Did "After Montignac" get harder?

[Anamon 10]

I am aware of the countless topics and FAQ entries on "After Montignac", but I have a different question. I never really knew what all the fuzz was about quite honestly, because back in the day I never had too much trouble with the mission, played it through several times even in Veteran mode. I think I must have been playing on OFP v1.30 or something around that.

I was just playing through the original campaign again with the unpatched original v1.00 version and again, didn't have much trouble. What I always did was heading for the south end of the forest you start out in, avoiding patrols as good as possible, and then crouching along the trees and bushes towards Figari, carefully avoiding the patrol and the BMP. In Figari, I took the parked car and drove towards the new evac zone, got out as close to the forest as possible and ran towards it. Maybe used a retry or two, but it always worked.

After having played it through I figured I wanted to play the addons too, which I never owned back in the day, so I got myself a used copy of the GOTY edition. I have this one patched to the latest v1.96 now. I copied over my savegames, and as I tried to replay the "After Montignac" mission on v1.96, I was stumped on how hard it suddenly was, to the point of being nigh impossible to beat. I can no longer avoid the patrols in the forest, they can spot me across the forest even if I'm behind a bush (I don't even see them, but suddenly hear 2 gunshots and I'm dead). Avoiding the BMP has become a lot harder - it can now spot me from about 400m distance even if I'm crawling. And the HIND now ends up hovering over Figari, making the use of a vehicle a complete no-go; there's no way of driving southwards without attracting the attention, and missiles, of the chopper.

I was only able to solve the mission by cheating a little - deleting my savegames to get multiple slots, and doing trial&error from bush to bush, testing out where I will be detected and where I won't. It first felt a little cheap, but I don't feel bad about it anymore - I could deal with improved AI, but the way the BMP spots me crawling on the other side of a valley or through a bush seems pretty unfair.

I can't believe that it is just coincidence that the mission played out a little differently, because I tried and failed it so often. For a while I even wondered if I might somehow have triggered FADE, but then I read that this would be made obvious in a message during setup. So did the mission really get that much harder over the course of newer patches?

[rellikki 7]

The AI has been updated some bit in the latest patches, compared to Cold War Crisis version, so yes, that might affect the gameplay of that mission.

Personally I just grab the LAW launcher from one of the dead bodies at the begin of the mission, then head back to Provins and take out the BMP and steal the UAZ stationed there. Then I take the road to South-East until I reach Morton.

[stgn 39]

took me a couple of days to complete the first time I didn't know about the UAZ so I took on the russians guns blazing and finaly made it, but the mission feels abit different played using resistance.

STGN

[R0adki11 3949]

I know what u mean i guess resistance brought in all the ai changes etc.

[sanctuary 19]

After having played it through I figured I wanted to play the addons too, which I never owned back in the day, so I got myself a used copy of the GOTY edition. I have this one patched to the latest v1.96 now. I copied over my savegames, and as I tried to replay the "After Montignac" mission on v1.96, I was stumped on how hard it suddenly was, to the point of being nigh impossible to beat. I can no longer avoid the patrols in the forest, they can spot me across the forest even if I'm behind a bush (I don't even see them, but suddenly hear 2 gunshots and I'm dead). Avoiding the BMP has become a lot harder - it can now spot me from about 400m distance even if I'm crawling. And the HIND now ends up hovering over Figari, making the use of a vehicle a complete no-go; there's no way of driving southwards without attracting the attention, and missiles, of the chopper.

Are you playing this mission with a mod ?

Some mods increase the AI spotting and hearing abilities to roughly equal the ones of the player (as the default AI is nearly blind, as you can crawl in front of it at 100m in open ground without it really noticing), and allow the AI to shoot from longer range like a human player can do, increasing the difficulty a lot.

Thos kind of mods are interesting after a while when you have played this game for years, as in such case the AI is way too easy to kill by several dozen all by yourself with the AI default values.

So if you are not very used to OFP default AI and always find it to be a challenge, it is recommended to NOT playing the original campaigns with such a mod.

[Anamon 10]

Are you playing this mission with a mod ?

No, I don't have any modifications installed, it's a fresh GOTY install apart from the applied official v1.96 patch.

I know about the popular method of using the UAZ, and what I used to do is not so different, except that I sneaked to Figari (which is a bit farther away) and stole a civilian car. However, unless you could get to the UAZ in Provins extremely fast, this does not work anymore, as after a few minutes the HIND approaches Figari and keeps hovering over it. There's no way to pass it in a car without the chopper destroying it instantly. This used to be different in older versions.

It's possible that this particular difference is also just due to a random AI variation or scripting bug. I played the first combat mission of the original campaign once in v1.00, once in v1.96, and briefly in the unpatched GOTY (v1.75 I believe), and the events and timings in the beginning were pretty different in each of the versions, so something similar might be happening to the HIND in After Montignac. Does anyone else remember it just hovering over Figari?

[sanctuary 19]

The AI (BIS values) equipped with M16/AK74/AK47 can't open fire at you if you are at more than 250 meters from them, to shoot you they will need to move to your direction to get the range under 250 meters.

But machinegunners can open fire at you to a maximum distance of 450 meters.

So if you see a squad of AI far from you that has not spotted you yet, make sure they are at more than 250 meters from you if you need to kill them. Your priority is to take out the machinegunners first.

Without the machinegunners, you should be able to kill them one by one relatively safely before they are able to approach at 250 meters from you.

If you want to avoid being spotted, always crawl, if you are standing, even walking slowly, you will be spotted or heard.

If an enemy squad is moving near you, stay prone near/inside some bush and do not move at all, high chances they will not see you as long as you don't move.

If you need to run/sprint, make sure there is no AI around, running/sprinting makes you extremely easy to see/hear for an AI.

Once an AI squad has spotted you, do not wait for them, but retreat out of their view and avoid being seen again by them.

The AI squad will continue for a few minute to know where you are (so if they spot you again you must know that they will be already aiming at you, increasing your chances of dying in seconds), but they will progressively "forget" where they see you and return to their patrols.

Now when you fire on an AI, its squad will know relatively the direction of the shot, if you fire again, they will very likely know very well where you are, so do not shoot AI soldiers if you think you will not be able to kill the whole squad.

Because all the other squad members, even those that does not have a line of sight to you will know where you are for a few minutes, and will begin to aim at you.

And as soon as you move and they obtain a line of sight to them, they shoot.

Sometime it is better to stay inside of a forest, prone without moving , and be patient, waiting for a patrol to leave, instead of engaging them.

Because you never know if they will not call for backup as soon as you open fire, leading some BMP and other enemy squads to your position.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Sanctuary

[riffleman 20]

die hard mission of ofp.many stop playing ofp due to failure in this mission

[Anamon 10]

Sanctuary, thanks for all the great AI tips! Apparently the BMP gunner can also spot me across about 450m. It's possible that he spotted me when I was standing once, but he only opened fire after I had been crawling for a while so I thought he spotted me while I was prone.

die hard mission of ofp.many stop playing ofp due to failure in this mission

I could imagine! It's a bit like the racing mission in "Mafia" then. But on the other hand this is what I think is great about OFP, it is a real challenge. That's rare today, most new games are watered down and lead the player through the game on rails, just to appeal to a wider audience... it's a bit sad really. I'm planning on getting ArmA and ArmA 2 after I have played through all OFP campaigns, and I hope they are still this kind of realistic, challenging simulation!

[LibertyBull 2]

This is unrelated, but when you do get Arma, if a challenge is what your looking for, download the A.C.E. mod and give my campaign a try. My campaign is still in development ATM but a demo is available. Its called "Back to Sahrani" and its pretty challenging if I say so myself.

[sanctuary 19]

A BMP gunner with its machinegun can open fire at a maximum of 450m

But with the main gun (with sabot and heat), it can open fire at a maximum of 4000m !

Fortunately, the BMP crew does not have superhuman abilities, and unless you are inside of a vehicle with engine on (vehicles radar can detect vehicles with engine on from very very far), the BMP should not see from too far.

In OFP some units can be given "GUARD" waypoints.

Those waypoints act as a communication center, if a squad from the same side of the units that have a GUARD waypoint spot an enemy, the spotted units location will be transmitted to the units with the GUARD waypoints.

So if a far away BMP has a GUARD waypoint and that you are spotted by some soldiers, the BMP will know where you are and wil come to you (the same as other AI, if you manage to move away and not be seen again for a while, they will slowly forget where you were and the BMP should return to its location).

Now by scripting it is possible to have units/vehicles not in the same squads sharing their informations on their spotted enemy locations, but i doubt such script is used in this specific mission.

A GUARD waypoint is possibly used though, so that's why it is a good idea to avoid being seen at all in After Montignac, or even avoid engaging a squad of enemy if you are not sure you can kill them all before another enemy squad/vehicle can come to their rescue.

Additionally, an important hint valid for both case.

When you are spotted by a superior amount of AI and so must sprint away if you value your avatar life, never sprint in a straight line, zig zag a lot.

As in OFP bullets are realistically traveling , they do not immediately hit where an AI or a player is aiming, they need a bit of time (overall in OFP their initial speed when appearing out of the gun barrel is 900 meters by seconds, and they are supposed to slow down with air friction, though i am unsure the OFP engine really slow them down despite there are a sideairfriction= command in the config).

If you sprint in a straight line, the player/AI can and will aim a a bit ahead of you to compensate with the bullet flight time and so will hit you sooner of later, depending on how training they have with OFP, or skill level of the AI.

Now sprinting in zig zag and in a non regular way makes the "aim ahead" point not staying the same, so you make the AI or player aiming at you life more difficult, alowing you the hope to survive a bit longer.

But try to use the terrain small hills and bumps as soon as possible as obstacle between you and the AI, bushes offering no resistance to bullets the terrain is your best ally to escape certain death when alone facing some AI squads.

[DrGonzo 10]

Am I the only one who notices that if you keep retrying in a level, or if you inflict enough damage to the enemy, then the enemy seem to become very aware and very accurate?

This happened to me particular while playing 'After Montignac' because it's the kind of level that usually requires several tries, especially if played on the harder difficulty settings. It appears that the enemies will eventually adapt to every strategy you try to use against them.

Similarly, I often find that if you destroy the BMPs or the T-72 in this level then the patrols will be more likely to spot you, shoot at you with greater accuracy and the Hind will circle over you and shoot at you.

Then again, I may just be being paranoid.

[sanctuary 19]

I never experimented about it, but i know from mission making and scripting that sometime variables are not always reset to what they should be (and the last value is always in the memory), when you preview go back in the editor and preview again.

So it is possible that the variable responsible of the AI awareness of your presence is not reset to its original when you click retry and is always at the last level it was in your last AI battle in the memory.

See if the problem occurs when you quit OFP, relaunch it, then use the "retry".

If it does not happen then it is indeed the "variable staying in memory and not re-initialised" problem

[stgn 39]

I think that its more a problem of you getting tired/fustraded. When I test my weapon addons I play original "ninja" mission and the longer I play the thougher it gets, I know the mission varies in dificulty by design but its clear that the more tired I get the thougher the mission gets.

STGN