You're the one who thinks Palestine was a country until 1967. ROFLMAO

"Since we cannot defeat Israel in war, we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine and establish a sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel." - Yasser Arafat, from interview on Jordanian television, 1993

[Paratrooper 0]

It was a country under the protective administration of Egypt and Jordan.

[Paratrooper 0]

I think we all agree that the debate is not adressing the moral position of occupation, and terrorism.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

The Palestinian Authority does not cite the destruction of Israel as a goal or interest, they deny all such allegations....

People opposed to the PA say that they tell a different story in Arabic to their people -giving in effect one view to the west and another to the arab world

( which Israelis and the US public seems to have commonly accepted- presumably due to media reporting)

personally i have seen no real proof of this two-faced approach in the western media ( though that proves nothing)

I have no doubt that Arafat has a domestic message and an international message (what politician doesnt?),

But whatever wild dreams he or his militant associates entertain,

The arab nations do not have the conventional power to destroy the state of Israel-so all that 'arabs pushing us into the sea' or 'existential threat' stuff is rubbish

(the exception being Weaps. of mass destruction- which tank maneuvering in pali. areas only encourages

+Israel is reported to have 100's of nukes)

Israel is NOT in a weak position.

It doesnt matter if thousands of Palestinians want to wipe out Israel , THEY CANT DO IT!

Just like Osama cant wipe out the USA (though id be careful of making the link)

As long as thousands more Palestinians are willing to live in their own state alongside Israel there is always hope.

Suicide bombing 15-30 people is horrific and sad but it will not bring down an established nation that holds massive military strength.

Lazerus long i think you are wrong (check the rhyming skillz )

the idea that it can only stop when either side is obliterated is wrong and short sighted. Besides which the main aim i think is de-escalation of the conflict as opposed to absolute peace(there are always bound to be a few violent incidents), this is certainly acheivable and well within the bounds of possibility.

The important thing is to make that patch of land more livable and decrease the levels of suffering and tension as much as is possible.

Absolute peace may be an ideal to work towards, not a reality

This is a particularly bad patch of suicide bombing and reprisals but there will always be lulls and slight thawing out periods at least.

If these can be seized and turned into lasting ceasfires

then (if only for a few months or years ) youve made millions of peoples lives just a bit more 'normal'.

And then if you can truly address both sides main concerns then there is hope of a widespread peace (or at least much minimised conflict).

Your 'idea' that we should just @@@K it! or 'let it burn' or whatever

is just idiotic. (if at least somewhat understandable given the interminable nature of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict)

-

-

Hey l00k! Im Lazerus_Long!>>> Africas too poor- theres no point in trying to develop it any more, lets just let generations of Africans grow up in an approximation of hell, cos-hey despite the fact that we actually have enough excessive food and medical aid to get to them all, its taking too long and anyway it makes good news stories!

(note the subtlest whiff of sacasm on the air)

OK that was childish but the point is YOU ARE VERY WRONG

this conflict could very well be brought to an end at some time in the medium future with enough western intervention

-To ignore it would be to let it fester and infect the surrounding area more and more ,incrementally with each new bloodbath,

until a large scale war becomes a great possibility (or at least for instance very widespead support of terrorist action and increase in the number of regimes willing to support or turn a blind eye to islamic terrorists)

If the US were to abandon peacemaking now after it has interfered already in the Middle East then the situation could well increase out of control until the US is compelled to act in its own self interest

(large scale pro-Bin Laden islamic radical revolution and overthrow of pro-western oil monarch regimes for example)

[Lazarus_Long 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If the US were to abandon peacemaking now after it has interfered already in the Middle East then the situation could well increase out of control until the US is compelled to act in its own self interest

(large scale pro-Bin Laden islamic radical revolution and overthrow of pro-western oil monarch regimes for example)<span id='postcolor'>

Do you really think that our biased meddling in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is preventing the Arab states to stop selling us oil??  I would think it's the other way around.  If we keep pissing off the Arab Alliance by kissing up to Israel, they would be more likely to cut us off.

I guess we owe it to Israel to stay involved as they depend on us for their survival.  I still think that it's time to let nature take it's course.  Israel has become a liablilty for us, they repeatedly defy any "advice" we give them while at the same time expecting us to bail them out if things get completely out of hand.  It's neither apporpriate nor helpful for us to associate ourselves with either them or the PA.

I really do feel sorry for the people who live there who just want to get along and live their lives, but any lasting peace in that region will NEVER work. It's a shame. These ceasefires have become nothing more than  a re-group and organize session for both sides.  It gives the PLO cronies time to build another set of bombs, and Israel time to catch up on tank maintenence.  It's delaying the inevitable, which in this case is a fight to the end.  Wether or not the U.S. or the rest of the worls gets involved in trying to make peace will not change this fact.        

They are either just going to have to learn that co-existence is the only option they have.  Or they will just keep killing each other until one side is wiped off the planet.  Either way the choice is theres and not anybody elses.

BTW, your Africa analogy was in poor taste.  This is a completely different and unique situation.  Don't twist my words around.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I guess we owe it to Israel to stay involved as they depend on us for their survival. I still think that it's time to let nature take it's course. Israel has become a liablilty for us, they repeatedly defy any "advice" we give them while at the same time expecting us to bail them out if things get completely out of hand. It's neither apporpriate nor helpful for us to associate ourselves with either them or the PA.

<span id='postcolor'> This is an typical American conceit, just because America bends over backwards to help Israel does not mean Israel needs the USA. Israel is under no military threat it can't more than handle, and just because you give them millions of dollars don't expect American "advice" to count for anything.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

"Do you really think that our biased meddling in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is preventing the Arab states to stop selling us oil??  I would think it's the other way around.  If we keep pissing off the Arab Alliance by kissing up to Israel, they would be more likely to cut us off."

You misunderstand slightly, its not the USA >specifically<- ANY peace process or even pretence of such helps to prevent a complete downward spiral to war -

The US being the only superpower its seen as the main viable mediator and the

If there was no peace initiative at all then there would little holding the extreme elements on both sides back

and if enough palestinian blood was spilt in large sclae conflict then certain middle eastern kingdoms would either have to bow to popular pressure and assist the palistinians (thus screwing up US relations) and initiating a full blown Middle Eastern war

or they could ignore the feelings of unrest in their countries and could undergo revolutions or insurrections of more extreme islamists (quite possibly supporters of Al Quaida)

(and would they want to trade with America??)

thats if the governments were not seen to help the Palis enough.

So its a no win situation as far as US influence in the region would go (+ oil, Israels security, US air bases in mid east etc)

thats a fairly minimal possibility but if the situation got completly out of control its quite possible.

And no the massive US bias doesnt help , but the arabs know the US are the only game in town (for now) so theyre still willing to negotiate with you

"BTW, your Africa analogy was in poor taste.  This is a completely different and unique situation.  Don't twist my words around."

I dont think so. Youre saying let the situation stew, when we have much more to lose by leaving it ,than we gain...

In fact the Africa situation is very tame

There you'de actually have to give something away,

whereas all the US has to do here is make a plan and talk to both sides..

not much to lose

the US would not be hated for creating peace in palestine,

they would be seen as more equal than they used to be,

noone hates genuine global peacemakers (and i dont mean by bombing)

except those who arent friends of the US already, from what i have seen theres certainly irritation with the US in palestinian society, but not the same outright hatred of Israel...

they know the US could still get them what they want (a viable state to keep out Israeli soldiers)

anyway if the US let the EU negotiate instead then it could lose prestige in the international community and be seen to be 'opting out' of the rest of the world...... this would run counter to the last 50 years of US global policy and start to erode the US 'last superpower status'

global policeman (a myth) status and all that $Å"t

Maybe you like the sound of that, but you can bet the bums in Washington dont.

"I guess we owe it to Israel to stay involved as they depend on us for their survival."

Did i not make this clear?

"Israel is NOT in a weak position.

It doesnt matter if thousands of Palestinians want to wipe out Israel , THEY CANT DO IT!"

Israel DOES NOT DEPEND ON THE US FOR SURVIVAL ANY MORE!

(in fact what precisly did the US do throughout the arab Israeli wars? supply arms?it certainly didnt fight)

they are locked loaded and ready to rumble

you sold them fucking APACHE GUNSHIPs

and they have MERKEVA tanks (splling?)

and thousands and thousands of conscript soldiers

F16 fighter-bombers

a thriving arms industry

etc etc

DO YOU GET IT YET?

THEY DONT NEED YOU! (the US)

YOUVE ALREADY GIVEN THEM EVERYTHING THEY NEED TO DESTROY ALL ARAB STATES BORDERING THEM WITH EASE

did i mention THRIVING ARMS INDUSTRY?

have you taken this into your memory banks now?

good

thank you

damn i gotta g to sleep

[Lazarus_Long 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This is an typical American conceit, just because America bends over backwards to help Israel does not mean Israel needs the USA. Israel is under no military threat it can't more than handle, and just because you give them millions of dollars don't expect American "advice" to count for anything.<span id='postcolor'>

This is a perfect example of the typcal Israeli ingratefulness, and disrespect that I was talking about. If they are so confident that they can handle everything on their own, why worry if U.S. cut them off? THEY NEED US!! plain and simple. Israel's ties to the west is the only reason why the other Arab States haven't pulverized them yet.

I can't believe I got suckered into this debate....

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Lazarus_Long @ June 27 2002,03:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This is an typical American conceit, just because America bends over backwards to help Israel does not mean Israel needs the USA. Israel is under no military threat it can't more than handle, and just because you give them millions of dollars don't expect American "advice" to count for anything.<span id='postcolor'>

This is a perfect example of the typcal Israeli ingratefulness, and disrespect that I was talking about.  If they are so confident that they can handle everything on their own, why worry if U.S. cut them off?  THEY NEED US!! plain and simple.  Israel's ties to the west is the only reason why the other Arab States haven't pulverized them yet.

I can't believe I got suckered into this debate....<span id='postcolor'>

You really don't know what you are talking about. Israel does not need American protection, the Arab nations simply are not a match for Israel, and what would America do if they were? Its time for the USA to stop considering Israel as an American outpost.

[dando 0]

first:im isreali

second:i dont think you understand this conflict,

pepole in isreal cannot do nothing,i'm afraid thet if i get out of the house or go to the mall,it will be the end for me,

i know thet the palstine are like us to,and i would understand them if they were aginst those bombing,when a sucide bomber kill pepole here,they celbrete,they not saying it's worng,and they thech their children to hate us and to bomb and kill isreali and jwish pepole it's good,we dont tell this to our children or doin this at all,we didnt do to them nothing for allong time an leting them kill allot of isreali's,our gorment want peach,and if you look in the isreali history you see thet we didnt went to war with none of our enemys,

to finish this "speach",i just want to say thet no 1 can judge us and tell us thet we dont do enouge for the peach in the midlle east,think about thet...

thanks for your time.

dan.