War and games, your opinion?

[Sith 0]

I think this topic is enough OFP-related to be posted in the General Forum, so here it goes:

I came across a very interesting article on the way games handle (or rather, dont handle) the horrors of war. You can check out my thoughts on this matter in this newspost.

You can check out the article here.

I find this a very interesting topic for a discussion, so i'd like to hear your thoughts on this matter (make sure you read the article first ).

[FallenPaladin 0]

The idea of weather and other circumstances that have a influence at your avatar is good. I can imagine a avatar shivering, because you play in a winter mission, and that makes aiming harder. Would rise the level of realism and would give us new strategic opportunities!

But what I think of as nonsense is the thought that the realism should rise that much that even games are so realistic to mirror the traumas of war. Hey, I`m playing a game or in case of Operation Flashpoint a simulation, but what I want is a kind of suspense and fun. All I want is to entertain myself! I don`t want to get a trauma, because I played a game!

[LauryThorn 0]

Well, pretty interesting article, though a bit short..

It said that

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">computer depictions of warfare end up seeming incredibly sterile and sanitized compared to the real thing.<span id='postcolor'>

Well maybe so, but I think that "Blackhawk down" was, after all, pretty sterile and beautiful picture of war.

I think that war can never be translated into a computer game, or movie. When you go to movie, you can see some action, but you don't have to sleep in tent, rain pouring, never knowing when it's your time to die.

And who would like to go to see a movie like that?

OFP is pretty realistic though, it can scare the hell out of

you. At least my pulse is over 120 when I get shot at.

[Balschoiw 0]

Hi !

I agree that no game ever can show the effects of war 100 percent. To be honest I dont want that also. Games are intentionally meant to entertain people. War´s are not for entertainment and have more than 3 dimensions.

I am an active Soldier and love to play OFP cause it gives a freedom at gameplay and a better look at tactical movements than any other game i know. Compared to reality it still misses a lot of things but I am happy it does. If you ever have been to a village where people with missing body parts are lying in houses or on the street you will understand what I want to say. The so called "horror" of such situations in my opinion has nothing to do with a game and I would neglect to play this. You don´t have to fear for your live if you are playing a game and this is good. It looks easy in several war-games:

Find enemy , kill him , finished.

But reality is never strict to a concept when it comes to a war. Children are killed, soldiers scream for their lives, the stench of burnt bodies is awful, and you really get stomach problems when you move into a mission. I don´t wish this experience to anyone, but this is how it is in real life. I think it is no good idea to take this into a game.

I take OFP as a good platform for well planned teamplay and this is fun. OFP is quite close to reality but it leaves all the cruel reality things out. This is good in my opinion cause it is still meant to be a game and not a reality - simulation. I think developers will cross some boundaries of good taste in the future to sell their products and make them shocking. This will provide cash for them from people who want the thrill. I am glad BIS did not cross that border and provided us an awesome game, that can be played serious and doesnt effect your dreams at night.

[WhoCares 0]

Well, some things:

1. I don't want a WW1 simulation with a full 36 hour artillery barrage on my position.

2. I have enough stress in my job. I play games for fun and leisure.

3. A bit more identification with your character and relation with your squad mates is okay, but I prefer my friends in real world. (I see sad kids in school telling their teacher that Koslowski died yesterday evening in a russian ambush)

4. Too much reality in games might cause sensitive natures to lose the sense for reality what could be dangerous for them as well as for their environment.

Just some personnel thoughts about it.

We should not try to create a new reality next too the one we already have to face each and every day.

wkr

WhoCares

[Hardliner 0]

To tell the truth I would like to see a game that has the horrors of war in it. It would show how bad it could be. Might even discourage certain people who are nuts about it. But of course computer games will never show what war is really like. Only the people who have the misfortune to have to fight in a REAL war would know what its like. If anyone does not want to see what its like... DON'T join the army... theres nothing worse than someone joining the army and then going to war and complaining about it. I am NOT repeat not attacking or having a go at anyone here. Its stupid in FP training when the soldier talks to the officer. "we must be ready for anything" "even for WAR Sir?" If anyone does not want to fight a war.. then stay out of the army   thats what armies do when the time comes.

I guess I have gone off topic? Maybe I'm just tired, did a computer test tonight and I was up late (round 5am) GREAT when theres a test that same day! I did read the article. I don't know really, I am happy with OFP for now  

[hbk 0]

Not a bad article, just ... i can't really see the point. Except a good reminder for all the ones, not heroes, just human beings who have died, die, and will die for our freedom. (sic)

No wonder how realistic you make it, there will always be something between reallife, and videogames / movies, this something is so called REALITY. So whatever you may do, this is not real ... that's the point. Nothing to do with weather artifacts or friendship between comrades, just not your life, not their life, no pain, no fatigue.

This said, i noticed that he only refers to MOH, RTCW, and C&C. Correct me if i'm wrong, but these are mere shooters, nothing to do with war-like, you play in the role of some kind of superhero. OFP is war-like, although there are some rambo missions, most of them are well made in that point of view.

He also refers to "blackhawk down", i have not see the movie but i doubt it can give such intense and *realistic* feelings (sic) like in "thin red line", "platoon", "apocalypse now", or even "the longest day".

Anyway, rest assured, we will never see the true horrors of war, neither in a videogame nor in a movie, and thats for the best, you can believe me.

PS: should i add that the meaning of videogame / movies is *entertaining*, even if using these you could teach a thing or two to the ignorant fools we are. While the meaning of war, well, errr .... i can't find any meaning in wars, even if some are necessary (sic) to preserve our freedom.

[Sith 0]

I think I need to explain my opinion a bit after reading these reactions

When I say games should put more emphasis on displaying a more grim picture of war, I dont mean working the player into some war trauma (although that would be the ultimate developer achievement ), or showing mutilated bodies of civilians, children, etc. That simply is way across the line of decency.

However, I do think most current games show the war as a big game where you're actually having FUN killing hordes of enemies. I can see people like this kind of entertainment as a distraction of what's going on the real world, but at the same time I feel like this is why games are not being taken serious by most people. The common opinion about games is that it's a somewhat violent form of children's entertainment.

What I'd like to see is games being used in the same way as movies and books more often. Not just for some mindless fun, but to actually show something to the people out there, to teach them something. In this case that war isnt just a heroic story where you either die bravely or save the world from an enemy without a face.

Movies can do it, books can do it...and we watch/read those for our "entertainment", even if they confront you with some gore and the traumas of war. Why shouldnt games be able to do the same?

Besides that, one of the main things I'd like to see changed, is the way people die in games. Take OFP for example:

When one of your team mates dies, he's nothing more than a number...a statistic. He simply "vanishes" from the world.

Now what if that character had a story behind him? What if you got to "know" him ingame and were led to believe that he had a whole life outside of the army. How would you look at this person lying bleeding on the ground when he was more than just a number?

Every morning you turn on your TV and watch the morning news. There's a newsitem on the war on Afghanistan, or anywhere else on the globe.

"In the latest offensive against Taliban forces, US forces have killed aproximately 37 enemy troops."

Following are some shots of killed Taliban soldiers (usually just showing their hands or feet).

Now THIS is what scares me...alot! Those dead bodies you see often dont do anything to people anymore. Just like in games, people are looking at these images as if they we're seeing numbers...statistics.

So this is where I feel games can learn people something. This is where people should be confronted by the fact that those bodies once were living, breathing things, that had a family, a personality...feelings.

Ok...maybe a bad example on the Taliban part (they're the badguys after all), but I hope you do get my point.

I simply feel that it'd be a good thing if a game showed the darker sides of war for once.

[Hilandor 1]

my own opinion on this is that war and games are two completely different things.   Its fantastic to get as much detail into a game to make it more enjoyable but im sure the majority of people realise that real life war is horrific etc. with casualties deaths. but a game is really just a game.

Although i will say that my mother seen the advertisment for medal of honour on the television  and when i visited her at weekend  she was telling me she thot it was " absolutely distastefull and wrong to be making games based on events that killed many many millions of people.

I tried to explain  using the beach landings on MoH as an example in that  when i played that mission  it was so intense, that at the end of it all  I maybe have even more respect and honour for the people that did this in real life, although i hold the highest respect for everyone that fought in that war anyways  i dont think anyone will ever experience the likes of d day again, but imo  people should at least see or be able to feel like they have had an insight into what it was like, all be it through a game  where obviously the fear etc isnt there.

I dont think war games turns people war minded   i think that there is a group of people out in the world and im one of them, that have a fasination with war and  military, and military history, and the games  especially ofp  teach u weapon types,  strategy, tactics etc which is a good way of venting this  war/military addiction.

Even without computer games and as a kid  i would be running around with friends pretending to be soldiers, making bases and chasing the "germans" as it was then ( as a kid i read victor comics and warlord. and going to an army day was the dogs bawwacks lol

as long as people remember that  games are just a method to pass time, complete for a sense of acheivment and have fun with other people who have similar tastes, then i dont see no problem.

[FallenPaladin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sith @ Mar. 14 2002,15:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This is where people should be confronted by the fact that those bodies once were living, breathing things, that had a family, a personality...feelings.

Ok...maybe a bad example on the Taliban part (they're the badguys after all), but I hope you do get my point.

I simply feel that it'd be a good thing if a game showed the darker sides of war for once.<span id='postcolor'>

I guess it`s sad but as soldier in war it`s probably the best to see your enemies in a combat situation as nameless and faceless beings - if it`s not allready close combat.

Imagine being behind a heavy stationary MG and a group of enemy infantry is advancing in 100 m distance. You`ll normally start firing at them without thinking of their history or what you are destroying when killing them. Because that moment you are only destroying "enemy forces". The deeper thoughts come always later.

It`s an Utopia that we could deal with other people in a way that suits their history or feelings. And that would never work in war, because if it would, there was no reason to fight.

[hbk 0]

Sith, i agree with you, i'd like to see more "clever" games, that could teach some people how bad war really is.

But i think, there is a problem, videogames are NOT movies or books, that is why it's much MUCH harder to use them for teaching anything.

When you watch a movie, you start the movie, you watch the movie, the movies end, then you have seen the whole story and what the director's trying to say. Same goes with book, you start, you read, then the epilogue. (most of the time you can't stop reading unless really tired)

In videogame, you don't start by the story, but by learning the game's basics, then you can go through the story by discovering new aspects of the gameplay, just like you were learning to read, before each book, and then discover new words through the writting. And when the games end, that's not the end, most of games have a lot a "replayability" in SP or MP, so you've lost the story anyway.

I'm not sure i explain myself very clearly (sorry for bad english) but in few words, you cannot be involved in a game like in a movie, just because YOU play, even if everything is scrpited, YOU make the story, somehow, it's because of YOU that your fellow players die, just because YOU wanted to play, you know what i mean ?

In video game YOU have the power to try and try again unless all of your squad members clears the mission alive. Some of the story is not written, this is so called *interactivity*.

That is why i doubt any game could ever really give us the feelings we have by wacthing a great movie or reading a good book.

There can hardly be morals in game.

[Hardliner 0]

Yeah thats it. A simulation of actual events might wake some people up and then they might have some respect for the peolpe who had to fight in these wars, espcially Vietnam (US troops there I mean even tho it was US aggression against communism due to US fears of a breakout of communism in Asia and further south... I guess anyway) altho that war was pretty pointless. Anyway I'll stop there before someone tells me to pipe down.

[Sith 0]

Agreed...a soldier will see them as a faceless horde at that moment...and as you said, they'll realise that those guys they shot were real people later on.

But most of us here arent soldiers...most of us (hopefully none), will ever be in a position where you shoot down human beings.

We are just people watching the news, telling us about how "our" soldiers bravely fight against those enemy troops.

So consequently we will never go through that stage where we realise the true consequences of shooting people in a war. I asked around a bit and you'd be surprised how many people never seem to be giving much thought to what "156 killed in combat" really means. As a well-known quote says; when you kill one, it's a tragedy...when you kill one million, it's a statistic.

Turning war into statistics is one way of dealing with such a horrible situation I guess. But does that mean we should keep telling ourselves it IS a statistic, to a point where we dont know better?

[hbk 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hilandor @ Mar. 14 2002,15:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I dont think war games turns people war minded   i think that there is a group of people out in the world and im one of them, that have a fasination with war and  military, and military history, and the games  especially ofp  teach u weapon types,  strategy, tactics etc which is a good way of venting this  war/military addiction.<span id='postcolor'>

Same here, i was always fascinated by all the resources and enegy mankind have developped to destroy itslef, didn't need videogames for that.

Somehow, i think that people that studies wars trough space and time are much more aware of what it is in reallife than people just gone watching "saving private ryan" (bad movie after all).

[colt 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">However, I do think most current games show the war as a big game where you're actually having FUN killing hordes of enemies.<span id='postcolor'>

I don't know if any-one here ever played Cannon Fodder on the Amiga by Sensible Software?

If I remember correctly, Jon Hare in an article when it first came out ( ages ago ) said that that they were trying to show ( in a satirical way ) how war / death was becoming something that gamers / public shrug their shoulders at.

I think they addressed it very well from the title of the game and the opening song - " War Has Never Been So Much Fun", to showing all the civilians queing up in front of a hill and being marched through to the next mission depending on how many men were killed previouusly. Every time one of them died, they were "rewarded" with a gravestone on the hill. The longer you kept them alive - they would rise through the ranks which would mean a more distinguised gravestone.

The top of the screen resembled a football score - Home 555 : Away 555. The numbers representing the number of kills.

Cannon Fodder in it's own subtle, unique way did make you realise that hey, it's just a game and just be very grateful it is because no-one wants to experience that in real life, because to everyone except family and friends you ARE just a statistic...

[Sith 0]

HBK: Then maybe more games should try to bring the player a story instead of just the letters and words

And yes....it will be difficult, since the player is able to actually change that story. But maybe the game should also show the player how small he is in that world. You can have massive interactive world, but still make the player feel like he's just a part of it all and will have to accept the way some things are. Some games already have this and I think it adds alot to the immersiveness. The fact that you can feel so hopeless will make the player try to make a difference (because they're used to that in most games), forcing him to go into the game deeper than just the words.

[hbk 0]

Sith, again i agree, but i think there are three problems that prevents this for being done.

First the processing power needed is not in our homes already.

Second you'll have to find a team that could make such videogames ... maybe BiS

Third, if you feel like you are nothing (like you are in real life as well said by colt) as a player you have two options :

 1 - you think of it as if it has been scripted for you, even if it changes every time, and that is the way it is after all, at least in SP.

 2 - you are completely immersed in the game and then you wonders why you play a game where you are nothing, and so that your actions will not influcence the way it will ends after all.

Again if a game is not fun, it is not a game, just like some kind of strange experience, and i'm not sure i want to replace my *games* with such *experiences*. Same goes for many other gamers i think.

[Sith 0]

No I think you missed my point there...

The player does have an influence on alot of the happenings in the game, just not the big picture (i.e. being stranded in some stupid war). The things you can influence are for example the life expectancy of your teammates, the success of a mission...maybe in future games even the way the NPC characters see you, whether they trust you or not.

Showing the player that he's just one tiny person in the entire world around him, is not the same as forcing him into a certain world using heavy scripting. Like I said, you can have a massive interactive world, and still give the player the feeling of being a 'nothing' in that world. This doesnt take away from the gameplay or anything...it just gives the player the opportunity to look at the world from a somewhat more realistic point of view.

I for one would simply love to play such a game...

[Gaswell 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (colt @ Mar. 13 2002,17:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't know if any-one here ever played Cannon Fodder on the Amiga by Sensible Software?<span id='postcolor'>

I played it on the PC, but I must admit I completely missed the anti-war message...

Personally I feel that games, movies, books, etc. should portray war as the ugly, wasteful business it is. OFP can do this to some extent, given proper mission design.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sith @ Mar. 13 2002,17:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

I for one would simply love to play such a game...<span id='postcolor'>

Agree, and I'd like to see more OFP missions where I'm just another soldier doing my part and trying to stay alive. No Ramboesque solo raids, no 50-plus kill statistics, no über spec ops saving the free world all by themselves.

[hbk 0]

Sorry, i missed your point ^^

Well, i'd like to see such game too, but i think not many people will.

It's already a miracle OFP sells so much, i doubt such a hardcore gaming experience will touch many gamers out there.

And, well i tend to think that all the games goes the same way. I mean ... i really miss my old beat-em-up and shoot-em-all games. I don't want all games go the same way.

Well i'm going offtopic here , i just want to say one thing :

G A M E P L A Y

I'm afraid such games would screw it up, and that would be bad for everyone.

There's so many games screwing it up already.

[arkadeyevich 0]

I can think about a few things that may make the game less pleasant. In general it should make the soldiers in the mud look more miserable.

-Add mud. Lost of mud on soldiers vehicles and equipment. If you are in the fields, it usually rains.

-Add a new animation: Soldier trying to keep warm by standing in the middle of his clothes, to keep the cold and wet fabric from touching the skin.

-Randomised height, face and BMI. (Saw this in another thread somewhere.)

-Add a new way for soldiers to hold their rifle. Kind of a "lazy ready", rifle horisontal across his stomack. Looking at the ground a few meters in front of him.

-As the article said, in every occurrence of armed conflict there have been far more injured than killed parties. This is something that should be reflected if OFP. The medic should not be able to heal at all, only to keep injuries from getting worse.  

-More "wounded" textures that are simple, ugly and not cartoonish.

[Panzer Jaeger 0]

Maybe a good way would be to put up a campaign starting from "scracth". Perhaps a platoon of men training, chatting in training center. My idea here would be to create a life for them, girlfriends, wifes, family, friends back home, etc.

To get player to know these people, as you would do IRL. Good example would be a movie Saving Private Ryan. Then if one of them would get killed, it would reflect in cutscenes, sending letters to home, recieving them (letters). Then maybe to give a face to your enemy, in form of a prisoner. In addition to hear complaints on food, weather, fatigue, exhaustion, cries from wounded and dying to their wounds. Now when soldier gets hit, he either goes to medic and continues to fight or dies instantly.

I think you can figure out what I mean.

[Guest Scooby]

Leaving aside many other issues and focusing on wounding.

If you want players to get more real feel effects should not be exaggerated or too minimal. Wounding should be done in detail, no predefined wound skins. Soldiers should wound alot often than die straight. Before dying soldier is most often lethally injured.

When wounded effects should be varying. Some should yell in panic, some should get frozen, etc. Wounded soldiers would have to be evacuated for further treatment. More detail to face (expressions, more lively).

[Hilandor 1]

indeed scooby, i really just found such a thing out last night watching " we were soldiers"

on the battlefield there was not many soldiers killed in action, but there was many many soldiers seriously injured and choppered out back to base where subsequently they died

[FallenPaladin 0]

A game with dozens of wounded, screaming soldiers would be indeed shocking. The screaming and dying in Soldier of Fortune was sometimes terrible to hear and look at, but at least it happened relatively quick...

What I`m uncomfortable about, too, is that such a realistic game would certainly be censored or set to the index here in Germany. Even if it get`s a 18+ rating. Under such circumstances Operation Flashpoint 3, with the above named features, would never get such high numbers of sold games here in Germany

I hate censorship in such cases, even for adults. It sucks when you are 22 years old and can`t buy a game because of the violence level here in Germany.