Aim + SHIFT move means slower...

[Alex72 1]

Sorry if this has been proposed before but i couldnt find that.

You all know that when we move in arma and aim at the same time its rather "jumpy" and hard to hit things (standing walk). I think the normal walk can stay like this portraing that we walk rather rough and thus the aim aint tip top. I noticed how in ARMA2 we can hold shift while walk and aim though. Even prone crawling and hit shift and you crawl slower wich is awesome.

My idea is that when we move and aim plus hit shift (standing walk) where we move slower that a new animation is introduced. So that we have more control over the weapon in aim mode and can walk slowly down a street with steady aim. Isnt that a good idea? What do you think?

I would really much want to see this added to ARMA2 by BIS so it appeals to also them who dont enjoy addons, and to make the core game more solid - even for CQB where such a feature would be top in my book. If not BIS then i would be really glad if an addon maker did it. Possibly implement in ACE2 when it comes as well. It would leave us with more options wich we simmers like. :) Walk faster but suffer worse aim - walk slower and get steady aim.

Alex

[dmarkwick 261]

Have you ever tried this for real?

[EDcase 87]

Sorry but NOPE. You can't walk and aim better in real life so BIs have done a good job the way it is.

[dayglow 2]

If you have TrackIR you can do it already. I often bring my sights up, then shift them down to a low ready while looking over them. Nice even movement and all I have to do is push my sight up as I look slightly down and I got a perfect sight picture. Very natural and very much like RL.

Also this is war. If a target is worth shooting at, put 5-10 rounds down range at it quickly. You'll hit it. If you are stopping and taking time to have the perfect shot your going too slow.

[U-K Andy 10]

If you have TrackIR you can do it already. I often bring my sights up, then shift them down to a low ready while looking over them. Nice even movement and all I have to do is push my sight up as I look slightly down and I got a perfect sight picture. Very natural and very much like RL.

Also this is war. If a target is worth shooting at, put 5-10 rounds down range at it quickly. You'll hit it. If you are stopping and taking time to have the perfect shot your going too slow.

I don't think Alex means that.

I think this is about moving slower, being more STABLE when holding shift with the sights up. Not how well he can see stuff etc. He wants to be able to shoot more accurately instead of having the sights bouncing all over the place like he was walking without shift.

[madrussian 347]

@Alex72

I've spent a lot of time in the animation cfgs, so it's possible I may be able to help out with your understanding of how to potentially get this added.

First off, sounds like you are really after two seperate walk speeds, correct? The other possibility is that you just think the default walk speed is too fast. If that's the case, it's a relatively simple matter of adjusting the speed value for that animation in the config.

If you really want two seperate animation speeds however, you may have to give up something else. Note that there are a limited number of controls available for you to use.

If you take a look in CfgMovesBasic.hpp and CfgMovesMaleSdr.hpp, you'll see how the animation system is all connected. I have no idea if you'd like to try and tackle this yourself, but here a quick (inexhaustive) low down on how it works:

First off, using the command "animationState player" in the editor will do just what you'd expect... it gives you the animation state of the player. You can set a script to give you a continuous display of what anim state you're in.

You can locate these anim states inside of CfgMovesMaleSdr. The variables for each animation specify all kind of things. One of the those variables is called "actions", which refers over to CfgMovesBasic. Here's a quick sample to help visualize it:

class AmovPercMwlkSrasWrflDf : AmovPercMstpSrasWrflDnon {
variantsAI[] = {};
visibleSize = 0.800121;
file = "\ca\Anims\Characters\data\Anim\Sdr\Mov\Erc\run\ras\Rfl\AmovPercMrunSrasWrflDf";
speed = 1.34;
duty = -0.1;
soundOverride = "walk";
leaningFactorBeg = 0.75;
leaningFactorEnd = 0.75;
aimPrecision = 0.15;
soundEnabled = 1;
limitGunMovement = 0.6;
actions = "RifleStandActionsWlkF";
headBobStrength = 0.20398;
ConnectTo[] = {};
InterpolateTo[] = {"AmovPercMwlkSrasWrflDnon_transition", 0.015, "AmovPknlMwlkSrasWrflDf", 0.03, "AmovPercMwlkSrasWrflDfl", 0.025, "AmovPercMwlkSrasWrflDfr", 0.025, "AmovPercMrunSrasWrflDf", 0.025, "AmovPercMevaSrasWrflDf", 0.025, "AmovPercMrunSrasWrflDf_AmovPercMevaSrasWrflDl", 0.02, "AmovPercMrunSrasWrflDf_AmovPercMevaSrasWrflDr", 0.02, "AmovPercMrunSrasWrflDf_AmovPercMevaSrasWrflDb", 0.02, "AmovPercMwlkSrasWrflDf_AmovPercMstpSrasWrflDnon_gthStart", 0.1, "AdthPercMstpSrasWrflDf_1", 0.01, "AdthPercMstpSrasWrflDf_2", 0.01, "AdthPercMstpSrasWrflDf_4", 0.01, "AdthPercMstpSrasWrflDf_8", 0.01, "AmovPercMstpSrasWrflDnon", 0.02};
};

Now in CfgMovesBasic, you'll see class Actions listed. Inside the Actions class are all the possible "action states" the player can be in. Within each "action state", you'll see variables like this (noting the inheritance):

...
class RifleBaseStandActions : RifleBaseLowStandActions {
...
walkF = "AmovPercMwlkSrasWrflDf";
walkLF = "AmovPercMwlkSrasWrflDfl";
walkRF = "AmovPercMwlkSrasWrflDfr";
walkL = "AmovPercMwlkSrasWrflDl";
walkR = "AmovPercMwlkSrasWrflDr";
walkLB = "AmovPercMwlkSrasWrflDbl";
walkRB = "AmovPercMwlkSrasWrflDbr";
walkB = "AmovPercMwlkSrasWrflDb";
...
class RifleStandActions : RifleBaseStandActions {
...
class RifleStandActionsWlkF : RifleStandActions {
...

Those correspond directly to your controls!

So it's kind of like a vicious loop, back and forth from CfgMovesMaleSdr to CfgMovesBasic and back:

1. Based on the currect animation, CfgMovesMaleSdr sets the "action state".

2. Based on the "action state" in CfgMovesBasic and the control you are pressing on, a new animation is chosen that feeds back into CfgMovesMaleSdr. (Or potentially the same anim, if you keep holding the same key).

So perhaps you can begin to see what changes you'd need to make to get those two walking speeds.

I hope some of this is helpful to you. :)

Hmmm... Just noticed you posted this in the Suggestions subforum and not in Configs, etc. Sorry if this is too much info. :eek:

Edited July 1, 2009 by MadRussian

[wipman 1]

Hi, in the Demo you can aim much better down the sights walking slowly (pressing R-Shift)

is something that they've brought back from the OFP and i like it, you can do it already;

still a bit... "rough.." but you can certainly aim much better than walking at the normal speed

aiming down the sights. The animation is the same one but slower, i think that is good as it's

in the Demo. Let's C ya

[Alex72 1]

I think some misunderstood me. Im all for realism but i think the "jumping" when moving real slow could be a bit smoother. I have been on a range walking slow and shoot and i cant agree with that it jump like that to the point where we have no real control. Maybe when walking plus holding shift while aiming we could hold breath to go into that state where it becomes more steady aim? But i think ARMA wont recognize the last key press? Too many buttons. So the best would be to have it smoother when in that slowest walk mode. New animation that is.

We have sprint - run - walk - slow walk. And slow walk is new to ARMA2. Why not spice that walk up with some more accurate aim? Not BF2 super stillness ofcourse. I dont want that at all. But smooth-er than the normal "jump jump jump jump" aim. In real life you can control arm and leg muscles etc while walking and aiming that you cant in the game. The slowest walk introduced could have an upside. And the upside wouldnt be unrealistic in my experience. To me that would really add more to ARMA2 and be super in CQB when moving down the streets.

Remember that its a very slow walk so its not something you even want or can do on a regular basis. Its more when your real scared some enemy is close around buildings etc and you need advance.

Wipman:

Yep its slower but still that same "jumping". I just think it would add another dimension to the game with that slow walk had a bit better aim than that. Still moving, but yet smoother.

MadRussian:

Im not after to introduce more walk speeds since there IS different walk speeds in ARMA2. :) So i just wanted that slowest walk speed to have another animation on the aim. Smoother aim. I think some havent notice these different speeds you can do in ARMA2 yet hehe. Walk while aim (normal walk) and then press SHIFT while walking and youll walk even slower. Its awesome and to me deserves another animation for the aim. This would add another dimension in terms of realism to me as your walking slower and thus should get more steady-ish aim.

Ah well i guess thats just me then. Hopefully ACE2 will introduce steady aim again. And maybe they add it to that NEW slow-walk. Well see.

Alex

Edited July 1, 2009 by Alex72

[madrussian 347]

Interesting.

I suppose I have not seen the two different walking speeds, because I remapped my shift key to the "turbo" control in order to accomplish the following setup (for me):

1. Under normal circumstances, holding down shift toggles between run and sprint.

2. And then when I press the Caps-Lock key (which I remapped to one of the toggles, can't recall which), at that point holding the shift key down toggles between walk and sprint.

So maybe that's why I have not necessarily seen two seperate walking speeds. :)

In any event, based on your last post, at least part of what you are after is a steady aim while in the slower walk? If that's the case, that part should just be a quick tweak I think. If you check out Truemods or TrueGameplay mods (or maybe it was Q's Proper?) I seem to recall one of them would give a steadier aim. Should be easy for you to go have a look and take care of that aspect quickly at least. Good luck!

[Alex72 1]

1. Under normal circumstances, holding down shift toggles between run and sprint.

This is where the confusion is i guess. Its not when pressing shift during a normal walk. Its when walking PLUS aiming (you have right clicked and weapon is up at your eyes). Now you walk slower when pressing and holding shift. :) So we have the the usual run/walk with shift, but when aiming you now have 2 speeds of the walk. This is a new feature. We did not have it in ArmA1. So i think it really deserves to have another animation for the aim when walking with shift - the new slow-walk.

Alex.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Alex72

[madrussian 347]

I had not noticed that yet. Gotta check it out tonight. Good clarification though... I can picture this perfectly (sitting here at work, wishing I was at home working on my missions and my anim mod for ArmA2). :)

[dayglow 2]

I don't think Alex means that.

I think this is about moving slower, being more STABLE when holding shift with the sights up. Not how well he can see stuff etc. He wants to be able to shoot more accurately instead of having the sights bouncing all over the place like he was walking without shift.

That's why I'm saying to snap off a few more rounds at your target. If you want to have precise aim then stop, kneel and fire once. If you want to shoot and move at the same time then expect to fire a lot more rounds to hit your target.

[TAW_RiEvEr 10]

That's why I'm saying to snap off a few more rounds at your target. If you want to have precise aim then stop, kneel and fire once. If you want to shoot and move at the same time then expect to fire a lot more rounds to hit your target.

When I was trained in the forces (real guns and everything - oh my) we had to walk through a wooded valley, targets popped up and we fired one 'snapped' round at the target, then immediately dropped to a knee in cover to kill the target when it came back up.

We always HIT the target with that first round, even though the aim was to get its head down ready for the second killing shot.

Admittedly, I was a marksman, as were those I trained with, but that first shot was over in a couple of tenths of a second and we were heading to cover (with some poor corporal gripping the back of our webbing for dear life so we couldn't accidentally turn round and shoot him *coughs*)

I suppose with an automatic weapon a short burst might be applicable, but even with automatic weapons we always fired two or three round bursts - not long staccato ones which tend to push the barrel off target as you continue to fire.

I adopt a similar policy in Arma2 and it seems to work for me.

I'll have a play with the walking-aimed idea though, game mechanics are always worth exploring.

[nikita320106 0]

I I can picture this perfectly (sitting here at work, wishing I was at home working on my missions and my anim mod for ArmA2). :)

waiting for you anim mod) any details??

check pm please)

Edited July 2, 2009 by nikita320106

[dayglow 2]

When I was trained in the forces (real guns and everything - oh my) we had to walk through a wooded valley, targets popped up and we fired one 'snapped' round at the target, then immediately dropped to a knee in cover to kill the target when it came back up.

We always HIT the target with that first round, even though the aim was to get its head down ready for the second killing shot.

Admittedly, I was a marksman, as were those I trained with, but that first shot was over in a couple of tenths of a second and we were heading to cover (with some poor corporal gripping the back of our webbing for dear life so we couldn't accidentally turn round and shoot him *coughs*)

I suppose with an automatic weapon a short burst might be applicable, but even with automatic weapons we always fired two or three round bursts - not long staccato ones which tend to push the barrel off target as you continue to fire.

I adopt a similar policy in Arma2 and it seems to work for me.

I'll have a play with the walking-aimed idea though, game mechanics are always worth exploring.

I agree, I never take the weapon off of single shot in the game. When I say snap off a few rounds I mean single rounds, ArmA is pretty good in modeling the light recoil of a .223 weapon.

I guess we need to define what distances we are talking about. Most walking and firing drills I've done (handgun and shotgun) have been at targets within 20 yards. They're an instinctive combat shot that even with a handgun will hit the target.

Now most engagements I've had in ArmA aren't at that distance. It's usually across a village block or so, so around 50 yards or so. I've never had a problem hitting a pop-up enemy in a village when they run around the corner right in front of me, much like real life. I don't think the current game animation bobs too much for a real close quarters style contact, but hitting a target much farther out while walking is a problem. There as you stated a quick shot or two to freeze the target, then drop to the knee and a good aimed shot is the way to go.

[madrussian 347]

@Nikita

Answered your pm.

waiting for you anim mod) any details??

A few things I've been working on as far as anims go:

1. I added a few transitions that weren't present. First was sideways run to sprint diagonal... in vanilla the player would stop first, and now it's smooth. I'm sure I'll find more. Now what I'm talking about here are not broken transitions like in ArmA1, where everything would WARP without transitions. These are more going through unnecessary animation states which just kind of make it a little clunky.

2. I re-enabled using the shift key to transition back and forth between run and sprint, and then walk and sprint. For some reason in vanilla ArmA2, you could hold shift to go to sprint, but when you release shift, he keeps sprinting, so I fixed that. This is different than #1, and I had to do some work with the "action states" to make it happen.

3. A realistic movement speeds mod. This may be blasphemy, but imo vanilla ArmA2 movement is almost as fast as (or faster than?) Quake (in a bad way). So I'm going through and lowering the speeds of most animations, with and eye for "Does this look like a real person moving." I've got all the rifle stuff done and it works great, and I'm ready to move on to the other stuff. I've made this part modular, so that people can adjust entire sets of things quickly and easily if they desire.

Now please don't get too excited if these are things you're after. I tend to work as slow as molasses when I even get time and I never quite got my anims mod for ArmA1 released. Just as I finished it ArmA2 was released!

Having said that, things seems to be going quicker this time around, because I know what I'm doing now. Plus, because ArmA2 was released in much better shape than ArmA1, there's much less that needs fixing. But there's no getting around the fact that working with animations is a tedious process, and it does take time.

[dmarkwick 261]

Nice one MR, I'll look forward to that.

[madrussian 347]

Good deal... this gives me additional motivation to keep chipping away at it.

(btw - @Alex, Didn't mean to get your thread off-track there. Back to Aim and SHIFT move means slower...)

[nikita320106 0]

A few things I've been working on as far as anims go:

......................................................................

realy really wait for you work)