One Question I don't understand about Bipods...

[kocrachon 2]

So, one thing I noticed in ArmA was everyone said wanted to "deploy the bipods to increase accuracy". But it confuses me...

The bipods are already deployed... so why cant we just thing for a second...If they are already deployed, doesn't that mean the increased accuracy is already there?

[evilnate 0]

Oops you accidentally clicked arma 2 instead of arma.

It's possible that everyone was talking about the ACE mod feature where you can rest your muzzle on objects.

[kocrachon 2]

Well I am more of referring how its a change everyone wants in ArmA 2. And I dont understand why the change. Do we really need to have bipods that are movable in ArmA 2? Will it really make much difference to deploy them? Why not leave them deployed just like in ArmA 1 and just think, if they are deployed, they are already working...

[Scrub 0]

I think it's more than that. With your bipods deployed and used, you have increased accuracy, yes, but the weapon now needs to pivot about the bipod, or you need to lift the weapon to drastically change the fire arc. This is a reasonable cost to the benefit of stability, and has been what many are looking for. The weapon just will not act like a large assault rifle.

[Praelium 0]

I agree that they shouldn't be movable. In my view, that would just make the game more clunky as we'd get more options added to the menu rather than taking them out. Another example comes from the TrackIR Arma II video, I can see that "Open Cargo" has been added to the helicopter menu. This makes me a little nervous, because if I had to manually open the door every time I wanted to leave that might get tedious. I'll let BIS make the final judgments, of course, but here are a few changes that I would like to see:

Take "Use Binoculars" out. I can't tell you how many times I accidentally pressed that when trying to enter a vehicle online.

The "Get out" and "Eject" command should be added to the keyboard by default. Personally, I use J to exit a vehicle, and then Jx2 to eject. With this, there is no need for the action in the menu and it can be removed.

"Lights On/Off" is on the keyboard by default, that can also be removed.

Alright, I agree that adding everything to the keyboard might not be the best alternative, but whatever BIS chooses to do, I really hope it's a bit more efficient than the first Arma.

Sorry, I know I kind of trailed off a little bit. Continue on...

[11aTony 0]

Well, running around with deployed bipod on m107 or saw isnt that great either.

[twisted 127]

working bipod are something i have been wanting for a long time - notable deployabel bipods that bring realistic advantages and disadvantages.

you have a point in that they are deployed all the time - but that is just the problem. it is a visual device that gives all the advantages and none of the disadvantages. bipods can fold up for a reason - they keep hooking on things if you carry them extended and if they get damaged then you're looking at repairs/replacing them.

bipods take a little time (not a lot but not jump on your guts to enjoy substantially increased accuracy right away either) to deploy then set up and when you are lying down with bipod out your movement/turning is limited as it that of the weapon.

it's all about advantages/disadvanatages that should accompany each other.

[Hell_Toupee 0]

bipods are not that limiting, they just rest on the ground not anchor into it. Using deployed bipods, or things like resting weapons on objects if included arnt the sort of things that should require extra keypresses to use, should be automatic natural response.

[Second 0]

bipods are not that limiting, they just rest on the ground not anchor into it. Using deployed bipods, or things like resting weapons on objects if included arnt the sort of things that should require extra keypresses to use, should be automatic natural response.

I agree. If i go prone i damn sure would deploy bipods as it ain't assault rifle but weights three-four times that (not talking about SAW). Every kilogram i can take off from my arms is good thing when that thing weights over 10 kilograms. Having bipods deployed or not doesn't matter in speed how fastly gunner does "lift and toss" LMG into appropriate direction... Well basically bipods improves it as hand isn't soar and powerless from carrying and moving that weight if bipods aren't deployed. Then again i dunno what SAW is like to handle, it's much lighter.

In ArmA2? I dont' mind at the moment does character flip them down while going in prone or are they instantly ready... Well small animation wouldn't hurt. Then again moving in rushes for a long distance while character every time flips bipods up and down can become quite irritating. But button for it? I dunno, i thought America's Army was bit goofy in that.

Well i'm not actual LMG-gunner but i have operated and carried it quite a bit.

[kocrachon 2]

I just think its unnecessary.

Honestly, when I drop down while using the M240 in ArmA, the recoil is only going up, and the stability is definitely there. To me it seems like they saved the problem of deploying the bipod and put the benefits there in game already. I think if they went in, and just made a visual affect showing it going down, but made no accuracy adjustment, 99% of the community would think there was a huge difference, its all cosmetic to ease the human mind. If they don't see it doing anything, they dont think its doing anything...

When I was in the Army, our M249 and M240 gunners would leave the bipods down at all times when on patrol. Why? Because when you don't know when you are gonna get shot at, you want to be as close to ready as possible. You don't want to be dropping down and taking 20-30 more seconds setting up a bipod when you can just drop down and be ready to go.

[Red_Barron 0]

I think you are spot on HavocDemon.

It is funny to see features that gamers want to see to make a game more "realistic" compared to what the military wants in a simulation to make it facilitate real life better. Deploy-able bi pods are a perfect example. Gamers, as we can see here, would love to see us press a button to deploy the feature. The visuals of the weapon animating are cool to look at, and like you said it would ease the human (gamer) mind. The game would feel more realistic to gamers if we could see the bi pod deploying in the prone and get the recoil reducing effects than if we just got the effects from going prone.

But if you put that into VBS2, the customer base will complain because it is an unnecessary extra step. They would argue, "If a soldier goes prone they will by nature automatically deploy their bi pod, so why should we have to learn to press the button in game?" Deploying a bi pod is not the purpose of the simulation. There are bigger things the simulation supposed to help teach a soldier.

Now if you were talking about something like the ACE weapon rest feature, I think that is something a bit different. With that feature it allows you to get prone like recoil effects in a crouched or standing position so long as you have something to rest that weapon against. Unless there was a button-less way to do this, I would say it is a valid feature to have in Arma2.

[okdante 0]

"If a soldier goes prone they will by nature automatically deploy their bi pod,...

That would be nice feature in Arma2. No extra shift+alt+some key for deploying bipod necessary. Let the soldier automatically deploy bipod when prone or behind wall (the second one could be quite difficult to make). Together with improved accuracy (less recoil).

And the bipod should not work like in Americas Army...when you deploy it, it is fixed to the ground. The best option would be similar to the viewing (float zone vs. crosshair).

[Red_Barron 0]

That would be nice feature in Arma2. No extra shift+alt+some key for deploying bipod necessary.

Okdante, right now that feature already DOES exist when it comes to going prone... that's what I'm saying..... There is no graphical representation of it, but it's there. You can see it in the recoil compared to crouched or standing.

And the bipod should not work like in Americas Army...when you deploy it, it is fixed to the ground. The best option would be similar to the viewing (float zone vs. crosshair).

And once again, you can see in Arma that it is not like that when you are prone.....

Let the soldier automatically deploy bipod when prone or behind wall (the second one could be quite difficult to make). Together with improved accuracy (less recoil).

Like I said, doing it behind a wall is where you are most likely going to see it have to go to a key bound solution (like in ACE).

Arma only has one set of Animations for primary weapons handling (rifles, MG's, SMG's etc). But for each of the positions (standing, crouched, and prone) the recoil is simulated at the appropriate firing position for each weapon, regardless of how it looks. Having different weapon handling animations based on the type of gun would be nice, but it is unnecessary from a game play point of view.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Honestly, when I drop down while using the M240 in ArmA, the recoil is only going up, and the stability is definitely there.

Yeah its in, but its because you are lying down. The effect is there with every gun, bipod or not. ;)

[Second 0]

Yeah its in, but its because you are lying down. The effect is there with every gun, bipod or not. ;)

But compare M240's recoil on standing, kneeling and on prone. Recoil is insane (literally) in first two, while it's quite tender in last.

[twisted 127]

reduced accuracy should be a benefit of deployed bipods but right now there is no difference in accuracy while prone using an assualt rifle with bipod or one without.

Benefits always come with attendant limitations - few of which are modeled for arma.

who says that manuevrability while using bipod isn't compromised in real life?

try getting up or moving your weapon from this position fast. The whole way you hold your rifle changes when using bipods/support.

Now look at the rotate freely on your stomach mauverability that arma offers - having bipods down when prone should prevent that and instead they need to rest on the floor to get that accuracy. That's a concession towards how bipods work that wouldn't nerf them but add more tactical consideration.

even having bipods deployed all the time would be ok if there was this

ACE got it almost right. I reckon BIS with their brains and the fact that they are the AUTHORS of the engine could do a great job of it.

[Second 0]

try getting up or moving your weapon from this position fast. The whole way you hold your rifle changes when using bipods/support.

How? If i take my left hand from rifles stock and put it under MG (from where rifles traditionally are held) then i have just weight as an issue. Weight is an issue yes, but it isn't dependant of bipods. Only difference in how i hold my MG is that where my left hand is stationed, i can change my way of holding MG by moving my hand.

Sure everything gets slower with heavy items, but again that ain't dependant of bipods. MG with deployed bipods or without still weights the same.

[twisted 127]

How? If i take my left hand from rifles stock and put it under MG (from where rifles traditionally are held) then i have just weight as an issue. Weight is an issue yes, but it isn't dependant of bipods. Only difference in how i hold my MG is that where my left hand is stationed, i can change my way of holding MG by moving my hand.

Sure everything gets slower with heavy items, but again that ain't dependant of bipods. MG with deployed bipods or without still weights the same.

i think we are mis-communicating, man.

edit - sorry about the crappy image but sometimes a picture is clearer than words.

This handsome fellow can easily make small adjustments to where he is aiming etc. BUT maneuvering his body or weapon in bigger increments is not going to be as quick from this firing position.

if you were lying like this guy and wanted to fire at something on your right hand side you should have to move a lot more than just rotating on your stomach like arma does now.

whether the bipods are deployed automatically or via key press i am cool either way (hell even if they stay always out now - fine. but there are limitations when using them. I experience those limitations on the shooting range - and while not earth shattering they do affect they way i go about things.)

Edited May 12, 2009 by twisted
a pic better than words soemtimes

[Andi 10]

Hm, he would just have to hold his rifle a bit higher than without the bipod, if he wanted to turn by 90 degree for example.

But why would he want to do that anyway. The AI also gets in crouch position and turns before going prone again :p

[Second 0]

i think we are mis-communicating, man.

...

if you were lying like this guy and wanted to fire at something on your right hand side you should have to move a lot more than just rotating on your stomach like arma does now.

True we are mis-communicating. My post's grammar again was a mess. :p

In picture we have (handsome) man using "sniper" position where left hand is bellow stock of rifle. What difference with this position is to typical way of holding rifle, where man hold's his left hand under barrel? Only difference is the position of left hand. Moving left hand to typical rifle holding position takes no time. True shoulders are higher also, but that is minor thing.

Same problem when shooter has to turn comes even without bipods. One hand reserved for holding rifle while another hand helps legs in turning body (be it masterpiece of human-agility or half crunched position by which he turns his body).

But yeah, i won't continue further. My bipods experience is quite limited in the end and there might be things i just don't get from your point-of-view. So if you have something to share do it, i'm very interested. From your point of view I can think just that bipods are one more moving part in machine which should be as simple as possible to work fast, so getting good firing position fastly can become bit harder with bipods.

My problem with bipods is that i'm most familiar with them in LMG weighting over 10 kilograms (with ammo). Which can distort my point-of-view little as it's heavy&cubersome piece of **** pretty much always.

[Noraf 0]

i see one thing that is "missing" here, when on patroll with an mg, you use the bipod as a front grip wile walking, to help steady your aim. Atleast thats what we were told to do...

That way, the bipod has its uses when you're standing\walking, and is ready for imidently use if you drop down. and it's also easier to carry that heavy sob

[Second 0]

Most MGs make this possible only when firing from hip (too long distance from bipod to butt of stock), Which ArmA doesn't include. I think from current set of weapons SAW might be only exception because it's bipods seems to be quite close to shooter.

It would be (again) nice to have "keep weapon stabile, aim by impacts" shooting stance along with of current "aim along barrel or sights, let recoil throw barrel to sky" shooting stance. But again it would be just one more little feature which makes game play more complex and more unappealing (cubersome) to most, including me.

Then again two animations (keeping MG on hip while not aiming) and two sets of recoil for MG based on does character aim or not might be best way. Wouldn't require anything from player other than desission to aim (=snipe) or not to aim (=saturate area with impacts), no additional "take grasp of bipod"-button... At same time we would get rid of this quite stupid looking animation where machinegunners always keeps MG up against their shoulder and aims to horizon if not running.

[kocrachon 2]

Here is my question to EVERYONE

You say you want a deploy able bipod. But the bipod in this is already out. How can you tell the bipod ISNT doing its job in ArmA 1... The bipod is already out, so you cant compare what it would be like with out the bipod. So isn't it safe to assume that in ArmA 1 the bipod is working the way they do in real life?

Personally in ArmA 1, the difference between recoil crouched and proned is HUGE. I think the bipod is functional in game. Because the recoil goes only up slighly, and rarely moves. So I think its safe to say the Bipod serves its function in game.

[Alex72 1]

I would say it works yes. It is huge difference so it should be out and working. I vote therefor yes.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Here is my question to EVERYONE

You say you want a deploy able bipod. But the bipod in this is already out. How can you tell the bipod ISNT doing its job in ArmA 1... The bipod is already out, so you cant compare what it would be like with out the bipod. So isn't it safe to assume that in ArmA 1 the bipod is working the way they do in real life?

Personally in ArmA 1, the difference between recoil crouched and proned is HUGE. I think the bipod is functional in game. Because the recoil goes only up slighly, and rarely moves. So I think its safe to say the Bipod serves its function in game.

Because, if i remember correctly, you could change the effect that crouching/lying down has only on all weapons at the same time, not for each weapon individually. Now the M240 has a pretty big recoil in ArmA so when lying down the effect may be larger then with an M4, but relatively it is still the same.

But to be honest, last time i went trough this part of the .cpp's i was editing OFP, not ArmA so i may have remembered it wrong, but i doubt that it has changed since then.

So if i made a M240 without a bipod and gave it the same recoil values as the M240 with bipod, the change in recoil when lying down would be exactly the same.

EDIT: Im not even sure if the M240 has a bipod ingame. :D