Mid east

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Oh man this thread is getting boring...somehow (so dont read it right?). Can we not get back to something slightly more explosive than this Karl Marx bla bla?

[Pukko 0]

It dont seems like I was able to get my very abstract point out right, and will not be on less than a 100 more pages either I gather; but a basic thing in my thinking is that I always seem to try imagening a society 50 - 200 years ahead (a big problem of mine ). And I will not try to continue this discussion much further either (to avoid the risk of killing this great thread, but this seems to be the only place for this kind of discussion coz most spammers dont look here).

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think that a problem is that democracy is a holy cow today. I am not at all that sure that average Sven, Fritz and Joe can decide what's best. You have a lot of descisions that require prior knowledge and understanding of the issue, and that is impossible to expect from the citizens. One other issue is that crowds are generally stupid and easily manipulated. A group of people can easily be turned into a lynching mob.<span id='postcolor'>

As I tried to say, this is not something that is possible with the citisens we construct today (the social construction of humans is quite obvious if you look around you). I think I can be quite sure that the citisens we see today are not 'the by nature default' human beings; we are rather maybe 80% products of our own time. And a century or two ahead people will most certainly think in an entire different way than we do today. The question I asked about economics is crucial in the utopia of 'direct democracy' I gather, that most people dont have to be employed (or even can be), but get a good living none the less (and serving society in other ways than today).

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ May 16 2002,14:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh man this thread is getting boring...somehow (so dont read it right?). Can we not get back to something slightly more explosive than this Karl Marx bla bla?<span id='postcolor'>

You seem to be imprisoned in intellectually mainstreamed theories Albert, only to come with some fancy but quite empty words and concepts. NO offence! - but it is a quite usual way of 'abusing' social theories (that we all fall into, and have to fight); they have no real value in them selves! I do know about Marx, but will never try to reduce something that looks like (but actually dont have to have anything to do with it) it to merely obsolete bla, bla.... If one is scared for everything that looks like failed social experiments; we would be quite fixed, right?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's not that we even live in a representative democracy. Year after year, it's the same assholes representing their own interest in the parliament. If we want to have a REAL representative democracy, we should have a lottery where the senators are chosen at random from the whole population. Thus we would have a real average sampling of the people to make the decisions, not skewed by political advertising (=lies). The senators could make even hard decisions, because they need not worry about getting re-elected (almost no chance). Furthermore, the salary of the senators should be very low, so to make it almost a punishment to be assigned to the senate. That way we could eliminate any money hunger motivated meddling with the electoral lottery. Also, political parties could still exist, but this time the parties would have to convince the people, not the other way around. This kind of lotteries would be possible in all the countries where the state knows the name and address of every citizen from birth (like in Finland).<span id='postcolor'>

The basics in that sounds like a real good idea, and could probably be implemented even in our primitive time!! With a quite big senate (or what to call it) consisting of 'just anyone' (yes, even 'children' it would be very possible I gather! Thanks for sharing this vision Oligo

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pukko @ May 16 2002,17:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You seem to be imprisoned in intellectually mainstreamed theories Albert, only to come with some fancy but quite empty words and concepts. NO offence! - but it is a quite usual way of 'abusing' social theories (that we all fall into, and have to fight); they have no real value in them selves! I do know about Marx, but will never try to reduce something that looks like (but actually dont have to have anything to do with it) it to merely obsolete bla, bla.... If one is scared for everything that looks like failed social experiments; we would be quite fixed, right?<span id='postcolor'>

Thank you Pukko, I was just about to say the same thing too.

Albert:

You brought up the discussion by glorifying democracy. When sombody brings up a discussion about it you back off by saying "boooring.. Marx, blah blah". Then you really havn't contributed anything except for a repetition of the standard set of values that we all know about. Of course it becomes boring and pointless if you keep it at that level.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Right now I am "imprisioned" (damm you should write expressionistic poems) in the duty of writing a dissertation. This is why I dont want to become also too sophisticated in my leisure (as right now in this forum), or at least in this thread which once was about the middle East.

Refering to Karl Marx has indeed nothing to do with the topic (smart guy!! but with the way of wasting words instead of putting it straight!   I feel a thread has been ruined, that is about all!

oh and BTW: of course I keep gloriying it, cause as I said before I consider democracy as an ideology that we try to put into practice in the best way possible. That is the purpose of an ideology, and no, please dont post here an google-found definition of "ideology")

[Pukko 0]

Back to topic or rather  

Anyone who have any comments (and/or links) to Arafats statements the last days about him being open, at least officially, to reform the Palestnian government and recognising a Israeli state?

Also, you Swedes. Have you been looking at the 'Dokument utifrĺn' dokumentary about Arafat last week and Israeli critics towards the occupations to night? I recon that they were quite Pro Palestinian biased (at least the last one), what do you think?

(And Albert, I too have an essay (or dissertation) to write; but keeps pushing it ahead (no strict dead line)   )

[DVII 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WKK Gimbal @ May 16 2002,07:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I was OK with the EU untill one fine day when I was going to France for holiday and had to middle-land in Brussels for a couple of hours...

We went on a sightseeing and it turned out that half the city is turned into one huge EU buerocratic(?) concrete block. It's not just huge, it's like you can drive for an hour straight ahead, and you will STILL be passing by EU offices next to more EU offices!

Not that I care for the preservation of Brussels architecture, but this made me realize how fucking huge and resource wasteful the EU "control room" is. I was thinking about the 10000's of people working there all wasting my good taxmoney on working out BS resolutions, like "what colours should be allowed on a beer bottle" and shit like that.<span id='postcolor'>

I am from Belguim and i live near Brussels, first of all i don't like Brussels coz its such a badly organized and dirty city. I dont like this EU stuff either.

I lost my previous job because of the this EU control room that makes stupid regulations for companies and goverments to follow. So you can imagine how happy i am to pay my taxes.

[Die Alive 0]

Wow, no replies in 5 days, I would of bet that there would be peace in the middle east before this thread goes 5 days without a reply.

-=Die Alive=-

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

The situation does not change, I am not surprised. T

he last occupation did not change jack-shit. Yesterday you had two suicide bombers within 24 hours.

Actually, this is a pretty sad result for a useless Israeli occupation that once claimed to destroy "majorly important" terorist infrastructures. Well they destroyed a lot, that is for certain. The Israelis even insisted on continuing while the US protested (a very lame protest though), because they wanted to do a complete job. How complete was it then, now that they once again need to repeat their occupation and destroy other buildings? Buildings they forgot to bomb last time? Terorist they could not find last time? Or rather blood revenge, punishing all for the deed of a few?

"The whole conflict is so silly and childish. All people involved defend themselves and their actions and accuse the other side." This has been said so many times but is so simple stupid true! I just remember those BBC discussions where you see a representative of the Israelis in the left top corner and one of the palestinians in the right top corner and the moderator below. And like a mother with two children the discussion goes on: "mom, it was them", "no it was them", "they lie", "no they lie" and all that with the support of very opposing statistics and unconfirmed accusals! Grow up over there, go back to school!

[Guest]

Ok, how about Iraq?

In statements showing their profound grasp of the obvious, Iraqi vice-president said that the United States is planning on attacking Iraq whether or not they comply with UN arms inspectors.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

YOu better dont become a country the US doesnt like, otherwise you will end up like poor Cuba!

I am sure the US is alread intensively preparing the war against IRAQ. They simply dont trust the results of the UN-inspectors. Anyway, how can they? In a state as vast as Iraq with endless deserts it cant be too hard to errect hidden factories and headquarters. Probably there is also enough time to empty those once inspectors are announced to pass by for a short check!

I suppose the US right now are working through their satelite images and highlight all infrastructures that could be abused for military purposes. Those will be their targets, I dont think they will go for saddams administrative infrastructure!

I actually dont care about their DESERT STORM PART 2, as long as they lift those stupid sanctions. It is ashame they they only modified them. This silent death has causes several 100`000s deaths already. What was the so called war for then? Attacking with fuel-bombs would have come out with the same result. Especially since those sanctions have in fact strengthened Saddams military balance-sheet (especially the pipeline to Syria).

[bn880 5]

Well just think;

history repeats itself, and so the US will not remain a super power for ever (like any super power that bothered the struggling world in the past), and probably not even for long. Just imagine the dozens of countries that might seek revenge then... and for good reason!

An eye for an eye may be childish and self destructive, but it is accepted around the world. So I would be carefull.

PS: if you believe the US can go on like this pissing off the world for ever, then you have alot in common with the aincient Romans, the Nazis and other wonderfull groups of people.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I have something in Comon with the Nazis, I am german, but that is about all the similarities. Oh, and I have something in common with the Romans too, I was born in Aachen (or Aix la chapelle) which was the capital of the New Roman Empire under King Karl (or King Cole) son of King Pippin.

Maybe you are a bit harsh! The US is very much going its own way, that is true, but usually not without a real provocation. The opponent should be smart enough to weigh up risks with opportunities. Saddam could have known beforehand what would happen (he didnt have much of a choice, he had to pressure forwards in order not to get murdered himself). The same is true with the Al Quaida. How dumb can you be.

I dont play with bulls, I know they are stupid, but still they are dangerous (a very mean picture to compare the US with a bull, but hey!! Its fun ).

[bn880 5]

Hehhe... lol

I guess so, but countries should try not to behave like bulls. Unless they want to attract cows... if McDonalds doesn't get em first.

Actually, Sadam never actually attacked the US. Neither did the Taliban (Al-qada maybe), and don't forget the other conflcts (obvious or not).

Imagine if after 9/11 Germany refused the US to hand over it's citizens without proof, evidence or a case. Would it be normal to wipe out Germany and the German govt? (that's if somehow Bin Laden and other people were actually German citizens)

Yep Japan was asking for it...

The Palestinians never attacked the US, yet the US funnels weapons and money to the Jews. So, I blame the US.

I don't clearly remember why the US decided to do everything they could to get rid of communism, and support the Taliban agains the Soviets. I don't think the Soviets actually attacked the US (they had "TERRORIST" problems with the Afghans just like the US).

Anyway, the US is probably more like a mad cow than a bull.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

We are getting to general here. The US are supporting Israel because they have a great amount of very successful and influential Jewish Americans in their country. So of course they are taking a rather pro-israeli approach. But you are taking it too far when you say that they actually physically support the actions against palestine. I would rather say they dont protest enough, but that is about it.

The Taliban should all burn in hell. I dont allow any discussion there. Mainly because they werent an elected administrative power but a criminal regime of murderes and rapers. To defend them with arguments, just because you dont agree with US foreign policies is wrong. I am glad this country (once a very liberal place with advanced emancipation movements) has finally found a track that guides into the right direction. I must say I am afraid of fundamentalists such as the Taliban, which brutally surpress the weakest in the community (women). All our bla bla about religious-tolerance is fine when we talk about the true Islam, but dealing with fundamentalism needs to use iron fist, otherwise you gonna be the one soon wearing a full-body Birka.

[Pukko 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ May 21 2002,16:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The opponent should be smart enough to weigh up risks with opportunities...... ......The same is true with the Al Quaida. How dumb can you be.<span id='postcolor'>

I still recon that was Osamas (still if it really was him) and Al Quaida whole intention.

As well planned as 9/11 was, they had most certainly prepared themselves for months to be able to continue operations. The very reason could very well be to turn world opinion against USA, and if USA dont change their ways (and continue to give reason for extreme actions) this could develop to a global Israel/Palestine like conflict. I really dont think that they were stupid enough just to send some planes crashing into US buildings just for fun; they had their reasons (justified to us or nor does not matter) and we will see their futher goals soon enough I recon. Attacking Afganistan is just another in a row of vaugly justified US military actions (playing the terrorists right in their hands), and could serve as just another reason for many people to want ot hurt USA.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Taliban should all burn in hell. I dont allow any discussion there. Mainly because they werent an elected administrative power but a criminal regime of murderes and rapers. To defend them with arguments, just because you dont agree with US foreign policies is wrong. I am glad this country (once a very liberal place with advanced emancipation movements) has finally found a track that guides into the right direction. I must say I am afraid of fundamentalists such as the Taliban, which brutally surpress the weakest in the community (women). All our bla bla about religious-tolerance is fine when we talk about the true Islam, but dealing with fundamentalism needs to use iron fist, otherwise you gonna be the one soon wearing a full-body Birka.  <span id='postcolor'>

It makes me sad to see you too considering the Talibans to be the worst scum in the world, I wrote this recently, and I still stand for it:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pukko @ May 07 2002,17:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Regading the great defeat of the Talibans:

I really hate the way western media alienates the Talibans as the most evil and cruel people around. Look, I dont really 'defend' them; rather trying to give the face of humans - the same goes for Palestinians (both in popular opinion viewed as Tolkiens Orcs or something):

1: The main problem we had with the Talibans was that they did not accepted western culture; all that we know of!!! Is that illegal? To think that its a sin to live a western life? Is religions illegal, and their (even if extremely interpreted) goal of salvation evil??

2: Afganistan happened to be a very poor nation, maybe to be considered a century after some western nations (partly due to exploation, unfair competition, war, different interests etc). How the fuck good were we, the allmighty and holy western nations, some 100-200 years ago? Is the fact that a nation (to big parts due to us) has fallen behind reason enough to hate them and kill the evil Talibans who have been leading them for a few years??

3: Remember that the Taliban was vastly much better than what was around before they came to power.

4: Western nations are also very oppressive - but in differance of the Talibans we dont, at least not usually, use concrete violence or 'more strict rules than anyone else'; creating the illusion that we are relatively better than the Talibans. But i can tell you - dare look under the shiny surface of western society; its far more smelling and ugly than any Talibans. Oppression of women? PLEASE! We have been the fucking masters of female opression until very recently!!!!!! And dare I say our very present disguting oppression of children?? Im writing an essay on that topic at the moment - quite abstract and hard to accept, so I will not try to explain that more here. The only differance between the western world and the Talibans is that we use SYMBOLIC violence; an abstract form of oppression that only ages of social research can destroy; we have SO much in our everyday life that we think is good and natural - but before we die of old age we will puke on many of them.........

5: The way things turn out in Afaganistan now, its very likely we will leave them to their destiny once again - and they will be back to the awful time that were before the Talibans<span id='postcolor'>

[bn880 5]

Well yes I am saying the things about the Taliban because of my views of the US, but still, they supported the Taliban in the past against the Soviets, and I think the US was actually mainly responsible for putting them in power.

I really don't know the real truth behind how the Taliban operated, but I have information that suggests what goes on in Pakistan is not very different. Remember how the US went from sanctions to grants in Pakistan.

Basically the US seems to do what ever is good for them financially, even if it means controlling other nations and sacrificing lives.

I agree with you on the Jews in the US running the show. (if that's what you mean)

I'm really not trying to defend the Taliban, I just want others to see that they might be targeted by the mad cow.

I guess if you are German you also know that the US is trying to control the EU. It's like grand children telling their grand parents how to live.

Nuts.

[bn880 5]

Test

Ok.

Pukko, basically I understand your points, and I think it comes down to this: History repeats itself

That means in conflicts, culture etc.

As an example: In the United States of America, most people think they are far superior to their predecessors, who a couple generations ago used blacks as slaves, and women as slaves that could be used to mate with. The sad reality is people can not significantly change in two generations. That in turn means we are still pretty messed up.

So now when a group of people uses slavery and abuses women they would be severly punished in USA. Which means that USA would kick their own ass if they saw the USA of a couple generations ago.

It's kind of funny:

Lets say that USA #1 is the current USA in America. USA #2 is the USA of 1900 and it is located in Africa (right now).

USA #1 is going to bomb USA #2 with all they got and then install a new government.

haha

Anyway it may be hard to understand, but it makes sense.

[E6Hotel 0]

*furiously bites tongue in desperate attempt to avoid re-hashing old posts… willpower fades… succumbs to foolishly naÄve, American-centric, capitalist-oppressor, CNN-brainwashed mentality…*

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I guess so, but countries should try not to behave like bulls.<span id='postcolor'>

Mess with the bull, get the horns.  I know you guys love these little sound bite macho statements.  Heh.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Actually, Sadam never actually attacked the US.  Neither did the Taliban (Al-qada maybe), and don't forget the other conflcts (obvious or not).<span id='postcolor'>

“Maybe�  Healthy skepticism is good, but this is denial of reality.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Imagine if after 9/11 Germany refused the US to hand over it's citizens without proof, evidence or a case.  Would it be normal to wipe out Germany and the German govt? (that's if somehow Bin Laden and other people were actually German citizens)<span id='postcolor'>

Completely moot.  The German government apprehends terrorists; it does not harbor and train them.  Whether you believe the evidence is sufficient is up to you -- personally, I think the videotapes of bin Ladin gloating over the Cole attack should have been enough.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Palestinians never attacked the US, yet the US funnels weapons and money to the Jews.  So, I blame the US.<span id='postcolor'>

Actually, we fund Israel, not “the Jews.† It’s about form of government, not religion.  I find the whole "Jews are running America" argument very, very disturbing.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't clearly remember why the US decided to do everything they could to get rid of communism, and support the Taliban agains the Soviets.<span id='postcolor'>

We were trying to contain it, not get rid of it.  And the Taliban formed after the Soviets (and us meddling Americans) left.

BTW, the Taliban are indeed among the scum of the earth.  Western society isn't perfect, but I don't recall women having their brains blown out in stadiums by Ak-toting punks for having jobs, walking unaccompanied by men, or accidentally flashing their ankles.

Semper Fi

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Ouch Pukko, you are taking a very extreme opinion there. There are quite a lot Afghans to be found in Europe and their stories dont realy match with yours. The Taliban were a cruel regime. This "Look at us" strategy of yours doesnt help the people in Afghanistan. Fact is they opressed women, regularly prosecuted humans without any trial, raped children. Burned down whole villages on the front lines.... It is not a question of "western values" here, or maybe it is, but it is has nothing to do with the fact, that people were suffering. Afghanistan isnt a country like Europe a few centuries ago. In the 60ies more than 80% of all teachers in Kabul were women, and the country had in fact at reasonable economical health status.

So this country was kept in the middle age by the Taliban. Of course the war had initiated misery, but it sustained by the Taliban.

Whether we were better or not is not the issue here. Should women in Afghanistan still be stoned because we were not better. Should we let the Brasilians destroy the whole Rain-forrest, only because we also destroyed ours? You are basically saying that we are learning from history but it is not legitimate for us to teach others? How silly!

It is like telling a father that he is not allowed to forbid his son to drink alcohol, just because he was young he was an alcoholic? It is not about who has the right, but who is suffering. You are fully ignoring the greatfulness of the Afghans (not only on TV) for the "liberation", whether it will last or not, and instead you are saying "we didnt have the right". Well, sometimes you need to take your right to help others!

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ May 21 2002,18:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well yes I am saying the things about the Taliban because of my views of the US, but still, they supported the Taliban in the past against the Soviets, and I think the US was actually mainly responsible for putting them in power.

I really don't know the real truth behind how the Taliban operated, but I have information that suggests what goes on in Pakistan is not very different.  Remember how the US went from sanctions to grants in Pakistan.

Basically the US seems to do what ever is good for them financially, even if it means controlling other nations and sacrificing lives.

I agree with you on the Jews in the US running the show. (if that's what you mean)

I'm really not trying to defend the Taliban, I just want others to see that they might be targeted by the mad cow.

I guess if you are German you also know that the US is trying to    control the EU.  It's like grand children telling their grand parents how to live.

Nuts.<span id='postcolor'>

I agree.

But in Case of the Taliban the US by luck had to hit the authentic "bad guys", the Taliban.

(that is why Bush has to come with 600 of his own body-guards to visit germany and needs several thousand german policemen, while Clinton was able to take a trip through the Bars with only little protection. We are not gonna cheer to Bush like we did with Clinton. Actually why doesnt he stay at home. Send us Clinton or Carter, they are decent men! )

[Pukko 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ May 21 2002,18:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ouch Pukko, you are taking a very extreme opinion there. There are quite a lot Afghans to be found in Europe and their stories dont realy match with yours. The Taliban were a cruel regime. This "Look at us" strategy of yours doesnt help the people in Afghanistan. Fact is they opressed women, regularly prosecuted humans without any trial, raped children. Burned down whole villages on the front lines.... It is not a question of "western values" here, or maybe it is, but it is has nothing to do with the fact, that people were suffering. Afghanistan isnt a country like Europe a few centuries ago. In the 60ies more than 80% of all teachers in Kabul were women, and the country had in fact at reasonable economical health status.

So this country was kept in the middle age by the Taliban. Of course the war had initiated misery, but it sustained by the Taliban.

Whether we were better or not is not the issue here. Should women in Afghanistan still be stoned because we were not better. Should we let the Brasilians destroy the whole Rain-forrest, only because we also destroyed ours? You are basically saying that we are learning from history but it is not legitimate for us to teach others? How silly!

It is like telling a father that he is not allowed to forbid his son to drink alcohol, just because he was young he was an alcoholic? It is not about who has the right, but who is suffering.  You are fully ignoring the greatfulness of the Afghans (not only on TV) for the "liberation", whether it will last or not, and instead you are saying "we didnt have the right". Well, sometimes you need to take your right to help others!<span id='postcolor'>

Ok, like I said, I did not mean to really defend them, rather give them the face of humans. And the main goal of this conflict is not to be creative about the Afgans situation; so far they have been quite lucky - only around 4000 civilian Afgans have been directly killed by the war - but I would not be surprised if we let them down again. And then they would wish to have the Talibans back.

There is nothing special about the Talibans, their alienation is just necessary for us to think we are so good and continue supporting our systems. The western society works by illusions - Hiding by showing, heard of that??

And as i said earlier, my mind lives in a (but not necessary 'the' ) society maybe 100 years ahead (quite necessary to be creative in social sciencies), and in that perspective our primitive western world is, if not worse, then not much better than the Talibans. Too abstract to explain what really mean here..

[Longinius 1]

"Fact is they opressed women, regularly prosecuted humans without any trial, raped children. Burned down whole villages on the front lines...."

Women are still opressed in Afghanistan and they were worse off before the Taliban. The opression of women in Afghanistan is not a Taliban thing, its a cultural thing. And people were given trials, according to the laws set down in the Koran. When did they rape children? Got any links to that? As for burning villages, heck, the US has done it, the Russians have done it. Not like that is something new.

"It is not a question of "western values" here, or maybe it is, but it is has nothing to do with the fact, that people were suffering. Afghanistan isnt a country like Europe a few centuries ago. In the 60ies more than 80% of all teachers in Kabul were women, and the country had in fact at reasonable economical health status.

So this country was kept in the middle age by the Taliban. Of course the war had initiated misery, but it sustained by the Taliban."

Wrong. The problems started before the Taliban got into power. They could take power because the country was so far down into the shit just about anything seemed like a better solution. The Taliban didnt turn it into a hell hole, they turned it into a slightly colder hell hole. Nothing more, nothing less.

"Should women in Afghanistan still be stoned because we were not better."

As long as China gets to execute prisoners with headshots and the US can use gas, lethal injections and what not why shouldn't they get to kill in the name of the state?

"Should we let the Brasilians destroy the whole Rain-forrest, only because we also destroyed ours?"

No, lets drop napalm on them!!

"You are basically saying that we are learning from history but it is not legitimate for us to teach others? How silly!

It is like telling a father that he is not allowed to forbid his son to drink alcohol, just because he was young he was an alcoholic?"

Yeah, cause we all know that forbidding children to do stuff, like drinking and smoking, really helps. Its not like it has the opposite effect most of the time...

"It is not about who has the right, but who is suffering. You are fully ignoring the greatfulness of the Afghans (not only on TV) for the "liberation", whether it will last or not, and instead you are saying "we didnt have the right". Well, sometimes you need to take your right to help others!"

OK. There are many homeless people suffering in the US. They are opressed. Lets bomb the US! The war in Afghanistan was not about freeing the people. Dont pretend it was even a factor, because it wasnt. If it had been, the Taliban would have been removed long ago.

[Guest]

Just from CNN: Another bomb blast in Israel. Many casulties, they say.

CNN Article

[Pukko 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ May 22 2002,21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Just from CNN: Another bomb blast in Israel. Many casulties, they say. <!--emo&

CNN Article<span id='postcolor'>

I thought about giving a comment, but:

..........................................................................................

...............................................................................

..........................................................................................

.......................... so what?  

[foxer 0]

I wasn't going post in this thread,but damn too much USA bashing going on here.Sure USA ain't perfect,but who is ? Why  do you bring stuff the USA did 50 years(or longeR) ago ? Do we say "fucking german and their nazis" ,"let go get all the arabs and throw them in an oven. ".No,but you people bring stuff back from vietnam days,and other crap.When the USA falls soo will europe,soo keep wishing when the USa falls,you'll be with us.Back then is not now,the world is not the same.Soo when you say america did the same in the past and it was wrong,what makes it right now ? I hate to say you people just want to bash the USA.

Anyways I don't know why we support israel.If israel was in europe though and palestine was some country in europe ,i bet you some money that we would have already bombed israel.But it's just not the USA fault for the problem in the middle-east.It's everyones fault,if the germans didn't kill the jews like they did ,jews will still be living in europe,if middle-east would atleast talk to israel,maybe they can work out a deal,palestine has no leader,they have groups of people that want to kill people,mostly civilians.

Anyways who cares.I sure don't,probably going be my last post in this thread ,unless i see alot more USA bashing.