Games portraying the "real horrors of war"

[Ether Dragon 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aculaud @ April 02 2002,15:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One interesting thing i feel i should point out and ask the OFP community at this point; I want to point out that we now have close to 60% of voters here that said they really did want ALL the horrors of war in their games, yet everyone whos ever been in combat before has said that its something you really DONT want to have in your games. Something iv just now been thinking about is that, if we really did have a game that real, would it still be a game?

Think about the nature of a game. A game entails fun. It entails excitement, joy, entertainment, in some cases physical excercise, and so forth. Does a game entail fear? Desperation? Guilt? Remorse? A strong sense of stress? The deaths of your loved ones, and quite possibly you too? Just something to think about....<span id='postcolor'>

My opinion is that you don't really need to see limbs and brain bits go spattering about in order to get a sense of what combat is like. War is not about the gore factor, it's more about the fear. You have to accept that you could die at any moment, from one of a hundred different ways, and there's nothing you can do about it. You just have to learn to soldier on and hope that your side doesn't get tripped up by an ambush or something. Battle fatigue isn't caused by the constant sound of shelling, it's caused by the constant fear that the next shell is going to land on you. You flinch at each explosion, expecting it to be "the one." When a soldier gets too focused on that, things go down hill.

I keep reading posts suggesting that real war means the addition of killing innocent women and children/civillians. Yes, depending on the situation civillians could get caught in a crossfire, but the forces involved in OF are primarily professional soldiers. I know for certain that American soldiers would detest the idea of killing innocents - intentionally or not, and I'm almost as certain that the same could be said of Soviet forces (no matter how much we villainized them in the Cold War.) Any soldier that took to killing civillians would be immediately taken back and court martialed - at the very least. I can well imagine his squad mates shooting him on the spot (heck, he's armed and just gone nuts.) Given that, I see little reason to include such scenarios in a game. Let that stuff play out in an anti-Vietnam movie, but that's hardly the purpose of a combat sim.

Beyond a certain point, gore is just added for the shock value. It's there to get the headlines and draw attention to the game. "Any publicity is good publicity?" From a combat perspective, you just have to know that your opponent is incapacitated, not that your shot took the back of his skull with it. I think that I'd prefer to see wounding similar to what is in Rogue Spear - a bullet sized red dot that shows where you hit your target. I'm more interested in where my shots hit than just seeing a mangled face.

[Aculaud 0]

rogue spear deffinitely hit a few nails right on the hnead, so to speak. Also notice the different levels of limping, depending on how you got shot in the leg, and in which leg and so forth.

[WKK Gimbal 0]

I think that's only possible because of the low level RS operates on. In a game where maybe 100 soldiers are fighting at once, it's not necessary (or resource friendly) to have 4 different limp animations.

[Aculaud 0]

i think youre right. We'd all have to get new computers if OFP were to become any more realistic than it is.

[scout 0]

does it really matter where and how r u hit?

its a tactical sim, and thats its greatness, u do the min to show reality, but it wont effect your tactical decisions if u see parts of limbs or not.

and yes, u could say that it would effect u in real life, but then u can just add the screams and the gurgles etc. and then u wont want to touch the computer for days.

i prefer more reality in behavior of the troops.

[Annihilator 0]

im not for seeing the true horrors of war, but what i would like to see is that the injuries actually "do" more then just hurt ur aim or mobility.

i had a tank shot land just behind and threw me to the ground...my character then screamed out for about a second...but after that i just kept on crawling as if nothing happened and hid in a bush

or when u hit a guy in the shoulder with an m16 and he just keeps running as if nothings happened...

or when ur injured lying on the ground, and a medic runs over, does his thing, and leave....u dont see a discouraged or infuriated look on his face or anything.

ive seen an AI get shot flipping out a LAW...put it away...go prone...stand back up...get shot again....and once more again and fall over dead...all in a few seconds...it looked so fake i almost thought it was a glitch or something the game didnt mean to happen

i guess what im asking for is for more convincing sounds (if ur not healed by a medic and got hit in the hand maybe u wince a little and try to shake off the pain) and that the AI be more involved with the mood of the game instead of a moving target that looks human.

jus my 2 cents worth

[IceFire 0]

Honestly, outside of the ethics involved in making the game show the "horrors of war". If the game actually did have enemies screaming and showing really horrific stuff, I don't think I would want to play it.

Not to mention how it would affect all the 10 year olds who play this game, I'm sure.

I wouln't not mind enemies falling down when they get hit, and being able to use bullets to stun enemies atleast when they get hit.

but to show the real emotional "horrors of war" and to have the bots screaming in agony for a while and having them all being glum. That kind of stuff affects people.

I do not think that people should become desentised to war and stuff by playing a game.

Honestly, I think that would be a very sick idea.

[Aculaud 0]

well, with all due respect, with an M rating, i dont think there are that many 10 year olds playing OFP. It wouldnt even just be the violence, you actually have to pay attention and know what to do. This games meant for a fairly mature audience all around.

I could really get behind a more realistic dammage\death system for infantry guys. The game deffinitely needs to be more responsive when it comes to getting hit, taking injuries, and yes, more animations would be good too.

But more than that, i think the area sensitive dammage needs heavy tweaking. Its a little discouraging when i shoot a guy four times before he dies with whats meant to be a sniper rifle. Or when i put one right in his chest, and it makes it look like he got shot right in the face. Now that i think about it, this is my biggest gripe about realism. Id just like to see area sensitive dammage get a lot better.

[USSoldier11B 0]

Yeah, no kidding Aculaud, One 7.62 round center mass will put a man down for sure, even with level IIIA body armor.

[Aculaud 0]

oh, totally. I think they should model ballistics better, like what was done in land warrior, so shots would be more accurate

[CirKutz 0]

As an Aussie we remember twice a year, ANZAC day and Rememberance Day.  I was at school at the time and our ANZAC day parade consisted of listening to a audio recording, taken in WW2.  The feeling when closing your eyes and how the sounds paints a picture was totall undescribable.  The sounds of artillery fire, screams of men, machine gun fire.  It was certainly a wake up to real life.

I think that to add sounds of when a squad member goes down, and calls out your rank/name and reaches towards you would be one of the most horrifying feelings to get from the game.  It won't scar you for the rest of your life, but help to recognise why so many soldiers, came back and won't talk about it or give reasons why so many have suffered psychologically since.

And if I could, I would enlist.  I did some really basic stuff, a few years ago but, I think that the guys here who have been to or seen war first hand will tell you that you are in a different state of mind.

I seen in another post that someone was mentioning movies. Have you noticed that everytime there is an 'intense' seen that the sound has a lot more bass. Its been shown that the lower pitch sounds helps to instill fear in people. The sound adds to the realism.

[Sith 0]

What we need is good IK (inverse kinematics) driven animations. Right now all anims in OFP are motion captured, thus rather limited in number. This is also the reason why a soldier using an AT launcher will get up first, before falling dead to the ground again...BIS simply didnt have time/cash to motion capture a death animation for every possible soldier pose.

A good IK system would for example make a soldier spin around when he gets hit in his shoulder, or make him get blown away by a near explosion.

Combine this with good movement animations (mo-caps) and you have some very realistic looking body physics in the game, able to adept itself to any situation possible.

But that's all just visual aspects of a game...the worst part of war is mostly psychological. Our mind recreates something similar to that when you make good use of graphics and sound to suggest something that really isnt there, for what you can make a player think is happening, will be much scarier to him that what actually is happening (AvP2 being a good example of that).

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Does a game entail fear? Desperation? Guilt? Remorse? A strong sense of stress? The deaths of your loved ones, and quite possibly you too? Just something to think about....<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, games do this, alot...but for some weird reason emotions like these are mostly used in games that take place in a surreal environment (sci-fi and fantasy). Few true war games have ever touched these features (except fear, which is the base on which most wargames build their gameplay).

[Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans 0]

I really hate to put this on the 10th page. How did we define "horrors of war"? I have read about "screaming" and "body parts-a-flying." That would be a nice touch. Sorry folks. I am calloused and unemotional, yet ethical and moral--the characteristics of a good officer. A effing video game is never going to be like reality so don't worry about it.

I love OPF because it is one of the most realistic combat games. I don't feel like I am in an arcade trying to score points—even though you are scored in OPF at your debriefing. Those of you who have Delta Force, when you shoot the terrorist sheiks, they scream and cry.

I want to thank the developers of OPF for not having "cut scenes" when you get shot. Anytime you got shot in Delta Force, there you had that cut scene. Delta Force is now, of course, on the shelf collecting dust.  

I am looking forward to Resistance so I can engage in guerilla warfare. FUN FUN FUN

[InqWiper 0]

There was one mission in Red Hammer where theere was a cut scene when U died. It was the mission where you were supposed to build up a defense in a town and prepare for incoming tank platoons. It was ok the firwst time but it was annoying when U had already died like 3-4 times and the speed was slowed down to like 0.5-0.1.

I havent noticed this thing about using more bass in parts that are supposed to make U scared in movies, I have just noticed the change in the music, the close ups and that there is alot of the surrounding area that you cant see so U will think that the danger could be anywhere.

[RedStorm 0]

I say, make it as 'war-like' as possible, I want to have emotions when you see a 'good AI friend' die! That's what you play games for, to escape from the real world for a bit, and 'live' in another world, and possibly do things you could have never managed or wanted to do in real life! I say, make the game as bloody as possible, make it as emotional as possible, make it 'scary'!. That would prove for some great gameplay!

NOTE: No, I'm no such a psycho who spends his entire day in front of the computer and who has no social life...oh wait, I am

[scout 0]

believe me, u dont want to know how its realy like.

hell, ive been through it and I dont want to be reminded of it.

[RedStorm 0]

Yes, I see, but this will always be a game. And people will still know the difference. I just want a great gaming experience.

[InqWiper 0]

RedStorm...scout sounds like he knows what he is talking about, wich I dont think you do. The people who have been in war and are posting here are all saying they dont want it in a game, maybe they would have thought just like you before they went into a war and saw what it was like. It would sure ass hell not be a great gaming experience for anyone if it was like the real thing. It might sound cool to be scared and have people running around screaming, but if you were in a war you would probably be surprised how much it sucks. I really dont want a game like that cuz I can imagine what it would be like, but its probably even worse then that.

[Aculaud 0]

I swear, i'm about two steps away from not even posting here anymore. This thread is out of hand!

Anyway, i'll agree with all the veterans here that "The Real Horrors of War" are something we'd never want in our games, i just think we could use a more responsive, more realistic dammage system.

[IceFire 0]

And lastly, I think that it is aggorant of us to even want to try to (or think that we can) experience what out soldiers who died in wars experienced by playing some dumb ol' game.

And I also think that it is morally wrong to do so.

We should always remember what they died for, that they died an honorable death for their country.

But we should not go and disgrace that by attempting to reproduce thier experiences in a game.

[Aculaud 0]

well, first off, i dont think every soldier had an honorable death, unfortunately. The poor souls who were the victims of exicution, and those who were slaughtered after they surrendered.

Also, why think of emulating their experiences as a disgrace? i would consider it an honour to imortalize what they fought for and won. I dont think it would be a good idea to imortalize that first bit i mentioned, however.

[Aculaud 0]

alright, fine, i'm still posting here. I still think is getting pretty far out there though

[Gorgi Knootewoot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WKK Gimbal @ Mar. 26 2002,11:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A game which really intrigued me, was Deus Ex, as it gave you a huge moral responsibility, especially in the very cool ending!

This kind of "interactive stress and paranoia" is cool. Let's have 100000x more of that in games!<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah, Deus Ex is unbeatable. The best game ever, with the best story-line told

Which ending did you choose?

I finished the game a few times, and i always choose to fuse together with super AI. I don't want to blow Area 51 up to get in the Darkage, and i sure don't want the Illuminati to get any power. So i always decide to get the absolute power myself. As my choice was set when i figured out the super AI had already taken control in Hongkong, and the people where trading and happy again.

[Aculaud 0]

Is it safe to say yet that i have started the longest most successful poll ever? lol

[Sith 0]

No, you simply opened a second thread on a topic I started (I seriously considered closing it when you started it a while back )

If you think this is a long thread/poll....go check out the offtopic forum