War and games, your opinion?

[IceFire 0]

That's a part of my point ArmourDave. I should have added that to my argument.

And Gaswell, when I stated that I was judging games from those games, I was admitting that I probably had little knowledge about gaming and had only those games for referrence. But even with admitting that, I still held my opinion.

[Pete 1]

Basically I think games should be seen as entertainment, escapism etc. The last thing most people need when they turn on their PC to play a game is the feeling of guilt from shooting a soldier.

aaah...of course

but, i think there will always be those kinds of games where the enemy is a non-person.

but for example deus ex, as i mentioned...

you go to arrest someone, you are working for the police, the prisoner starts to tell you something but you get interupted by your boss who wants you to kill the prisoner.

now you are already emotionally involved...obey a illegal order and kill him, or stand with your morale and kill your own boss...time is ticking, and you dont have much of it.

i shot my boss in that situation, and i noticed that i was really worried as i got to the base, thinking someone would know, but nobody knew..some suspected, and i was so deep in the story, my character felt like me.

i had the option to make a decision that i also would have taken in real life, it was not linear as good and bad.

imagine you play ofp...you and your team enter a village with its villages put into a line and shot, after a short time you catch the enemy forces who did this, or atleast you think did it...you shoot some in the coming fight, the rest surrenders.

they are a mixed crowd..some soldiers, some civilians..possibly allies to the enemy, some sort of partisans?

soldiers on yuor team are really angry and starts to execute some of them...your commander does nothing, your team starts to massacre the enemy and you did nothing..you leave the place ridled with dead bodies...

then you return back to base and there is no reaction...a few days (in game) later you hear rumours going around of what you did...someone saw it happen

this adds to the whole...you feel that you done something wrong, and now you are nervous of getting found out, perhaps you wont, perhaps you will

it makes no difference for the game as such, but it gives you so much more of a experience, i will never forget deus ex, and how nervous i was when back in base, i had done something that was not linear, something that i decided...

not just "go to grid XXXXX, kill all enemies"

[Sith 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">None of the above should be used to remember soldiers that fought in previous wars, people should do that instinctively. Films should never be used as educational material. Documentaries yes, steven spielberg action movies, no.

Basically I think games should be seen as entertainment, escapism etc. The last thing most people need when they turn on their PC to play a game is the feeling of guilt from shooting a soldier.<span id='postcolor'>

Now we're getting to a whole other side of the discussion...not whether it can be done in games, but if we want to see it ingame. This part really is rather deep stuff to think about, and relies heavily in personal opinions rather than technical issues. I have done alot of thinking on this part and still havent been able to form a solid opinion on this.

You say soldiers shouldnt be remembered through movies (or games), and I agree with you on that. But what about the other aspects of war? There's so much more you can 'teach' the public about war besides the memory of those who perished.

I think people 'like' to play games that confront them with this kinda stuff (to some extend) because they want to know "what it's like" upclose and personal...not from the distant point of view of a documentary, but through the eyes of a soldier. This is the very reason why those "steven spielberg action movies" and also the more confronting ones like Apocalypse Now, are such blockbusters.

Now dont get me wrong here...I dont want to sound like some guy trying to make money over the suffering of war...but the popularity of those movies is a good indicator of how much 'the people' like to see war in all it's horrible glory as a form of entertainment. We simply find our share of escapism in the suffering of others.

We are indeed morbid creatures...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And Gaswell, when I stated that I was judging games from those games, I was admitting that I probably had little knowledge about gaming and had only those games for referrence. But even with admitting that, I still held my opinion.<span id='postcolor'>

Then I really think you should try some of the more 'recent' games to give you a more balanced view in this discussion

I strongly recommend the aforementioned Deus-Ex, and if you're into RPGs (no, not the russian rocket thingies ) you should pick up some of the Final Fantasy games (they have a very strong emotional theme to them).

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">but for example deus ex, as i mentioned...

you go to arrest someone, you are working for the police, the prisoner starts to tell you something but you get interupted by your boss who wants you to kill the prisoner.

now you are already emotionally involved...obey a illegal order and kill him, or stand with your morale and kill your own boss...time is ticking, and you dont have much of it.<span id='postcolor'>

In that situation I wouldn't feel emotionally attached to either of them. They are both mere polygons and textures and I'd probally of killed them both

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> There's so much more you can 'teach' the public about war besides the memory of those who perished.<span id='postcolor'>

Correct but computer games are not the tools to be used to accomplish that. OFP is far away from the realitys of war and I dont think we'll ever see a game that comes anywhere near. The time and effort needed to make such a game would take 20 years + and would require the sort of system only our great grand children will likely encounter.

Films are more likely a better source for behind the scenes-marginal war education. i.e what troops did when they weren't fighting etc. No one wishes to feel the gut wrenching fear of war in the comfort of their own home and if you do you are some what strange.

Just from years of airsoft skirmishing I know that I would never want to be in a real war. The feeling of been surrounded, enclosed and attacked is enough to fill your pants many times over. If the attackers had real weapons and real intentions to kill you it would be horrific.

The problem with movies is they make you feel bad for 30 minutes then you go back to doing your daily routine. War will likely affect you for entire life.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think people 'like' to play games that confront them with this kinda stuff (to some extend) because they want to know "what it's like" upclose and personal...not from the distant point of view of a documentary, but through the eyes of a soldier.<span id='postcolor'>

Then people are dilluding themselves into thinking that war is anything like what they are viewing on a 17 inch monitor or their widescreen TV.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I strongly recommend the aforementioned Deus-Ex, and if you're into RPGs (no, not the russian rocket thingies ) you should pick up some of the Final Fantasy games (they have a very strong emotional theme to them).<span id='postcolor'>

I have FF7. It has a few nice FMV's, repetative gameplay and a couple of kids with big heads. I didn't exactly find much emotion.

Current games have too many unrealistic moments where you cant help but chuckle at the screen. OFP is a prime example of specially when you see tanks sliding down a slope into the road or the AI running in circles. These small little things just remind you are playing a game and destroy any emotional feelings you might be feeling.

[Sith 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In that situation I wouldn't feel emotionally attached to either of them. They are both mere polygons and textures and I'd probally of killed them both <span id='postcolor'>

If I'm not mistaken...the persons you're confronted with at that very moment are very familiar to you. One is the leader of the 'rebels' you've been chasing for a longt time, and the other is a colleague you have know very well throughout the game. The rebel leader says some stuff to you that really make you think about the various happenings in the game...you start to doubt the cause you've been fighting for all the time. At that point you really see them as more than mere polygons and textures, since they are portrayed as very convincing personalities that are stuck in the same world as you are. It might sound strange to ppl that havent played the game...but this scene really gets your mind racing on what will be the right decision...what will be the most moral thing to do.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then people are dilluding themselves into thinking that war is anything like what they are viewing on a 17 inch monitor or their widescreen TV.<span id='postcolor'>

I aree with you that games (and movies and books for that matter) will never be able to fully display the horrors of war. And I can only say that's a good thing.

However...my point was that games should try to show a more realistic view of the war to some extend. Like I said before...I dont know one computergame that show much of this stuff at all. And I feel that at least a few games should try and show a bit of the horrors of war, as a change from all the mindless fragging in gamesland.

So I'm not talking about recreating war traumas here, but simply a game that makes you think "damn this war sucks" instead of "Woah 73 frags, I'm 1337!!"...get my drift?

[IceFire 0]

What exactly is wrong with thinking "Whoa, look at all these frags" as opposed to, "this war sucks"?

The point of the game is to be entertaining. Wouln't that defeat the purpose?

There are many books written by veterans that have detailed accounts of their experiences. And the imagination is better than a computer monitor.

[walker 0]

The idea that any media is just entertainment is fundamentaly flawed. We tell stories to give us a chance to learn without having to experience the consequences of our actions.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What exactly is wrong with thinking "Whoa, look at all these frags" as opposed to, "this war sucks"?

The point of the game is to be entertaining. Wouln't that defeat the purpose?

There are many books written by veterans that have detailed accounts of their experiences. And the imagination is better than a computer monitor.<span id='postcolor'>

A painting on a cave wall, a play by Shakespear, a book by Tolstoy, a song by Bob Dylan, Film by Orson Wells, a game by BIS; they all do the same thing. They allow us to understand other peoples thoughts.

If a story is a classic it has the power to make us think.

One of the best scenes in OFP is the last mission where you meet your friends for a renunion. But BIS missed a hook there. There should have been a war memorial.

OFPs Sequals have the potential to be "Birth of the Nation" or a Hamlet. One day soon a Computer game will achieve the status of ART. I wonder which one it will be.

Regards walker

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Armourdave @ Mar. 25 2002,02:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Games are entertainment and should be played by well balanced people.

Simulations are usually educational.

OFP is neither, yet sits some where in between.

None of the above should be used to remember soldiers that fought in previous wars, people should do that instinctively. Films should never be used as educational material. Documentaries yes, steven spielberg action movies, no.

Basically I think games should be seen as entertainment, escapism etc. The last thing most people need when they turn on their PC to play a game is the feeling of guilt from shooting a soldier.<span id='postcolor'>

Bravo!

This is exactly my point!

As I said earlier, i feal sorry for those who gets emotionally attached to computer games in general.

Playing a simulation can be learning in the aspect of learning a new vehicle, weapon etc. It will never make you feal like you are there. No matter how real it looks, it will still be a bunch of polygons that you can turn off by swithing the power off button.

I cant cry over a person that just got shot in a computer game, it is simply to unreal to me... cause it IS unreal. It isnt happening. And thank god I dont have to keep saying that to myself in a game: "This isnt happening, this isnt happening". Cause if u have to do that, you shouldnt be playing it, you are too weak.

A game will never be able to simulate a life.

[Hardliner 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Espectro @ Mar. 26 2002,16:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I cant cry over a person that just got shot in a computer game<span id='postcolor'>

Cheer then.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

If the death animation is cool, i will

[Peekee 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (HBK @ Mar. 14 2002,17:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well i'm going offtopic here , i just want to say one thing :

G A M E P L A Y

I'm afraid such games would screw it up, and that would be bad for everyone.

There's so many games screwing it up already.<span id='postcolor'>

Could not agree more... I mean look at CS... Still the most popular game online because (amongst other reasons) it has a hint of realism but is basically a run around action game with no long term consequences, you die, you respawn, you die, you respawn...

[Aculaud 0]

i will say i was honestly a little disapointed when i found out you re-spawn in ofp (myabe theres a way to turn this off that i havent heard of?), but these things can be made up for, which i'll say they have been.

[Renagade 0]

If war wasnt hell,it would be fun.

and those movies aren`t the most accurate of things either.