Remove the All Sensing AI

[An-225 0]

It is quite an annoying problem. The AI seem to always know where every vehicle is and if it is friendly or enemy.

I've posted the results of this test before, but the bug is still apparent in ArmA 2, so it may be worth posting again.

One test at the airstrip on Utes...

Static M2 placed directly behind a T-72. The T-72 is facing away from the M2. I get on the M2, and the T-72 turret swings around and automatically targets me.

I didn't fire a single bullet.

Second test, night time, airstrip at Utes.

A flight of Hueys start 500 meters North of the airstrip, with a given waypoint that makes them fly past the runway to the South.

I spawn on a ZU-23, hidden behind the control tower. The Hueys start spraying my position with gunfire, even though I haven't fired a single bullet.

[GoodKnight 10]

apparently we will have to wait for the modders to fix this problem.

I say if you release a game release a proper game. Either do that or don't charge full price!

[whisper 0]

BI is working on that, they need repro, btw, if you have, you can send it here :

http://dev-heaven.net/issues/show/1701

[Boris Glasgov 10]

Yes, this is really bad.

If could be the worst bug in the game because it effects playability in single- and multi-player sessions. The fact that the AI can see, target, and destroy you from 300+ meters away makes the game almost unplayable. Some of the distances that I am killed at it is almost impossible to tell the uniform type let alone instantaneously kill me.

Gotta fix this one fast!

[nomdeplume 0]

Vehicles are very easily detectable by the AI in pretty much all situations (and yes, static defenses like the M2 count as vehicles). Definitely not surprised about the helo "seeing" the Zsu.

As a counterpoint, fly around in a helo and see how long it takes your gunner to spot infantry on the ground. You can practically land on the bastards before your gunner notices.

[An-225 0]

What a beautiful sight. It was 11:00PM, and I was planning to test the new tracer system out on some Hueys and Cobras with the ZSU. Instead, as soon as I spawned, a fast moving object lit up the valley in front of me as it sped towards the ZSU at M1.5, seemingly coming from a Cobra. I must admit, they did a good job on the lighting. ;)

Hopefully the AI is fixed, it makes certain tactics that would work in a real situation impossible.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I'll post what I wrote up on te tracker:

---

I just tested for the first time, and I don't see the problem. Although I run using autodetection off (as most servers should do for coop), my AI reported a T72 in the demo. Also I run with no magic markers (again, as servers should do), but I turned it on for this test. I used this in a trigger:

tmp = [] spawn {while {true} do{"mt1" setMarkerPos getPos t1; sleep 2}}

where mt1 is a preplaced marker and t1 is an enemy T72. I had to get to about 300m distance before this so called 'cheat' kicked in, but the perceived distance was 500-550 meters away. I could hear the tank myself long before the AI could hear it.

So when players and reviewers think the AI is cheating, it is only putting markers at perceived and expected positions, and nowhere near accurate. Hence, I don't think it can be called a cheat.

When we play as an organized squad, we often use the term "audio on vehicle, direction 330 (±), unknown distance but not too far". From what I can see, this is excactly the level of situational awareness the engine gives the players by means of markers.

So why do I disable 'extended map info' for servers? Because it clutters up the map by marking too much unneeded stuff, and makes any recon play too easy. You can just sit on a hill not doing anything and everything updates itself.

What I do agree on, is that there should be an upper limit on detection distance for each class of vehicle. Air vehicles have the greatest detection as long as they are actually in the air. Otherwise they get the same as vehicles, maybe slightly higher (due to increased engine noise). Several kilometers should most definately be avoided, but I haven't seen this happen myself yet.

[An-225 0]

But the problem is, it is cheating. There is no possible way a tank crew can hear me getting on an M2 machine gun directly behind it. The tank crew had NO indication of my presence either, it spawned facing away from me and I spawned right behind it. As soon as I got on the M2, it turned its turret around.

[Beagle 684]

Getting into a stationary weapon will turn you into a lockable red dot on the IR/Radar substitute. Thats the problem, nothig else.

[JOGR 0]

Also, it's easy to forget that AI teams communicate and therefore may know your position even when out of LOS.

[An-225 0]

No, its absolutely impossible. I spawned behind the tank. The tank was facing directly away from me. I spawned only about 5 meters away, got on the M2 which was 4 meters away, and it turned its turret around.

There is no way to communicate something that you do not see. There is no excuse for this, there is no way to refute it. It is simply impossible.

[Mc Speedfreak 10]

different matter but still ALL sensing AI:

once engaged by infantry we withdraw, run into the forest, over a hill and repeatedly change direction... for about 5 minutes.... but the infantry still finds us and engages..

i wonder if anybody else noticed this?

[-s!Gm4- 10]

Well I had a similar experience with a tank in MP...

No enemy sighted me, i stood motionless behind a bush and still the tank shot me with accurat fire right through the bush. None of the ppl inside this tank should/could have seen me - and no, there was no infantry or sth around to report my position.

BUT on the other hand I also have experienced that AI does not alsways know where you are.

Recently 5 enemy inf just failed to notice me while I was lying prone not 5 metres away from them. Lightning conditions were great - was bright daylight. So this indicates that AI indeed CAN be tricked.

[An-225 0]

It seems a little inconsistent. With grass clutter, the enemy still engages me with accurate fire through the grass, while I withdraw from my last known position while making turns. Occasionally, I can lose them.

But the issue originally raised is extremely consistent. No matter what, the tank turns the turret around. No matter where I am hiding in the ZSU, the Hueys find me.

As Beagle stated, this seems to be related to either the radar or (what I think may be) peripheral vision dots.

[-s!Gm4- 10]

Yep, I think this is related to radar, too. Keep in mind that it is their "playground" you just stepped on. I dont think russian forces will have invaded Chernarus without being backed up by radar-intel. (Even if there were no setting to disable this behavoir in the editor, it'd still be realistic, dont ye think?)

On the other matter - clutter. Yes. Its no mystery that AI can ignore this clutter and the whole darn grass ;) But after all this is only a disadvantage when you attack from the same level of height as your target is. as soon as you attack from higher ground you should be able to see over the gras. Also moving a bit forward while lying prone will temporarily push the grad to the ground so that you have a quite effective viewing .. uhm .. lane? (damn translators) - well, clear LOS.

Anyway, there are some mods out to reduce the gras - and at least my settings on terrain and object detail arequite low - not only to improve visibility through the clutter but also to improve performance.

Btw, losing the enemy when once sightest works quite good for me. I learned the hard way how important it is to have a route of excape where you cannot be seen by the enemy.

[whisper 0]

An-225, like I said, could you provide your test missions in the link I gave above? It's the follow up for BI about this bug (AI spotting too easily).

for your first example, I suspect a hearing issue (as strange as it seems, the guys in tank may have heard you going in and/or moving).

AI in A2, like in A1, has superhuman hearing capability, far far above human players and very often spot "on ears" instead of by sight, making you think they see through walls. I think BI should definitely town down this by a fair bit

For your second example, I suspect radar indeed. Try the opposite, be in the chopper and check what you see on radar

[NeMeSiS 11]

for your first example, I suspect a hearing issue (as strange as it seems, the guys in tank may have heard you going in and/or moving).

AI in A2, like in A1, has superhuman hearing capability, far far above human players and very often spot "on ears" instead of by sight, making you think they see through walls. I think BI should definitely town down this by a fair bit

I agree with this. Though i want to point out one thing: Too low hearing abilities makes the AI ignore small arms fire that is far away but still hearable for the player. Currently the AI can hear it and identify if its infantry, tank or car but usually (Always? Not sure if the AI actually needs visual confirmation to identify this) not the side or class and it usually does not engage.

Basically, it should report 'Unkown Unknown' instead of 'Unkown infantry'.

But in the end the long range effects arent problematic and quite real compared to real life, however on shorter ranges it is just too sensitive.

[dayglow 2]

It seems right now that either the AI knows where you are, or they don't and there is no inbetween. I've been playing around with different difficulty settings trying to get the game where I like it and I've noticed that either they become aware of where you are and fire at you, their sucess being based on what their skill is, or they are completely ignorant of your position.

There is no real inbetween, ie they know you are in a general area, but don't have an exact location and fire into that area. I often fire at a location I suspect has the enemy in it while I move to try to keep them supressed. I'd love to see the AI know they are taking fire from say a village and as they move they fire into the village, not at any specific target, just at the area they know has the enemy. Right now it seems to be too much of a on/off switch and the only fire is aimed fire.

[whisper 0]

There is no real inbetween, ie they know you are in a general area, but don't have an exact location and fire into that area. I often fire at a location I suspect has the enemy in it while I move to try to keep them supressed. I'd love to see the AI know they are taking fire from say a village and as they move they fire into the village, not at any specific target, just at the area they know has the enemy. Right now it seems to be too much of a on/off switch and the only fire is aimed fire.

I've seen AI do this to me quite often actually. Not exactly like you describe, but definitely 1 AI is suppressing me around my last known or expected position for them, while others are flianking. They don't invest a whole village that way, though ;)

I've seen for example a LAV25 shooting through a wood wall at the opposite side of me, then proceeded to continue shooting along the whole length of the wall to suppress the whole area. Luckily I had gone prone

[JOGR 0]

No, its absolutely impossible. I spawned behind the tank. The tank was facing directly away from me. I spawned only about 5 meters away, got on the M2 which was 4 meters away, and it turned its turret around.

There is no way to communicate something that you do not see. There is no excuse for this, there is no way to refute it. It is simply impossible.

Maybe spawning makes a loud supersonic bang :D

[An-225 0]

Since I only have the demo, I can't save missions. But I have a screenshot of the only things that were on the map, and how they were set up.

Static weapons show up on radar too. I flew a similar mission to the opening post but with me as the Huey pilot, and my gunners engaged quite fast.