IMMORTAL FORTRESS. a look inside Chechenia's warrior culture

[olro 0]

Documentary now online.

This was/is a war that could be similar to the world of Chernasaurus in Arma2.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2107781435288962503

Some very interesting views on modern warfare and how much psychology matters in regards to gaining victory.

"Chechen tactic, no tactic".. Altough you could argue some groups are conscious of so called swarming tactics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swarming_(Military)

Also watch part 1 and 2 of "Hell":

This has got to be the craziest uncoordinated savage war in modern times.

Then check various wikipedia links for the operational details of both 1st and 2nd chechen wars:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kizlyar...hostage_crisis

" When the fighting was over, one Russian regular army soldier unintentionally fired his armored personnel carrier's cannon; the shell hit and blew up another armored vehicle, and its fragments landed on the elite Alpha Group team, killing two FSB commandos and injuring three"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hill_776

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimry_fighting

"The fighting happened on a mountain between some 3,000 Russian troops, including 1,500 special forces on one side and a group of estimated up to eight armed rebels".....

"Despite heavy artillery and aerial bombardment all the fighters managed to escape the encirclement back to the village, leaving behind only an abandoned dugout. At least three OMON and Spetznaz servicemen died and more than 10 were wounded in a three-day battle, some of them possibly by friendly fire. According to the separatist website, more than 50 Russian troops were "eliminated".

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Edited May 13, 2009 by olro

[privatenoob 0]

Thank you, they are new to me!

[Dwarden 1125]

i saw some earlier and they excelent videos ...

it shame the outcome of hard victory was terrific defeat in next war(s) ...

they were unable to secure the 'peace' ...

sure there are still some alive fighting guerilla warfare but how many ...

also the 'acts of desperation' while attacking civilian targets (school, theater) leads to be easily 'classified' as terrorists ...

(hard to say how much of it was 'massmedia/intelligence' orchestrated)

[olro 0]

In my experience, any political discussions of the events surrounding the war quickly disintegrate into mad youtube comment like ramblings. There are alot of emotions out there in internetland.

What fascinates me though are how humans can fight and survive in such high threat environments. Can anyone see themselves survive a full scale soviet style assault on a village using grads, hinds, fuel bombs? We are often blinded by big explosions and menacing looking men and hardware.

"We let the helicopters approach as near as possible and let a volley with the grenade launchers. When we managed to hit a couple of helicopters it was very frightening and damaging for the morale of the enemy. We build trenches using our experience of how best to protect ourselves against mortar fire and helicopters. We build double rows of trenches where we could lie during mortar and rocket attacks. Even with a direct mortar hit on the trenches we had very few casualties

We dug several trenches on approximately one kilometre connecting them by gullies. We were ready for various scenarios. We reinforced the trenches where we positioned our grenade launchers and pulimety. They could hold some 25 men. We built 4 such reinforced trenches. During the initial artillery fire we took cover and joined our positions when the infantry attacked. It was classical position warfare, as in the cinema!

On that occasion the mines did not work because of our own inefficiency – the cord was not pulled properly and the mines exploded too soon. The Russians stopped 50/60 metres from our position and dug themselves in. We stormed them and managed to destroy 4 APCs and inflict casualties. It was open terrain. I could see clearly that the first to advance were the kontrakniki. But after our first attack they send the conscripts ahead. The tanks and helicopters were pushing them from the rear against our fire. The soldiers saw APCs on fire and it must have been very frightening for them. As far as I could judge, the Russians made more casualties among their own troops than among ours. It was sheer incompetence. It should not have been difficult to surround and destroy us."

"Why did the Russians not use their infantry in the new battle for Grozny? I think one has to take into account the human factor. Infantry consists of human beings; they must have a worthy reason to die for. When one does not know from where the next attack will come, when one sees one’s whole company destroyed and one’s comrades burning in their tanks as a result of the shots of a single man hidden in a building, fear comes into play. As I told you, a soldier driven by a survival instinct is of no use to his army. The soldiers lacked spirit, and the Russian strategists knew it".

Excerpts from: http://smallwarsjournal.com/documents/iangulbaevinterview.pdf

Some mind opening views and experiences from village people fighting a modern russian army.

Edited May 14, 2009 by olro

[Baff1 0]

How smart they all thought they were too.

All these soon to be dead people caught up in the false belief of victory.

Now that these very same romanticised "warriors" have turned out to be the killers of good old American boys too, I wonder if the author is still so quick to overskip their atrocities.

It was the same old shit with the IRA.

Very intresting viewing. Thanks for the links.

Here's some more from the same geezer.

http://fora.tv/2008/02/06/Abkhazia_Untold_War_Story#

Edited May 14, 2009 by Baff1

[von_paulus 0]

What fascinates me though are how humans can fight and survive in such high threat environments.

Me too. One of the past conflicts that "fascinates" me more is World War One in that aspect. I wonder how it was possible to a human endure in those entrenchment conditions and march, after a whistle, orderly towards the fire of machine gun nests placed all over the enemy trench. Or think like in Battle of the Somme how can one endure one weeklong of bombardment. What part of us do we left behind in order to pursuit fight and survive?

[olro 0]

Here's some more from the same geezer.

http://fora.tv/2008/02/06/Abkhazia_Untold_War_Story#

Thanks Baff. Bizarre to hear about the mega corrupt russian army in Abkhazia lending their tank crew and equipment to the seperatists one day and the next day to the georgians!!

Its a bizarro place of the world where normal conventions dont apply.

[olro 0]

Some more confessions from a russian perspective. Rare.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvlz5CEdkSc

[olro 0]

This village battle scenery looks like it could be straight out of Chernasaurus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhF9CiJ36pg

[Dwarden 1125]

Some more confessions from a russian perspective. Rare.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvlz5CEdkSc

thanks this one is new to me

[MehMan 0]

I'm always amazed at how shitty russian high command is and how easily they throw away human lives. They just won't take a hint that they suck shit. But besides high command there's the conscripting and bad training.

[Sennacherib 0]

useless wars, useless dead

these vids are a good example of human bullshit

[Second 0]

I'm always amazed at how shitty russian high command is and how easily they throw away human lives. They just won't take a hint that they suck shit. But besides high command there's the conscripting and bad training.

Remember this was times of chaos. No salary paid to men, no money to train men, no money to up-keep equipment. Russia still is paying it's "price" from 90's and it take lots of time to repair all that damage.

Against Georgia they did quite fine, very fine in fact.

[Baff1 0]

How did they do when they returned to Chechenya?

I noticed they had a Chechen division fighting with them in Georgia.

[MehMan 0]

Remember this was times of chaos. No salary paid to men, no money to train men, no money to up-keep equipment. Russia still is paying it's "price" from 90's and it take lots of time to repair all that damage.

Against Georgia they did quite fine, very fine in fact.

Depends who you ask.

[Dwarden 1125]

How did they do when they returned to Chechenya?

I noticed they had a Chechen division fighting with them in Georgia.

well it depends if it was Chechen division sent from russia to Chechnya

or if it were native proRussian Chechens either as conscripts or mercenaries

it's quite hard cause Georgia is christian country and it can be easy to try drag 'religion tensions' by e.g. islam vs christian to get more 'volunteers'

all in all the Caucasus is quite complicated area with complex issues :)

[Baff1 0]

Chechens. From Chechenya.

The Russian friendly forces I presume.

I expect the Christian/Islamic divide demarked the war there.

Seperatists = Islamic and Unionists = Christian is how I imagined it.

Depends who you ask.

Ask the Georgians.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Baff1

[MehMan 0]

The same Georgians that shot down from 7-12 russian aircraft without much radar? Or the Georgians that halted the Gori attack?

Considering all the preplanning, the attack didn't go as smoothly as it could. Either not so well planned or badly executed.

[Baff1 0]

That's four planes shot down, and the Russians occupied Gori. The Georgians abandoned their military gear and uniforms when they fled the place.

It was a cake walk.

The Georgian army broke and ran and recently mutinied at the very thought of prevaricating with Russia again.

It wasn't even a tank army, just some B grade Russian conscripts with old gear. As for pre-planning, not bad for a rapid reaction force. They went in. They stopped the war, they destroyed the Georgian armies capability to wage war. Minimal casualties. Minimal colaterol damage.

Order restored, in and out in under a week.

Text book stuff.

Not many wars in history have gone that smoothly.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Baff1

[MehMan 0]

Rapid reaction force my ass.

It's not a cake walk if you lose 7-12 aircraft to a nation with shitty AA defense. And after you've knocked out most of it's radar coverage.

Edited May 17, 2009 by MehMan

[ProfTournesol 956]

Chechens. From Chechenya.

The Russian friendly faction I presume.

I expect the Christian Islamic divide demarked the war there.

Seperatists = Islamic and Unionists = Christian is how I imagined it.

I think it's quite caricatural. Pro-russians aren't systematicly christian and "separatist" non christian. Pro-Russian Chechenya President Ramzan Kadyrov is Moslem...

[Baff1 0]

Rapid reaction force my ass.

It's not a cake walk if you lose 7-12 aircraft to a nation with shitty AA defense. And after you've knocked out most of it's radar coverage.

They got there pretty quick if you ask me. If there's one thing the Russians do well it's deploy fast.

The peacekeepers they had on the border at the time probably didn't fare so well until the relief arrived. They must have been overwhelmed.

It's a cakewalk if you win for very few casualties and your enemy routes on the first day.

They lost 4 planes. Georgia lost it's entire military capability, national pride and control of it's borders. I didn't see any Russian troops stripped to their underpants, en masse, running down the road home.

I think it's quite caricatural. Pro-russians aren't systematicly christian and "separatist" non christian. Pro-Russian Chechenya President Ramzan Kadyrov is Moslem...

I don't know a lot about it, but I'd never heard of a Christian seperatist so given the history of the region I put 2 and 2 together.

Certainly civil wars in other countries are often demarked by their cultural ties. Catholic vs Protestant in Ireland, Sunny vs Shi'ite vs Kurd in Iraq. Shi'ite vs Sunny vs Christian in Lebanon, Jew vs Sunny in Palestine/Israel.

The same in Yugoslavia.

Political divides often broadly coincide with cultural/religious ones in my opinon.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Baff1

[olro 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TBzzjk3z5A&feature=channel

Im not quite sure what goes on in this clip. but apparently oznaz troops enter a building occupied by some hostile element. Suppressive fire from the streets sets the building on fire, oznaz are now trapped by the fire, two manage to escape by ladder (while under fire), third is still trapped and later maybe inhales fumes and faints, rescue attempt number two again comes under fire.

[ProfTournesol 956]

I don't know a lot about it, but I'd never heard of a Christian seperatist so given the history of the region I put 2 and 2 together.

Certainly civil wars in other countries are often demarked by their cultural ties. Catholic vs Protestant in Ireland, Sunny vs Shi'ite vs Kurd in Iraq. Shi'ite vs Sunny vs Christian in Lebanon, Jew vs Sunny in Palestine/Israel.

The same in Yugoslavia.

Political divides often broadly coincide with cultural/religious ones in my opinon

Yes i do understand well that Religion is often a pretext of civil war, but in Russia / former Soviet republics things are more complex. Georgian for example are Christian. It's more a matter of people wanting to get rid of Moscow's influence.

Edited May 17, 2009 by ProfTournesol
Typos

[MehMan 0]

Even the russians are claiming 7 planes, while georgians are claiming 12 planes. You're claiming 4 planes how? Losing that many planes isn't the smallest number, considering you're going against a beggars army. Gori fell, but they still managed to stall it for a bit.

You don't deploy a division in 24 hours. 20000 troops and 150 tanks aren't that easy to move about. It's not a one two three operation.

It was still an easy win, but it could've gone a bit better.

Edited May 17, 2009 by MehMan