(59857) - Sound Issues - Please Fix/To Be Done >>

[oktane 0]

I agree current SW implementations are too simplistic, but I predict we shall see a more advanced modelling (including HRTF functions and distance based filtering) in the years to come implemented in SW models. CPU power to do this is already here, you only need some manpower to implement this.

Do you mean the route of going with enviromental software DSP similar to what valve had done with HL2 engine? I think everyone can agree that that had great sound, its a good example of what you can do with software based effects but then again, Gabe & Co had basically unlimited resources. :D

Do you think you would try something like that in house (custom xAPOs?) or wait for MS to implement it as a part of the built in XA2 filters? Did you guys make it to siggraph this year? I only grok a little of this but it might be interesting to you http://www.cs.unc.edu/~lakulish/Papers/2009-sigmm.pdf

Looks like most of the examples are smaller environments though.

PS: I do not miss the old 'crackle and pop' of HW acceleration from OFP/Arma. :P

Edited November 6, 2009 by oktane

[bangtail 0]

I said nothing about emulation. In general I agree that 3rd parties 'emulation' of eax is crap. Usually because it can only emulate EAX 2 and such. I agree it is superior to 'nothing', in old games.. nobody is debating that. Of course its better, there was no alternative then. (alternative now: software based, multicore cpus, new DX, etc)

But EAX in these days itself is crap, for the simple reason that it is a closed system that cannot be used by other manufacturers. (without poor emulation, why add more layers?) You may stick to your guns about EAX but game developers know better.. unless they have a deal with Creative (that does happen frequently, hardware vendors pay to have features added to help sell their wares) But hardware acceleration has been dead imo since Vista and the new audio pipeline came out. (you can still use openAL to get back HW accel) For effects, you can do a lot more with software and the cpu power is there to spare these days, and a non hardware effect solution works on all platforms. What is a good reason they should support an outdated and proprietary thing like EAX? Just the same, while I would like native ambx support, there isn't a good reason they should put that in either, its niche in the grand scheme.

Implementing closed, hardware bound effects like EAX, properly or not, is a waste of any developers time at this point in time and into the future. DirectSound is now Xaudio2, which is what BIS is using. And it simpifies a lot of things, including *gasp* console porting.

This new OS pipline is for the best, it is long overdue. Now we have almost perfectly uniform sound across all platforms (when drivers are up to snuff). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Audio_Architecture

Also, just because XYZ sounds better, is not an indication of the pipeline chosen. Consider that BIS retooled their whole audio engine.. it is more likely that your issue is their growing pains with their new sound implementation. Comparing the two engines is apples to oranges, they needed to modernize it for modern OS (and console) support and they did so. If they had two separate sound engines in the codebase, that would be a nightmare. At some point they just needed to make a choice and sever the limb. :D

So old games sound better on your card with (old) EAX, that's a given. You will still see the majority of newer games using XAudio2.. that's just the way it is now. :( If you have a complaint, you can't really blame BIS for updating their code to make the most of the new DirectX and getting rid of the OpenAL. Creative has been slow to update OpenAL among other issues. Devs are corralled, along with other developers, to use what MS says 'will be' and has already become the new standard since Vista/7, not to mention what makes logical sense to a dev that had planned a console version. You do have a complaint if there are bugs in BIS's sound engine, but they have been fixing them promptly. (give them a break already?)

EAX and inconsistent HW acceleration and buggy creative drivers are all dead hopefully. Long live, UAA/DirectX, which provides great 3d audio and effects for ALL people.. not just people with Creative cards.

Not to mention, from what I've personally seen and has been echoed by many: Creative treats its users and developers like garbage.

PS: I don't mean to jump around a lot, but I want to make clear EAX != Hardware Acceleration (old DirectSound3d). Two separate things, but both not supported by ArmA2. They are a little wound around each other though, because without Creatives openAL library, no HW acceleration on modern os. OpenAL also allows for EAX.

AND, I don't want to start a flame war, I am just sounding off from a different perspective. And yes I have owned many creative products since my first sound blaster ISA card and still do. But UAA/XA2 is a really good thing for developers and users alike.

I never said EAX = Hardware sound. I used them in the same context because as you freely conceded, when they are used properly, they provide a better audio experience.

Creative is an awful company when it comes to customer support and judging by the fact that they haven't had any new products in a while as far as soundcards go, I'd say they are no longer at the forefront of PC audio.

I don't use Creative, I use Auzentech. Unfortunately, I am starting to tire of Auzentech because their driver releases are limited by Creative's and that seems to have slowed to 2 or 3 times a year and there are serious problems with the X-Fi and Win 7 that have not been addressed.

I'm not "blaming" BIS for anything, I simply don't like Xaudio2 and when compared to the hardware accelerated, EAX enhanced sound of OFP/A1, there is no comparison, Xaudio2 blows.

I specifically said that my post was NOT directed at you but you seem to have found a way to take it personally, while at the same time, making all kinds of assumptions.

To be clear, I take audio VERY seriously and I have invested heavily in headphones and speakers that reflect this stance. If you take any title that PROPERLY uses hardware sound and/or EAX and put it up against the Xudio2 engine (or software sound in general), the Xaudio2 engine comes up short.

There is NO game that I have played that compares to say Bioshock w/EAX or LotRo (and many others).

You are right, the current state of PC audio does allow for a more uniform approach and that's not necessarily a bad thing but it doesn't mean it's better in terms of actual audio quality, because it isn't.

I realise that EAX/HS are on their way out and I think it's a shame. The X-Fi is capable of a lot of effects that I have yet to hear under a software audio engine. When I do, I might revise my opinion.

As to your "popping and crackling" issues. I only ever experienced that on the Live, never on the Audigy or the X-Fi.

Edited November 6, 2009 by BangTail

[kklownboy 43]

...

As to your "popping and crackling" issues. I only ever experienced that on the Live, never on the Audigy or the X-Fi.

Yeah with AGP... Never had any issues with CL drivers after the xxx.18 or something 2007 nov in A1...

I feel/hear that there are less "voices/snds in A2 than A1...

[bangtail 0]

Yeah with AGP... Never had any issues with CL drivers after the xxx.18 or something 2007 nov in A1...

I feel/hear that there are less "voices/snds in A2 than A1...

Spot on.

Software audio is nowhere near as "detailed" at present and it's very noticeable between A1 and A2 (even OFP).

As Oktane said, it allows for a more unifrom approach to sound design but it certainly isn't better IMHO.

[oktane 0]

I never said EAX = Hardware sound.

I know, I was just clarifying that because I was using them somewhat ambiguously, nothing you said mate.

I'm not "blaming" BIS for anything, I simply don't like Xaudio2 and when compared to the hardware accelerated, EAX enhanced sound of OFP/A1, there is no comparison, Xaudio2 blows.

Okay, but this kind of stance serves to perpetuate 'the new sound engine sucks', and 'there was nothing wrong with the old system' threads. Mind I realize that you know the difference and why, but most gamers do not and will simply grab their pitchforks and start nonsense threads that rant 'we want the old sound engine back'. Supporting and writing code for what the current state-of-the pc gaming world is doing right now is okay in your book right? This is writing a game engine with the foresight that your users won't all be running XP with a niche sound card in it, which to me makes perfect sense.

I specifically said that my post was NOT directed at you but you seem to have found a way to take it personally, while at the same time, making all kinds of assumptions.

I'm not taking it personally! And yes I made all kinds of assumptions on why BIS may have chosen XA2, only they know really why they chose it.

To be clear, I take audio VERY seriously and I have invested heavily in headphones and speakers that reflect this stance. If you take any title that PROPERLY uses hardware sound and/or EAX and put it up against the Xudio2 engine (or software sound in general), the Xaudio2 engine comes up short.

Yes but this isn't relevant because hardware acceleration is basically dead on modern operating systems, unless you have a niche sound card and the wrapper API. I like audio too! I have a 7.1 surround system with twin subs just for my PC, and the only game I really play regularly is ArmA2. Devs will make the most of and master the Xaudio2 API, it will just take time.

the current state of PC audio does allow for a more uniform approach and that's not necessarily a bad thing but it doesn't mean it's better in terms of actual audio quality, because it isn't.

Okay, then what is BIS to do? I say, work on improving the new platform they have implemented. You make an assumption here that XAudio2 has worse audio quality than a creative card with extensions, which is highly debatable. The implementation of the sound engine is still left to the developers after they have chosen their API. (OpenAL, FMOD, Miles, XA2, etc)

The X-Fi is capable of a lot of effects that I have yet to hear under a software audio engine. When I do, I might revise my opinion.

HL2? I thought that had pretty awesome sound when it came out. A lot of games use s/w engines these days and they have good sound. Bioshock had stunning atmosphere, and a huge budget to boot, they even got an external company to do the sound effects.

Regardless, I would not blame the API. It is probably not XAudio2's, but rather a lack of manhours relegated to the audio engine. The point of my post was to try to explain why BIS may have chosen XAudio2 and why EAX is a dead end road imo. Yes, it sounded good on old games, but it seems they had to move on.

All about the implementation man. Look at it this way, replace all the words Xaudio2 with DirectSound2, because that's what it really is. Is directsound crap? I am sure that BIS cares about audio, otherwise they would not have touted their new multilayered sound implementation. The level of detail in BIS's sound engine is a huge upgrade over the old one. Yes it has positioning problems and some weak samples. But it isn't easy for a basically indie developer to get that all perfect like EA would in BioShock or whatnot. How can you expect perfection on the first try with pretty limited resources compared to your competitors?

I know they will make it sound better, it is in their best interests to do so. But it is not in their best interests to use an API that is pretty much a sinking ship or use an API that may provide awesome sounding extensions, but only for people that own a special card and have a 100% trouble free setup. Also, some api's require licensing and licensing fees, basically they are called middleware.

It will get better, have some faith in them. ;) Did you know that in A2, tire noises have additional layered sounds for different terrain surface types?

Your beef is not with XAudio2 I think, it's with ArmA2's new sound engine which feeds it.

Edited November 6, 2009 by oktane

[bangtail 0]

Your beef is not with XAudio2 I think, it's with ArmA2's new sound engine which feeds it.

My issue is with software sound in general and again, as I very clearly stated in my previous post, Xaudio2 != hardware audio/EAX.

I fully accept that I am in the minority, but as you said, it's because most people don't know the difference.

Bioshock utterly destroys HL2 with regards to soundscape. HL2 is ok but it's not in the same class. Bioshock is a game where EAX is used to it's fullest extent. I've yet to hear anything comparable in software.

Edited November 6, 2009 by BangTail

[Alex72 1]

Ok heres my distortion video. Latest beta 59928. You cant miss the "screezch / beep" feelin. :) The distortion comes when my head is facing the source side ways. And it starts when im in front of the source. So in front and having one ear more turned towards the source. Thats how it can start. CAN, because it doesnt always happen. The distortion has since my rercording even managed to shut my sound totally off at one time. FLUSH regained the sound. More in the description.

Windows7 - coupled with the old Audigy 2 maybe is a mix of disaster. I have the latest Audigy 2 drivers.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBeGyft2Dck&hl=sv&fs=1&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBeGyft2Dck&hl=sv&fs=1&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Sorry mods if my youtube link is bad (too long)? Embed only seem to have 1 link - AFAIK.

Alex

[Dwarden 1124]

hmm i wasn't experiencing this issue on X-fi when i checked 7

[mr_centipede 31]

I also use X-Fi (xtreme music) never had the screeching, but got something like at the 4th secs. (the echoing bit) dont if its a bug or feature. but if I press ESC, then went back to game, the echoing is gone

[mrcash2009 0]

Well it looks like latest beta had all this in the works anyway, cant download yet but will test soon.

BTW this thread has grown, i was expecting it to be locked due to repeat info :) Thanks BIS for commenting here too, might as well be the "beta sound thread" now (then again if all is cool with new beta it might make this redundant).

Some nice nuggets of info too.

The best game that really nailed 3d sounds and eax was Raven Shield, the way it would reproduce room ambience / carpeted etc and also people walking above and below in a room with x/y was superb. Most immersive use of it even in stereo (As I had).

@Alex :

Windows7 - coupled with the old Audigy 2 maybe is a mix of disaster. I have the latest Audigy 2 drivers.

Yes indeed that might throw a spanner in the diagnostics :) Maybe throw an Xfi in and see? Edited November 6, 2009 by mrcash2009

[bangtail 0]

Well it looks like latest beta had all this in the works anyway, cant download yet but will test soon.

BTW this thread has grown, i was expecting it to be locked due to repeat info :) Thanks BIS for commenting here too, might as well be the "beta sound thread" now (then again if all is cool with new beta it might make this redundant).

Some nice nuggets of info too.

The best game that really nailed 3d sounds and eax was Raven Shield, the way it would reproduce room ambience / carpeted etc and also people walking above and below in a room with x/y was superb. Most immersive use of it even in stereo (As I had).

@Alex : Yes indeed that might throw a spanner in the diagnostics :) Maybe throw an Xfi in and see?

OMG, it's so funny you said that. I just reinstalled Raven Shield today and I was blown away.

The second Hostage rescue in the Alps actually sent chills up my spine with the floorboards creaking and the wind.

Only crumby thing is that EAX option stays greyed out which Im sure is to do with Win 7. I'm using Alchemy but it still won't allow me to check the box. Not sure if ALchemy overrides the in game setting as it sounds like it's being used but no way to be sure.

At any rate, wow, just wow and this is a 5 year old game.

[Alex72 1]

MrCrash: Maybe throw an Xfi in and see?

Belive me i would. My situation right now doesnt even let me throw some bucks out. The first chance i get i will throw out the whole pc and replace it. But for now im stuck this way.