Lest we forget...

[von_paulus 0]

But that didn't happen. And it makes me angry that my country ruined that goodwill. I don't want to turn the thread into a discussion about that, but I do want to thank you people from around the world for your initial goodwill. It was incredible for this American to see, and it's something that I will never forget.

I hope that someday we can return to that state--albeit it under better circumstances.

It was not your country but the Bush administration who antagonized people.

It didn't help when he was reelected.

But people who on the other side of the Ocean who fall into that stupidity of seeing all Americans and the American culture as a synonymous of Bush are no better.

Since the Reagan era I've been witnessing to that kind of assessments in my own country. I've been arguing against this kind of thought and the danger that it can presents. It's pure prejudice. It's pure stupidity. Those people should go to one of those WWII cemetery's in Normandy filled with American soldiers.

[Baff1 0]

I can't believe people are still being killed over this crap.

People who had absolutely nothing to do with it.

It's been 8 years. Time to let the bloodrage subside.

Just let it end.

As for the guy above, Bush didn't do it on his own, every single American citizen backed him up. Some more than others I'll grant you.

It's not a case of evil Bush leading his people somewhere they didn't want to go, the whole country wanted to kill muslims and by the thousand.

Which is what they did.

I don't know about you, but I think they made their point.

[froggyluv 2136]

As for the guy above, Bush didn't do it on his own, every single American citizen backed him up. Some more than others I'll grant you.

What do you mean every single American backed him? Did every single Britain back him too? And all of the other countries involved in the slightest way in the Iraq/Afghanistan wars -all of those citizens as well?

It's not a case of evil Bush leading his people somewhere they didn't want to go, the whole country wanted to kill muslims and by the thousand.

Which is what they did.

Whats with your extreme all encompassing overstatements? I would have rather they caught OBL as not to make a martyr out of him

[Baff1 0]

Yes, every single person in Britain did back him too.

Some more than others.

Plenty spoke out against it, but all went along with it.

(Actually, not all, maybe a handful or two joined the Taliban...)

We fought along side Bush as a nation.

It's wrong to blame it all on individuals. That's not the way we operate.

And if you don't rememeber the sentiments of the American population after 9/11, you simply didn't know any of them or weren't alive at the time.

I'm sorry if you'd like me to build in caveats for all the "nice individual Americans" who didn't go along with what happened post 9/11. But it's too rosey eyed a view of history to accurately portray what happened.

The nation was outraged. They demanded blood and by god they took it.

And when they watched their bombs landing on completely innocent people on TV they were all pleased. As was I.

Funny old world.

Nowadays, once the world has labelled Bush evil and once the war in Iraq turned sour and holiday Americans got verbal abuse everywhere they visited, everyone wants to pretend that Bush wasn't massively popular after 9/11.

But he was. Massively.

Same old crap about the Nazi's. Once they lost everyone wants to pretend the German people didn't all love and support them. But they did. Hitler didn't do it all on his own he had a nation of like minded and willing people to back him up.

Sorry if that's too all encompassing and sweeping a statement for you again but to sell it any other way misrepresents history.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Baff1

[froggyluv 2136]

Well I agree with your overall point in that the majority of the nation was hit with the knee-jerk reaction of revenge but it is still important to note that the Bush administrations successful attempt to use Joseph Goebbels like propaganda tactics didn't work on everyone. Yes, many including myself, wanted to see the perpetrators of 911 brought to justice, but were outraged at the attempts to not so subtley draw Saddam and Iraq into that equation. It is well known that the Neo-Cons had been planning a 'restructuring' of the Middle East for some time and the attack in New York provided the perfect catalyst to forward those plans.

Personally, I wasn't happy in the slightest when bombs started dropping...

[Baff1 0]

I was.

Even though I knew they were dropping on no one involved in 9/11.

America had a statement to make to the world. And they did so. It needed to be made.

Better they did so in Afghanistan than anywhere important too.

Outraged or not. Convinced or not.....You paid your taxes. You personally contributed.

There were plenty of outraged persons in Britain too, but when push came to shove they all went along with it. They all participated.

We all participated.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Baff1

[froggyluv 2136]

Outraged or not. Convinced or not.....You paid your taxes. You personally contributed.

You assume much.

There were plenty of outraged persons in Britain too, but when push came to shove they all went along with it. They all participated.

We all participated

Guilt by citizenship? Don't buy it. If every citizen in the world is to be held personally responsible for the actions of their Government, even if they devote their lives to dissent, then there's a lot of butchering to go around in the name of rightful prosecution.

Me, I left the country and moved to the Carribean when Bush got re-elected.

[GoOB 0]

How did a thread about paying respects to the victims of a terrorist attack devolve into this psuedo political squabble? Say something pertinent to this particular topic. I know this is an internet forum and that I am no moderator - But by goodness, have some sense of tact and discuss the finer points of international terrorism and the "war" being waged upon it in the topic rather aptly titled; "War Against Terror".

In any matter - It's hard to beleive it's been eight years, I still remember it like it was yesterday, and to some extent, it still feels surreal to watch the videos of the aircraft colliding with the twin towers... Having been to New York both pre- and post-attack is also something that to me, makes the event yet harder to fathom. Needless to say, my thoughts are with the folk who suffered through these attacks and it's aftermath.

Edited September 13, 2009 by GoOB

[von_paulus 0]

Same old crap about the Nazi's. Once they lost everyone wants to pretend the German people didn't all love and support them. But they did. Hitler didn't do it all on his own he had a nation of like minded and willing people to back him up.

Sorry if that's too all encompassing and sweeping a statement for you again but to sell it any other way misrepresents history.

I'm afraid that I might disagree on that. It's not so black and white.

Things in life have more gray tones. What did the Germans support, did they really give a carte blanche to Hitler by electing him in 1933? What happened after the Reichstag fire was a real coup d'état in all senses. The government was dictatorial and ruled by force (remember the Night of the Long Knives) and fear. Any sign of resistance was dealt "properly".

What you're implying is that there is no individual guilt but only collective guilt in state matters. And for that is enough to contribute with our taxes.

No, I can't agree with that. It's too black and white.

Sorry for the off topic.

[Zipper5 74]

Wow, you can never have a nice little memorial topic on the internet I guess. Every jackass has to turn it into some political flame war, completely disregarding the original intent of remembering the innocent victims of a horrible crime.

Because of that, and because the 11th has come and gone, can a moderator close this please? I find that people are just displaying outright disrespect and are turning it into something that should be in the politics thread.

[Alex72 1]

I remember that day vividly as well. I was at work building a 6000 connection network for a research laboratory (KI) here in Sweden. Me and my co-worker were in one of the rooms where the backbone went through and we were welding optic fibers together. The radio was on and all of a sudden the music stopped for news and they said "a plane has hit the world trade center". Me and my friend looked at eachother and went wtf?! Did the pilot drink too much the day before? Engine failure? Health problems? Because we thaught initially that it was like a cessna or similar small plane, and we thaught it didnt do any damage to the building. Only that the pilot must have died wich was sad ofcourse. Still pretty big eye opener as in my mind i sat there at work thinking how that must have happened and how it must have looked IRL. Also if anyone on the streets were hurt etc.

...Then the other plane... We looked at eachother again, but this time it was more WTF?!?! The news still didnt say/know it was a terrorist attack so it was ofcourse very confusing, and i remember we both got chills down our spines thinking what the fuck is going on? We went home and turned on the tv and got the third shock as we saw it was commersial airline jets hitting one building each. Now it was quite evident this was meant to happen and no accidents.

The news rolled on every tv channel over and over again and it scared a lot of people im sure. Even i had the thaught for a second "ok do i arm myself now or what?".

That day will be remembered for ever.

Alex

[Placebo 29]

Well then.