Air craft counter measures?

[max power 21]

The problem is that AA soldiers only get one missile. If you have flares that cause the missiles to hit 50% of the time, you need twice the number of missiles to make the mission challenging. There is very little point playing a soldier with an AA missile that way, since it's just rolling the dice.

[11aTony 0]

Well if you have a mission with very few AA supply then there should be proper amount of enemy air, if any. Its not like you are going to be recon AA soldier. Usually when aa solder you are in some kind of base, checkpoint with ammo near. Probably some machine guns too. Its not that you drop flares and you are saved either, so you have to wait for right moment when to launch that missile. Not like now, you switch to AA, and fire. It doesnt matter where or how far.

[frederf 0]

Proper flare implementation into ArmA2 would have flares severely reduce the probability or possibility of lock but do very little to actually spoof at locked and launched missile. This is true to life for any IR anti-aircraft missiles that are even remotely modern. Many US helicopters utilize a pulsed IR emitter (a.k.a. "disco ball) or ALQ-144 for jets that while being a complete "Hey look at me!" beacon, can lengthen and prevent IR lock.

This should not terribly overbalance aircraft as only well-planned and very brief aircraft attacks will be successful. Lingering attack or ones without proper planning should fail. Quick and limited air attacks can only be a good thing, stressing aircraft as battlefield supporters, not battlefield dominators.

The oft-modded behavior of flares instantly and automatically deploying to spoof incoming missiles (and in fact that warning altogether!) are blindingly stupid. A hovering UH-50 at 500m, not paying attention should not get a free ticket out of a MANPAD trap.

[avibird 1 154]

The problem is that AA soldiers only get one missile. If you have flares that cause the missiles to hit 50% of the time, you need twice the number of missiles to make the mission challenging. There is very little point playing a soldier with an AA missile that way, since it's just rolling the dice.

Question does the AI AA soldiers after using his round would they look and pick up more ammo from different areas or rounds from a dead soldier.

The answer was no in OFP1/ARMA1. This would have been a good thing to update in ARMA2 the same goes for AT soldiers.

Anyone who has the game can you tell me what the answer is

[Daniel 0]

+1 what Frederf just said, bang on the money. That method wouldn't break any game mechanics, and would also reflect the role of combat aircraft in the real world.

[wipman 1]

Hi, i think that booth fixed and rotary aircraft should have countermeasures, at least flares;

as the game (at least the ArmA) don't supports different AA weapons like radar, IR or LS

difference for the missiles. For BIS... a missile is something that just Lock On Target and flyes.

How can you call the aircraft "overpowered" when you can shoot the MI-24 pilot down with

a rifle?, or an AV-8B+ pilot..? or the SU-25SM pilot...? the aircraft are very vulnerable in the

previous games; and they should have countermeasures because they have 'em in the

real life and they don't allways safe the crew, cargo or the aircraft. Let's C ya

[frederf 0]

I think the aircraft that have counter-measures in real life should have countermeasures in the game :p My or others' opinion of what should and shouldn't be in ArmA2 hopefully is always back seat to you know... reality. It really saves one a lot of effort about making hard decisions about design. My personal "cheat sheet" natural tendency is to always ask "well how does it work in real life?" It's incredibly lazy and non-creative.

There was a mod for ArmA1 that made the AI shoot at the aircraft center and not the pilot, which solved a lot of the "sniped out of harrier at 3000'" problems. I don't know if BIS got the hint or not. The old Ka-50 had armored glass that was simply impenetrable to any caliber so that is possible on select aircraft.

The last time I tried to do a scripted flare solution (or rather, improve an existing addon, I'm a medeller) I ran up against the very harsh limitation that once a missile is given a lock target, neither hell or high water will null or reassign that target. Flare implementation is of course possible without this ability, but with it the task is made insanely easier.

I remember an F-117A Nighthawk jet was made to be "stealth" by having the IRlock attribute be dynamically available (vulnerable when the weapon bay was open, otherwise "off the radar). A similar effect when flares are deployed might be the easiest solution for lock-spoiling flares.

[galzohar 31]

I think the aircraft that have counter-measures in real life should have countermeasures in the game :p My or others' opinion of what should and shouldn't be in ArmA2 hopefully is always back seat to you know... reality. It really saves one a lot of effort about making hard decisions about design. My personal "cheat sheet" natural tendency is to always ask "well how does it work in real life?" It's incredibly lazy and non-creative.

You may like this: http://www.ghostrecon.net/html/interview-sonedecker2.htm

[frederf 0]

I believe I've read that interview before and it is quite pleasing to my sensibilities and opinions.

[T.S.C.Plage 0]

This is a very interesting topic. I also was wondering why BIS didn't integrated countermeasures (CMs) in ArmA2 or even 1. I mean there are a couple of functional examples in OFP and ArmA1 that they could have build up on.

For example I was involved on the advisory side in getting the CMs for the OFP CSLA mod working and I guess their solution where not all missiles are deflected by the flares was quite acceptable. I've no clou how they managed it but I guess it's simply done by a "random function" in the related scripts.

Generally there's the problem of how you want to have the CMs activated. Some mods used to give you an option to activate the IR-Jammer via the action-menu, drop flares manually by selecting them as weapon while others had the CMs always "turned on" automatically.

For the western aircrafts this wouldn't be a problem because the most western CMs have the option to operate autonomously and flares for example will we dispensed automatically if a thread is detected via the sensors. On the other hand for example Mi-24s have an IR-Jammer that can be activated to counter IR-guided missiles but the flares always have to be triggered manually because there are simply no sensors that can detect if something aims at the helicopter or a missile is launched. To integrate this in a realistic way it would need a "launch flares" option in the action-menu but I actually doubt that you'll find the time to open the menu and select the entry in appropriate time even if you notice the launch of a missile fast enough. Therefore I think the best solution would be if all the CMs would work in "auto mode" from the point the engine of an aircraft is started.

Anyways, I think it won't take to long until something like that is available via the community.

[An-225 0]

Regarding early warning of the launch of a MANPAD - surely this must be a very recent addition to most airplanes? My knowledge is out of date, using simulations dating back to the 90's and early new millennium (Jane's USAF, LOMAC), so I'm not familiar with today's avionics.

The KA-50 lacks an RWR, but has an LWS. When said LWS starts beeping, you better get out of there because an Abrams is pointing its cannon at you...

Avibird, ArmA 2 is about balance through realism. They don't add artificial measures to make sure both sides have the exact same equipment, and this game should never be about a scissors-paper-rock type of gameplay.

Anfiach, I didn't state that due to the absence of countermeasures those guidelines lacked substance. They just lack substance.

"Don't fly into a hot zone like you own the place" is not a guideline. It is an arbitrary rule thought up in the lack of actual substance.

I gave a very clear and concise breakdown on the positioning of MANPADs and the like. Whether flares are dispensed automatically or not (my fault for driving this OT), is simply irrelevant.

Aviation is a very exacting trade. Therefore, it requires exact guidelines, and not vague guidelines.

You can't fly very slow searching for MANPADs, that is simply inviting a missile to you. NOE is the way to go, flying as low and fast as safely possible.

In the case of a SAM, again, you use terrain masking, locate the target, pop up and fire. In the case that you cannot find adequate terrain to use as cover, you simply hang back at the maximum engagement range.

Countermeasures are required in game though, because a helicopter moving at 200km/h will not outmaneuver a missile flying at Mach 2. The same may be said for an airplane at maneuvering airspeed.

People also forget that chaff and flares do not guarantee the loss of a missile. Pilot input is still required (fly perpendicular to the missile launch, and then turn into it while popping chaff/flares), though this is somewhat redundant without a working RWR to signal the launch of an AIM-9 or an AA-11.

[Hell_Toupee 0]

For the western aircrafts this wouldn't be a problem because the most western CMs have the option to operate autonomously and flares for example will we dispensed automatically if a thread is detected via the sensors. On the other hand for example Mi-24s have an IR-Jammer that can be activated to counter IR-guided missiles but the flares always have to be triggered manually because there are simply no sensors that can detect if something aims at the helicopter or a missile is launched.

Most western helicopters do not have the sensors to detect manpad launches, the aircraft that do only have coverage across the rear. Western AC tho also have IR-Jammers like the mi-24 however these only have limited effectiveness vs newer generations of manpads.

[T.S.C.Plage 0]

Many western military helicopters are already equipped with ECMs, Laser- and Missile Warners and they're not only covering the rear. Do you for example know what these little things right and left on the nose of the UH-1Y are? These are AAR-57 EOMS (Electro Optical Missile Sensors) and they're widely used on many helicopters.

There are diffrent systems available from BAE, Sagem and EADS (just to name some manufacturers) and they are widely used on helicopters operating in the world wide crisis regions.

Edited June 15, 2009 by T.S.C.Plage

[frederf 0]

I'm not sure why BIS didn't tackle IR countermeasures. They did do a lot in ArmA2, must not have gotten around to it. It probably doesn't sell as well as a shiny new jet. The ArmA missile logic would've needed some extra work, being able to lose lock, some better tracking logic, etc. Missile logic is not just a "if the target is left steer left" simple thing.

The old scripts just knocked the missiles around randomly with setvelocity in hopes of making them miss. Problem was in vanilla the missile maneuverability was about 30x too high. It really was an elegant solution. Being able to reassign missile targets midflight would be the simplest and most powerful method, even allowing mods to make complex missile logic from that basic ability.

Proper BIS flares would require a key to run the "program" which should last for 10-20 seconds, plenty of time to do an attack run. Hardly ever is a single flare launched on jets or helos, East or West. IR-jammer active does beg the question, why not have it on all the time? You'd have to make it really broadcast your position as a balance factor.

Being able to kinematically defeat a missile would be great. It's really tough at ArmA's short ranges, high missile maneuverabilities, and lack of missile logic leading.

Oddly, some of the few aircraft that carry passive missile launch detectors are those in ArmA2. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) but A-10C and AV-8BII CAS aircraft are or are being fitted with such equipment (usually in the tail of the aircraft) due to their high exposure to MANPADs.

[Alex72 1]

I tested flying the JSF and dodged a couple of missiles with hard turns. Missiles screamed past me and missed. Seems also to shoot jets you need to shoot proper like right after it passes or it will lose "momentum" and miss. Also range ofcourse place a part. But from the little i tested it seemed better than ArmA1.

Alex

[Maddmatt 1]

Agreed. Even though we have no countermeasures, the missiles are definitely set up better and take a tiny bit of skill to use properly.

And some good flying is pretty effective.

[T.S.C.Plage 0]

Oddly, some of the few aircraft that carry passive missile launch detectors are those in ArmA2. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) but A-10C and AV-8BII CAS aircraft are or are being fitted with such equipment (usually in the tail of the aircraft) due to their high exposure to MANPADs.

It's not "some of the few". Nearly each western military aircraft used in a warzone has them.

[An-225 0]

As Plage said, the majority of military aircraft have flares.

I'm pretty sure the civilian Mi-8 is the only air vehicle in ArmA 2 that does not have flares in real life, though that could be extended to the Pchela and the MQ-9 Reaper.

[T.S.C.Plage 0]

I'm talking about laser and missile warners here which trigger the launch of flares automatically if a threat is detected.

[MBot 0]

To me as flightsim enthusiast the absence of flares doesn't bother me that much. Even in sims with realistic distances and air war dimensions like Lock On: Flaming Cliffs, it is extremely difficult to spot MANPAD launches in time and launch flares. In Arma 2 the air aspect is compressed to such a small space (small map, small viewdistance) and engagement distances are so short, I think it would be next to impossible to react to MANPAD launches anyway. And I am not convinced about the reliabilities of passive missile launch dedectors, which many of the Arma 2 planes don't have anyway (Su-25, A-10A, AV-8B+, Hinds etc.).

One issue that in my oppinion is a lot more important and has a way bigger impact on the aviation gameplay is the magic radar on top of the screen. This completely removes the element of searching for targets for radarless planes/helos, which is as elementar to pilots as it is to infantry. A small thing that would improve the realism and gameplay of the aircraft significantly, I think people should put their attention on this, rather than concentrate this massively on counter measures, which I think don't realy have a big gameplay impact on the simplified world of Arma 2.

[An-225 0]

Even though MANPAD launches are difficult to spot, you are meant to use the flares proactively, like the tutorial for a strafing run in the A-10 in Lock On. That said, usage of flares in an air war would be extremely limited due to the small dimensions of the map and limited reaction time.

I concur with your summary though. There are bigger, more important things to be dealt with such as the magic radar.

[T.S.C.Plage 0]

With all the AA threats countermeasures would be a usefull feature, provide more realism and not at least "eye candy".

You're right about the reaction time and that's why they should work autonomously at least on the US aircrafts. For the Russian aircrafts I would prefere an "always on" IR-Jammer and flares that can be dispensed for a certain time period via the menu but if that's to difficult then simply also in "auto mode".

The A-10 has such sensors and according to the sources I checked the AV-8B(II) also has an AN/AAR-57 system integrated.

[MBot 0]

The A-10 has such sensors and according to the sources I checked the AV-8B(II) also has an AN/AAR-57 system integrated.

I am certain that the A-10A (which is in Arma 2) has no MLWS and pretty certain that the A-10C and AV-8B+ don't have one neither (never seen it on photos). Perhaps you can point me to pictures of this system on operational A-10C and Harriers in case I am wrong?

Edited June 15, 2009 by MBot

[T.S.C.Plage 0]

A-10 ingame with SU-202/AAR-57 EOMS.

AN/AAR-57 usage in the US military.

http://www.ecsel.psu.edu/design_projects/fa03/brochures/AN-AAR-57.pdf (see list on page 2 *)

* Some aircrafts like the CH-46 are missing but are also equipped with the system nowadays

[My Fing ID 0]

Can functions be linked to buttons already designated? For instance flares could be added to the hold breath button. Hell if you really wanted to get into it you could use the same button to hold breath, drop flares in planes/helo, laz in armor (model fcs), turn on a PEQ2 laser at night, I mean it could be real useful if these mods were made. Got to admit, I'm disappointed the PEQs were modeled but not used.