Ranking system, why not?

[sic-disaster 311]

Staying alive longer and fighting more effective is ultimately more rewarding then any kind of digital medal can be.

In the end, all achievements i've seen so far are nothing that special, in the way that they all can be achieved by playing a lot, eventually some where in time by accident you'll get them. For example, Team Fortress 2 has a medic achievement where the guy you heal has to be attacked by 4 guys at the same time while still living.

He can't work towards that goal, it just kind of happens while playing, sometimes it's right after the patch adding the achievements, sometimes it takes you forever.

In TF2's case, that meant not getting unlockable weapons forever (changed that now though, now you randomly get stuff while playing).

IMO it's not useful, does not prove anything, and is in the long run completely useless.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I don't want ranking, I agree that number of deaths should outweight number of kills on the scoreboard, and frankly I just don't see how ranking could be done. And the scoreboard shouldn't be visible until the game was ended. I'm amazed how many still have this turned on on their servers :(

This is about staying alive, not about getting kills. At least for many of us. I once was amazed to see myself at the top of the scoreboard after an hour long mission, with about 6-800 M240 rounds fired, and only 7 kills (no deaths, hardcore seagull mode). I got my iron sighted M240 and I teamed up with a friend to be me assistant (ammobearer, target assigning). I couldn't get any other weapon because the mission was designed this way. Should I get a sniper rifle just because I might have had a high rank? That would make the mission completely unbalanced.

If ranking gave certain people benefits it would destroy the game for what it is. This is not an action shooter, even though some are playing it that way.

[Kalikorz 10]

Skill based server-specific client-server agreed upon carry-over ranks

Everyone is seeing only a BF-esque bullshit ranks and medals system or a rank-less speech only tactical heirarchy based on whoever sounds the most authoritative through a microphone. We need an Aristotelean golden mean. I believe I might be able to help if you all can help me.

My friend and I, both ex-military, sat down and figured out a realistic rank structure in based on the USMC standard ranks then we thought about how to define class and scores and make it work like real life where no one ever let the medic E-4 anywhere near the E-3's diesel mechanic work and so on. We thought about how you never gave your good equipment to the clutzy guy and how someone who was low ranking but good got to do more shiza than someone who is higher ranking but sucky just by law of operational success chances. Obviously this would be impossible to accurately re-create. Then he talked about Planetside where these guys running the server would promote and demote on the fly based on what they physically saw in gameplay. Then I ashamedly mention how BF2 pissed me off but BF2142 had some fun medals the ranks were kinda annoying but the halo-land-on-a-guy-and-kill-him medal was a fun one to see pop up.

So the idea became: [skip to GAMEPLAY TRANSLATION if you don't care why]

HAVE REAL RANKS! No one promotes an idiot i don't care how many people he has killed or how long he has been there. ranks should be Kept only by the server played on but saved from iteration to iteration. the server keeps a copy and the client keeps a copy if they don't match you have a cheater etc. Were talking about a semi-persistent world where a single "mission" which I will call an "engagement" can last for a REALLY long time several days to a week. This means an AI capable of running it's own independent conflict on both sides with no players involved. Then the players would arrive in conflict with the next wave of reinforcements while AI players are rotated home on leave. Because a company goes not just one guy. One squad one mission I understand. This stands to be realistic if you think of leave as not being available until replacements are available. The idea of more lives is represented by the members of your company effectively 4 platoons about 140 guys only 8 of which can command more than one squad and 16-20 of which are squad leaders and each platoon having its best and worst guys.

Also you have what you do! the mechanic fixes stuff and gets better at fixing stuff, the engineer builds and blows and gets better at that, the snipers get better at sniping, the career offices and NCO's get better at commanding in the field and have increased intel and familiarity based on how long they have been there. as such their troops are better than green soldiers right off the boat. The idea would also be that training makes you better and qualifying (not ranking up) is the primary method of obtaining new weaponry. Your CO has the weapons he is assigned and you can bet he would rather leave that Javelin in a box than waste it on the blue falcon. Ranked access would primarily depend on the price of the weapon [you must have proven yourself responsible enough to warrant an investment] NO ONE is going to give that PFC anything more expensive than an AT-4 because if he loses it it's your CO's butt on the line [P.S. there is (supposed to be) little personal cash used to equip yourself]. Your E-5 sargeant however can touch whatever weapon/ light vehicle he is darn well qualified to touch. The army uses things like rounds fired an accuracy on a course to determine qualification which arma does quite well (see basic training). Your Warrant-Officer line means you can go from corporal to flying stuff or blowing stuff up in no time...If you qualify. Qualifying IS NOT EASY. How many of you actually managed to hit every single ring in the VTOL training??? So to fly the AH-1 or the F-35 you should have CWO2+ and full flight quals on that aircraft.

As for the engagement itself the AOC and AOXO and AOCmSgtMajor (master gunney for marines) can pretty much tell you what to do. So if your good at small unit tactics and are more of a do-it yourselfer you will stay low-rank with high access. If your a command-hog who never see's combat you will be high rank with low-access. and everything in-between. Also someone who does well in combat will get into better squads and be picked for more exclusive teams.

GAMEPLAY TRANSLATION:

Ok so I have been scouting around attempting to find how to make this kind of idea in gameplay and the closest I have gotten is an Amalgamation of stuff I have seen in other games done slightly differently so even if you don't care about this outside of the Rank vs. No Rank argument any Tips/Help would be appreciated as I am starting from scratch and 0 experience.

- Yes I am trying for the world record of longest post.{you can't cliff notes the field manual}

- Ranks are either server specific Engagement specific and always Company specific (140 deaths means new company new ranks[soldier per ranks is just not realistic that everyone resets to 0 because one sargeant dies i mean you become acting whatever for whoever is above you if you die in reality)

- Ranks should be based on effectiveness not kills. You get points for completing objectives successfully, Staying alive/points-death ratio, Qualifications Other demonstrations of effectiveness to be added later. the combination of which determines how soon you will be promoted. (also people above you dying helps artificially via (acting ranks))

- Demotion happens A-LOT one stupid mistake and you are down. Shoot a friendly (and someone reports it) and your suspended/under-review/demoted/whatever. Disobey a direct order, break the rules of engagement (and someone reports it (I am thinking of something similar to the random chance of fleeing script here but used for friendlies in LOS of the violation)).

-Having another soldier with you is free even a private has a battle buddy. How many people will join you depends on your skill/rank and what skills it's in. A PFC MOS classed Artillery will have 5 buddies doing stuff and a PFC MOS infantry will have 1-3. No more purchasing units you go with a squad like the real Army. The type of unit/AI range/level being the limiting factors.

- Our idea was that your points-death ratio would control the maximum height of the squad member recruited AI skill level (since it can be random) and the overall points would control the range. So your private with 20 points and no deaths has a maxed out 2000 percent ratio so he CAN get an AI with 1 skill if he's rediculously lucky [that top guy in the company] but his range is so big he could get a 0.2 AI blue falcon as well. Your guy who has been in for a while probably has 700 points and 400 deaths is struggling to keep his max at .7 but his range is from .7 to .5 no .2's allowed cause he's got the experience to pick em.

- Reporting! crap should have to be reported if you shot that civilian but no one else lives to tell the tale you should be good to go. once one of them hits a building with a phone your screwed. (think a flee then report script) Civies don't carry radio's. The same way a silenced kill works if no one screams/ gets to their radio. p.s. no one in their right mind gets on the radio instead of finding immediate cover in the case of an ambush. [think find cover then report on null/completed script]

- Hearts and minds dude get the civies on your side and let them tell you enemy movements get the guerillas on your side and have them help fight. Piss em off and fight them yourself. [civies could go suicide bomber if you kill their town-mates hehe]

- Skill wise rounds fired on a particular weapon past say 1000 start to improve your accuracy. Your skill on a Range will decrease your site bob at a rested state. Your skill on an obstacle course or speed reflex range could decrease the amount of bobble on your sights. The amount of distance run could decrease how long it takes your soldier to catch his breath after running long distances. [ this effectively creates a PT score for ranking purposes]

-Command points the primary method of determining how many soldiers you should be allowed to command would be based on effective use of manuevers stances flanking commands formations vs. how many of your guys and yourself get wasted/wounded/break ROE or Fail. Also time of completion that sort of thing. (this would be the primary determining factor in switching up to Officer ranks)

- Warfare style Fast-time with invasion east and west options [that actually involve a landing, beach front establishment and inland HQ building where your ready for it, HIGH resources ready to go and they have to get ready fast] Think Cold Oden warfare 5.0 plus a (possibly) tough beach assault. made ok by other features *

- NO CASH only supply points from the commander and group specific boxes. You want weapons you get what was assigned your company 3 or 4 basic boxes and a launcher box and a special weapons box AI default (possibly edited to be one big box customized to your companies request) Then locked to your company with an AI on guard. (he dies and you can have at it because at that point you'll probably need it). Also this is in a building somewhere.

- NO purchasing your Vehicles you should be classed [MOS] qualified and have requested a vehicle/slash been issued one (via some radio chatter). That being said once your spec-ops and qualified for enough things you can either take/or requisition what you want as long as they are willing and able to give it up. That being said losing a vehicle is BAD NEWS unless your on an attack order losing your vehicle is only justifiable in an ambush situation. If it's not going to make it you go in on foot. No armor moves into a town without infantry clearing the way.

Skill progressions would at their highest levels add to your effectiveness (rate of fire/reload time/nomenclature/movement speed/draw speed/request priorities, supply income slightly increased for super experienced commanders etc.) Nothing game breaking just enough to let you know it's there.

Finally if you need more troops your call in reinforcements and they take forever to arrive. Some kind of tickets system should be installed as well as a comm center takedown to cut off the main base from reinforcements. BTW buildings and key structures should be rebuildable somehow. (army core of engineers anyone). And no one builds their vehicles in an engagement they are shipped in on C-130's so having an air option or sea option open I guess is essential to being able to be reinforced.

MEDALS!!!! for crying out loud if your guy eats a town takes a bullet in the leg and drags his screaming buddy out afterwards give him a silver star. Consider it permanent points that don't go away if you get demoted. Nothing serious but everyone gets ribbons and medals in the Army. If you qual expert marksman you get a big pretty one.

In Conclusion, how much of this can be done in Arma 2 cause I have no idea. Oh yeah and HOW!!!! I will grunt and stuggle till I get this thing created but man it's a long uphill climb I want to pull off maybe the newest warfare setup and go for it but I need a bunch of pieces and I can't even script yet. Thought I have been studying my but off.

P.S. my buddy suggested that Server Admin's should be able to promote and demote /give medals if they see a squad kicking but and working together well. [the planet side idea]

[kklownboy 43]

go play evo... Your idea sounds like you should be in the modders forum.

[Kalikorz 10]

I'll be going there as soon as I figure out where to start, I don't want to go "Uhm tell me everything" and end up dismissed I need to get something done hit a wall and then ask questions. Anyway I played Evo and it was far too restrictive, for that matter Warfare is far too restrictive you need something that has drop in and play at speed. Hit the ground boots moving ya know.

[BeerHunter 0]

And so what's the point of a ranking system if no one pays any attention to it but you and a few others obsessed with this fetish? :p

In RL ranks are awarded based on the skills , knowledge and supposed leadership abilities. They have a military doctrine the enforces obedience to the higher rank otherwise severe punishments can be inflicted on those that disobey.

It takes YEARS to become a fighter pilot , LAG (light armored group) squadron leader , hell even a lowly corporal and how are you going to control the quality of those that obtain the various ranks (only took a few hours of stat padding on a BF2 server to get promoted to a Major).

Oh the ranks wouldn't mean anything you say. Only personal gratification?

Well how about servers awarding "campaign medals" instead? That way others could see that you actually played through a particular mission so there's a remote possibility that you may actually know what your doing and be willing to take advice form you then. ;)

[Kalikorz 10]

And so what's the point of a ranking system if no one pays any attention to it but you and a few others obsessed with this fetish? :p

In RL ranks are awarded based on the skills , knowledge and supposed leadership abilities. They have a military doctrine the enforces obedience to the higher rank otherwise severe punishments can be inflicted on those that disobey.

It takes YEARS to become a fighter pilot , LAG (light armored group) squadron leader , hell even a lowly corporal and how are you going to control the quality of those that obtain the various ranks (only took a few hours of stat padding on a BF2 server to get promoted to a Major).

Oh the ranks wouldn't mean anything you say. Only personal gratification?

Well how about servers awarding "campaign medals" instead? That way others could see that you actually played through a particular mission so there's a remote possibility that you may actually know what your doing and be willing to take advice form you then. ;)

Amen to that, campaign medals are a great idea. Obviously the simulation is that your character has the skills necessary to actually perform all the functions he is supposed to hence the idea of qualifying you must actually be able to land/fly/use the aircraft correctly Imagine the VTOL course from the training being used as a test for the ability to fly. If you had to hit all the rings exactly to fly. That would cut down on the number of pilots in the air right away. especially if it was once for each map! and your pilots would be...good.

[Kalikorz 10]

In the military, time is not always required if your good. My good friend went from E-2 right out of training to an e-4 petty officer in less than a year and would have gone much higher had he not slept with another sailors wife. Primarily because he had more shipboard qualifications than his CO. It's the later ranks that are hard to get. If you have completed NCO training you can bet your going to be a sargeant pretty fast and the limits on entering training schools aren't that serious. I think rank should be based on skill your average player should be stopped around the e-6 rank. or -0-2 of the officer side.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Kalikorz