Does the grass effect the AI, is my game fudged or am i insane?

[NeMeSiS 11]

Since i always felt a bit like the AI had a harder time spotting me when i was in grass then when i wasnt, i decided to just check it instead of calling everyone who didnt agree with me (And that seems to be alot of people) stupid/blind/liars/noobs.

I tried to make a video but my PC cant handle ArmA2 + Fraps at the same time.

For what it matters:

Difficulty setting: AI skill: 0.7

Terrain detail: Very high

Let me post the mission situation:

Nothing fancy, just me, a standard east squad with a move waypoint 3 meters in front of me, a 'west detected by east' trigger which shows me the distance between me and the squad leader and another trigger which i use to activate camera.sqs

My initial position:

My initial position from fist person perspective:

Note that i have a hole in the foliage in front of me, also, because my position is 90 degrees towards the enemy my legs kinda 'stick out' if the grass isnt long enough.

And here you can see i was spotted with 30 meters between me and their squadleader (He is still waving his arm):

As this wasnt very beneficial for my health and i got quite varying distances (On avarage about 40 i guess) when i tried this very same mission on various places on the island, i tried to hide myself the best way i could.

The i kinda messed the screen up, but you can see i crawled backwards a bit, then turned 90 degrees, then about 2 meters backwards again and then moved as close to the high grass in front of me as possible:

---

Part 2 will follow in a second post as i am limited to 5 images per post, please do not post until i post again. (I am also adding a poll, so please wait a few minutes)

Edited July 28, 2009 by NeMeSiS

[NeMeSiS 11]

Part 2

Here the squad has reached their waypoint, in this case they still havent spotted me. (I tried this scenario at least 10 times, this was the first time they didnt spot me at all, usually he noticed me within a few seconds after reaching his waypoint)

After waiting for a while i just decided to stand up, and obviously got shot:

Then just to check what happened without grass at all, i dragged the entire mission to the airfield:

As you can see, i was spotted before i could even lie down to hide myself.

Afterwards i placed myself further away and let the squad move towards me, then the distance was usually between 70 and 90 meters.

EDIT: Mission download: http://www.easy-share.com/1906964905/mission.sqm

Edited July 28, 2009 by NeMeSiS

[Simon C 0]

I'd be very quick about sorting some of those images, as some are over 100Kb, which isn't permitted on the forums. I also think that the AI saw you more easily on the tarmac because the ground is flatter, the AI doesn't see grass.

[NeMeSiS 11]

I'd be very quick about sorting some of those images, as some are over 100Kb, which isn't permitted on the forums. I also think that the AI saw you more easily on the tarmac because the ground is flatter, the AI doesn't see grass.

But there was a 27 meter difference in spottingdistance when i moved about 2 meters on a flat surface. ;)

Also, the thumbnails arent over 100kb.

[ProfTournesol 956]

You're insane :cancan:

Sorry i couldn't help :D

[CrazyAviator 10]

I have no idea what we are talking about. If you are saying the AI has a harder time seeing you through the grass, then I would have to say yes.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Looks like thinks aren't looking good for your sanity NeMeSiS. :j:

[NeMeSiS 11]

Looks like thinks aren't looking good for your sanity NeMeSiS. :j:

Obviously this whole topic is just an excuse to be sure if i am insane or not.

But all seriousness aside, i would really like some feedback on this, as i really am quite conviced that the grass does at least slow down the AI detection, and may actually have all the proper LODs this time to block the view without a lame floating green texture like in ArmA1.

EDIT: And i mean, Simon C's way of thinking is exactly why such (Possibly) misunderstandings come to exist:

Pic has 167kb written on it? -> Oh it must be over 100kb!

AI shot me trough grass? -> Oh the grass must be invisible to the AI!

Edited July 28, 2009 by NeMeSiS

[Taurus 20]

YourThe game is fucked.

AI aren't affected by grass.

They see right through it...

i.e. they play with "Terrain detail: Very low"

[edit]

The "lame" floating layer you're talking about was a good thing, BIS needs to bring it back to Arma2

AI in Arma didn't care about grass either, that's where the problem lies.

[NeMeSiS 11]

YourThe game is fucked.

AI aren't affected by grass.

They see right through it...

i.e. they play with "Terrain detail: Very low"

[edit]

The "lame" floating layer you're talking about is a good thing, BIS needs to bring it back to Arma2

AI in Arma didn't care about grass either, that's where the problem is.

Ive heard that dozens of times in this forum, but can you explain what is going on in my opening posts then?

EDIT: And about your edit: AFAIK the only reason we needed that lame floating texture (I liked that it worked, i hated how it looked) was because the clutter doesnt/didnt have a LOD that blocked the AI view.

Edited July 28, 2009 by NeMeSiS

[maruk 80]

As a matter of fact and unlike popular belief, the AI is affected by grass in Arma 2. There is approximation for clutter surrounding every unit affecting how well the AI can see it.

As always, there is a room for improvements in fidelity, so feel free to complain (but probably with better words, can you?)

That "lame" layer as present in Arma 1 was not very compatible with new rendering system and we are trying to come up with a better and more accurate solution but that of course is only visual effect important for human players, AI is unfair and doesn't use image recognition from the real rendering of game world :p

YourThe game is fucked.

AI aren't affected by grass.

They see right through it...

i.e. they play with "Terrain detail: Very low"

[NeMeSiS 11]

Thank you for your response.

Well that is settled then. :p

Wait, how approximate is it? Cause i mean... I wasnt spotted with them right on top of me (Just check the screenshot), but i cannot replicate this in an area with lower grass. (And i assume that 'approximate' means something like 'extra camouflage/less AI sensivity per cluttertype, but i think i was still in the same type of clutter when i was 2 meters to the right.

Or do you mean 'approximate viewblockLOD shapes'?)

Edited July 28, 2009 by NeMeSiS

[BKnight3 0]

As a matter of fact and unlike popular belief, the AI is affected by grass in Arma 2. There is approximation for clutter surrounding every unit affecting how well the AI can see it.

As always, there is a room for improvements in fidelity, so feel free to complain (but probably with better words, can you?)

That "lame" layer as present in Arma 1 was not very compatible with new rendering system and we are trying to come up with a better and more accurate solution but that of course is only visual effect important for human players, AI is unfair and doesn't use image recognition from the real rendering of game world :p

I'm curious on how this would effect a multiplayer game, with some players playing with grass and some without.

[Guest]

I am surprised some of the rather silyy posts in this thread, i think its a very valid topic, and the poster had a good point!

Thanks Marul for posting here, glad that you could clear this up a bit. I have always felt the AI are effected by grass, although i would agree they aren't effected enough.

Hopefully in upcoming patches they can tweek it up a bit, but i am not too disapointed!

[Taurus 20]

As a matter of fact and unlike popular belief, the AI is affected by grass in Arma 2. There is approximation for clutter surrounding every unit affecting how well the AI can see it.

Well fair enough, but I'm yet to see that.

Maybe the problem is that the AI hear you too well, I don't know.

Id make a example mission of this(again) and post here, but basically.

Find a flat spot anywhere with alot of grass, that' be easy.

Then put a cargo container somewhere.

Put your soldier behind it.

and then about 200 meters away, put an enemy AI soldier.

Create a WP for him to reach the container.

"preview"

Go prone.

Move infront of the container where you know the AI will appear from.

Lay still, wait, and be killed.

Now tell me, how could he possibly know that I'm covering there, and shoot me in the face without me seeing him?

do I smell?

As always, there is a room for improvements in fidelity, so feel free to complain (but probably with better words, can you?)

Yes I have complained more elaborately about this issue since the grass was first introduced in Arma.

But to no avail.

First the AI didn't care about smoke grenades.

That was fixed by the community.

Now its the grass amongst other things which needs to be looked at.

That "lame" layer as present in Arma 1 was not very compatible with new rendering system and we are trying to come up with a better and more accurate solution but that of course is only visual effect important for human players, AI is unfair and doesn't use image recognition from the real rendering of game world :p

Finally we got an answer to why it was removed.

As I wrote, it was a good thing and made it possible for units to hide in the grass at a distance.

I wish you good luck in finding a new "rendering layer" soon, and that the AI will be affected by it too.

My issue with this game is the general impression, and me hoping that much for Arma2 its an understatement to say I was unimpressed, Arma2 has a feel of it being rushed to release.

I have removed the DVD from my driver, and looking at the CIT's, waiting for patch 1.0.3, and apparently summoning the CEO of Bohemia Interactive to this thread, what a night!

Edited July 28, 2009 by Taurus

[seba1976 98]

I also think that the AI saw you more easily on the tarmac because the ground is flatter, the AI doesn't see grass.

IIRC - in OFP at least - the visibility settings were per unit class, and they included different number for different surfaces were the unit were standing. So just as a unit is less visible to the AI if it's lying on the ground than crouching or standing, units are also more "visible" to other units if they are on roads, than off roads.

So I guess what Maruk is talking about is the same principle only with more "types" of ground. It would be simple, effective enough, and would produce the right illusion of concealment - and the OP would be the proof :p.

EDIT: I forgot an important conclusion. If this is the concept implemented, you can't really setup any scenario to prove if it's the grass that's blocking the AI view, or if your visibility has been lowered down because you're over a kind of terrain that does that. Except you can put some grass objects over the tarmac...

Edited July 28, 2009 by seba1976

[Cheeba 10]

The problem lies in how far draw distance on grass is. Any encounters under that distance will result in what people are trying to prove here, that the AI is indeed hindered by foliage until they spot you. I've been shot through bushes enough to know there is a problem with the AI and the alleged x-ray vision, just maybe not until they are aware of your presence.

However encounters past the grass draw distance results in the AI seeing a perfectly flat landscape with no grass and a lone soldier laying there easily identifiable, the same thing can be seen by the player (the AI out in the open with no grass).

[Noraf 0]

Well fair enough, but I'm yet to see that.

Maybe the problem is that the AI hear you too well, I don't know.

Id make a example mission of this(again) and post here, but basically.

Find a flat spot anywhere with alot of grass, that' be easy.

Then put a cargo container somewhere.

Put your soldier behind it.

and then about 200 meters away, put an enemy AI soldier.

Create a WP for him to reach the container.

"preview"

Go prone.

Move infront of the container where you know the AI will appear from.

Lay still, wait, and be killed.

Now tell me, how could he possibly know that I'm covering there, and shoot me in the face without me seeing him?

do I smell?

Well, try this : bring a friend of you with you, go outside and find a field with some midhigh gras on.

Lay down in the gras, and get your friend to walk towards you, and the first to spot the other calls out.

Change possitions, and try again.

Who got spottet first? the one lying down or the one walking?

Remember, you should be laying still, and don't separate the gras infront of you ( since you can't do that ingame either ), you can ofcourse flatten the gras, but you'll get more easy to spot that way aswell....

The person walking has a better chanse of seeing the one laying prone first, since his fov isn't limited by the gras mm in front of his eyes....

Personaly, i do like that i can stay undetected from the ai, as long as i stay stil, low, and not directly in their path ( aftherall, if you're in a position that let the enemy walk directly on top of you, you've chosen the wrong hiding place )

@ the tread started : couldn't help it, had to vote for the insanity.... aftherall, giving us that option... :p

[S_Z 0]

I can buy that the gras is effecting the AIs ability to spot you, however once they do the gras does not seem to be help much for you.

I did some tests where put myself prone in a flat area with alot of gras and an enemy group moving towards me slowly. I then shoot in the air to get their attention and make them go prone too (they are still quite far away). I roll around a bit to change my location. From my view I can see nothing but gras. As soon as the AI spot my new location im dead in 1 to 3 shots. This from an AI that also is prone, far away with alot of gras around him. He should not be able to kill me in just a couple of shots.

However if I only use one enemy soldier and run the same "mission" the AI seem to react better. He usually does not go prone an shot me instantly but instead run for cover and trying to get closer.

Im guessing when using a group solders that are not prone can report my location to the ones who are prone? If so they are a bit too good at reporting positions...

[NeMeSiS 11]

@ the tread started : couldn't help it, had to vote for the insanity.... aftherall, giving us that option... :p

Kylania was the first one to have both answers correct, everyone else (Including myself) either picked just one of the correct answers, or the middle one which was of course completely wrong.

Congratulations kylania! You can pick a prize from this list

Im guessing when using a group solders that are not prone can report my location to the ones who are prone? If so they are a bit too good at reporting positions...

I am pretty sure that in OFP1 and ArmA1 the group 'shared' their knowledge of their positions of enemies. So if one of them saw you, all of them knew where you are.

This may very well still be the case in ArmA2, but it would cost me at least another hour to test it so i wont. :p

[Placebo 29]

Title edited, don't swear in thread titles please.

[Momaw 10]

I have to agree that grass helps the AI not *detect* you, in that you can crawl around quietly and the AI will be totally unaware. However, the AI quite obviously knows exactly where you are the instant you fire a (non-suppressed) shot. I have been killed numerous times by the AI shooting at me through brush and tall grass as I was trying to use a sniper rifle. The sound-based detection is much too good and accurate. As such, suppressed weapons are really the only way to get the AI to "fight fair": they know they're being shot at, and move to take cover, but they don't instantly and magically zero in on you.

Again: grass blocks line of sight, but once the AI "knows" where you are, line of sight is irrelevant.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Momaw

[bravo 6 0]

I only believe Clutter (as you call grass or tall grass) block AI sights when the developer ohara or any other official Dev say it Officially, until then the Clutter don NOT work properly, ie, they do NOT block AI sight and not hide you from them.

Sorry but for me this thread is stupid, meaningless and the available options in it are even worse.

Too bad this thread was not created for serious purpose. :(

Would be much better if it could be reformulated with direct and better options mentioning the respective patch.

EDIT: I just hope Maruk and others understand and believe how serious and important this grass incomplete issue and feature is for the true core fans! Also hope they really find a solution in a future patch like ohara said to me once. Hope hes words were not just to shut me up about this subject. This needs to be correctly fixed like we want.

Edited July 29, 2009 by bravo 6

[Baxalasse 10]

When you get assigned a target you will get the red target square even if the target moves behind cover (hills/grass/building) you will still get a pretty good indication where it is. If the target halts, you often can fire at that position (if you have clear sight), and take the target out without seeing it. I always thought that the AI will "see" the same thing, and why shouldn't it utilized that same approach?

I'm definitely not convinced that the grass conceals you enough!

Edited July 29, 2009 by Baxalasse

[mils 10]

I only believe Clutter (as you call grass or tall grass) block AI sights when the developer ohara or any other official Dev say it Officially, until then the Clutter don NOT work properly, ie, they do NOT block AI sight and not hide you from them.

Sorry but for me this thread is stupid, meaningless and the available options in it are even worse.

Too bad this thread was not created for serious purpose. :(

Would be much better if it could be reformulated with direct and better options mentioning the respective patch.

EDIT: I just hope Maruk and others understand and believe how serious and important this grass incomplete issue and feature is for the true core fans! Also hope they really find a solution in a future patch like ohara said to me once. Hope hes words were not just to shut me up about this subject. This needs to be correctly fixed like we want.

depending on how they place grass, (I would assume a area is laid in the mesh, which generates the grass) that would know the height of the grass, then just lower the players target height by that amount, (in essence sinking the player below the mesh LOS wise) which when standing is still above the los of the ground, but when laying down your below.

not glamorous but would probably work with the existing tech.