Apocalypse now - redux

[Oligo 1]

I just bought and watched Apocalypse Now - Redux DVD on my home theatre. Man I was totally glued to the sofa for the whole three plus hours. The whole movie is a totally enthrilling trip to insanity, from the beginning scene of cross-fades and Doors playing in the background to the fractured ending of feverish mirages. As far as war movies go, they can't get much better than this.

As a contrast, I watched Saving Private Ryan right after Apocalypse Now - Redux. But I only managed to tackle the first hour, before I became sickened by the constant flag waving. So I stopped and was left in thought.

Why did I think the first movie was so cool and the second one so sucky? I made the conclusion that I personally probably appreciate movies which picture war as pointless insanity as opposed to a patriotic glory ride. In Apocalypse Now the enemy is pictured as humans whereas in Saving Private Ryan the enemy is pictured as evil nazi zombies who should all be killed.

Maybe the yanks need to lose a war in order to produce good war movies for a while?

[christophercles 0]

I dont think you can campare the two, one was a story about the horror of the war, and the other about the people in the war, not just thier feelings during it. Not to start an argument or anything, but where did you feel the flag waving was in spr? I never heard "im doing this for liberty, justice, and the american way!" or anything, so where did you feel it was?

[Oligo 1]

1. The movie starts with a U.S. flag waving filling the whole screen

2. The germans defending the beach (also elsewhere) are pictured as faceless stormtroopers (as in Star Wars). When they show the machinegun firing on the assaulting yanks, they never show the gunner, who probably was clutching the weapon in horror, firing in semi-panic on the approaching hordes of people trying to kill him.

3. The righteousness of their mission is underlined at all times by dear captain Miller, who in reality would probably have told his dear CO to fuck off.

4. Only the suffering of americans is shown. The germans always die right up, only the americans cry for their mothers when they perish in agony.

5. The movie clearly implicates that the machinegunner they capture and then let go should have been shot, because if you let any of those nazi scum alive they return to kill all your friends as the german machinegunner did in the end of the movie. Luckily Upham got cured from his erroneous thinking and wasted the german in the end.

6. The germans cannot fight. Do you think they would have taken whole europe with that kind of combat performance? Maybe they were badly trained germans.

Those are the points I could come up right now.

[Black Op 0]

The flag is there at the start to show respect to those that died.

its in the middle of a graveyard ffs

[christophercles 0]

Maybey all those things happened because the movie was about the americans, not the germans...... also the americans are supposed to be the "hero's" of the story, so they can just say "oh but in real life, the germans could have easily taken that shot, so im afraid ryan will have to die". And no, I dont think anyone said "ahahahah that nazi scumbag died!" infact they where showing that it happened, because the americans where angry at them for killing thier mates on the beach, but they wernt happy about it. they didnt say "hey, nice shot larry!". How about the scene with the captured german gunner from the radar base? your saying that they were conveying him as evil then? nobody in the audience though that it would be the good thing to do to kill him, infact the scene conveyed the opposite. BUT they did when he was going and killing the troops again, i dont see why that is a point to say that its american flag waving, its just common sense.

[ran 0]

far from the "ethic" debate :

i've seen apoclypse now redux ..............fantastic way better than the normal version , i love the end when willard become almost as insane as kurz

the scene in the camp under the rain ......... in the helo

the tiger hunt on the board of the river...........

the super show in the middle of the jungle............

the boat attack with the flares and the arrows ......

the attack of the village with the huey and the valkyrie march

the french plantation with the actors with their fucking accent ............. to many anthology moments

[Black Op 0]

most ppl think that when they capture the German they want to kill him cos hes a German, but if u watch the film closely u will see that Wade never actually carrys a weapon, and by killing him the German has broken the Geneva convention. There is a rule that unarmed medics are not allowed to be shot at

which is why they were so angry with him and wanted to kill him

[Longinius 1]

"most ppl think that when they capture the German they want to kill him cos hes a German, but if u watch the film closely u will see that Wade never actually carrys a weapon, and by killing him the German has broken the Geneva convention. There is a rule that unarmed medics are not allowed to be shot at

which is why they were so angry with him and wanted to kill him"

Bull. They would have been just as pissed of if it was Melesh or whoever that got hit. It was pure hate directed at the persons that killed a close friend. Nothing wrong with that. Its human friggin nature. I doubt they gave the Geneva convention a seconds thought when they saw Wade die.

[ran 0]

imagine :

you're in a small defence post protected by 2 sand bags , your position is surrounded by a platoon, two solutions :

1 fire at view without making any difference beetwen a medic , a machine gunner or a soldier with a chance to kill them all or at least repulse their attack

2 let them approaching without fighting and watch them trowing some grenades in your foxhole

wich one do you prefer ?

the geneva convention are broken every day all over the world , in a real combat situation , you don't bother about the conventions and treaties

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I am very happy that this discussion started: i never wanted to start it myself cause that could have made the wrong impression.

I must say I was hurt by the film! I watched it in Switzerland in English, so there were many students from abroad sitting next to me. I wasnt hurt by the american flag, in contrary, lets not forget that those soldiers realy died for humanity.

But when a film becomes so terribly 100% realistic as "Private Ryan" that you actually feel you are on the battlefield and then you see the Wehrmacht-soldiers (or Nazis as you call them all) portrayed as inhumane rats, then this hurts. Cause you know, since everything is so realistic in this film, the people that watch it will believe everything they see and keep it as "authenticity" in their minds for eternity. It didnt hurt my patriotism, but my sense of recognition for all those that I have seen on old pictures from my Grandma and that have died in that war.

I wouldnt have minded to see the Germans as louzy fighters (even though after years of battle you are no longer a green-horn), but I do not like them to be shown as silent killer-machines, Frankenstein-bavarians, 2m tall, skinny head and the eyes full of hate. Do you realy believe that? Do you realy believe that the same German that was fighting in the Normandie would have also done his job in Ausschwitz? Do you realy think that a German soldier after years of war, after having received many letters about friends and brothers that have died he would still have the power to jump around with a super-theatralic performance and cry: dont kill me, dont kill me? He wouldnt have had more power than to simply whine it!

"i am not guilty, I am not guilty!" he continues. Do you realy believe someone in war would cry that! Shooting in war is allowed and noone ever apologised for it! how ridiculous! And then after having gotten a second chance from the US soldier he returns cause he is as evil as he is cowardly. Thanks god all Germans die like broken Light-bulbs!

When this nice stereotyped german got shot in the end people were cheering! Is that the purpose of an anti-war film? That people cheer in the end? Maybe I have  a different perception there.

I just want to thank Mr. Spielberg for stereotyping all Germans once again so even upcoming generations know that in 1945 any German (even those soldiers that were 14 years old) were born with hate, the desire to kill jews, 2m tall and no sense of pride, basically equal to trash or animals.

War is terrible, not because there is blood everywhere and legs and heads flying around but simply because you see "humans" die and "generations being wiped out".

(if you are talking about the Geneva convention in relation to WWII than you havent understood the brutality of that war and its weapons. Anyway the Geneva convention was held August 1949, so years after)

A short dry but funny comment on realism of PRIVATE RYAN

[ran 0]

a cousin of my grandfather served (he was forced) in the LVF (légion des volontaires français) these guys were incorporated in werhmacht units to fight on the eastern front

[FallenPaladin 0]

Well spoken Albert!!

Because of these stereotype german soldiers shown in SPR, some german actors decided not to play in Spielberg`s movie, even when they were asked. For example Til Schweiger.

[Stag 0]

You see a US flag waving over a cemetary at the beginning, and you condemn the whole movie for being US propaganda?

Bull.

If the American's were the good guys, how do you equate that with the scene on the beach where the bunker has just been flamed. Burning figures are leaping from the slits and one GI screams "Let them burn?" or the shooting of the surrendering Germans soon after?

It was written from an American viewpoint, for sure. but one of the most memorable scenes for me was the fight in the room, when the German got the upper hand, and was driving the knife into the American's chest. If what you claim had any truth, he would have been saying something like "Die, Yankee Jew." Now to me, who granted doesn't understand German, he sounded almost apologetic, saying Something like "It's ok, I'll make it quick." Can any German speakers help me on that?

You read into it what you will; I suspect you expected to see US flag waving, so that's what stood out for you. You din't want to see the whole picture.

[Akira 0]

Yes the American flag was waving over the cemetary in Normandy (which is American soil given to us by the French).

But speaking as one who studied and got a degree in film, the flag was meant to convey much more than that. It was there for a spirit of patriotism, and sets the audience up for the American point of view that follows. Try looking at it this way. The old man in the beginning is Ryan, yet it flashes back to the attack on Omaha beach in which Ryan would not have been privy, and switches to Miller. Miller is dead. So what point of view is the movie being told from? American for sure, but what American? It must be Ryan (as we later find out its him in the cemetary), so his memories must be suspect, and based on second hand knowledge as most of the story is told with Miller.

But thats just my useless degree talking....

The movie is clearly American patriotic, and geared toward American audiences....not to justify Speilbergs artistic decisions, but if you want a story told from the German side make one.

Why I like Thin Red Line better....it mroe effectively tells the "lesson" the Saving Private Ryan tries to tell but ultimately fails....

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wardog @ Feb. 27 2002,17<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You see a US flag waving over a cemetary at the beginning, and you condemn the whole movie for being US propaganda?

Bull.

If the American's were the good guys, how do you equate that with the scene on the beach where the bunker has just been flamed. Burning figures are leaping from the slits and one GI screams "Let them burn?" or the shooting of the surrendering Germans soon after?

It was written from an American viewpoint, for sure. but one of the most memorable scenes for me was the fight in the room, when the German got the upper hand, and was driving the knife into the American's chest. If what you claim had any truth, he would have been saying something like "Die, Yankee Jew." Now to me, who granted doesn't understand German, he sounded almost apologetic, saying Something like "It's ok, I'll make it quick." Can any German speakers help me on that?

You read into it what you will; I suspect you expected to see US flag waving, so that's what stood out for you. You din't want to see the whole picture.<span id='postcolor'>

Wardog, I dont know if you refer to my comment! But if you do then please understand that I said: the flag has the right to be shown in the film, no doubt!

"let them burn!" I remember that! But I can assure you that noone was angry with that US-soldier in this sequence of the film. Simply because until then we had only seen US-soldiers die, we saw their arms and heads flying around and preachuing to god. And so instead of this statement (let them burn) creating disgust it created pure satisfaction for the spectators. "finally they get what they deserve!"

(In the knife scene the German said something like: it is over soon.... Let it happen...just let it happen...it wont hurt...it is nearly over...tss tsss.. This scene was impressive and it was definetly a plus. I saying this not because the US-soldier died but because it was a very intensive..scene (without blood everywhere and digital-sound support))

Sticky bomb"? Yeah right, I dont know why they had to put a Tiger-Tank into that film but that screwed up totaly any realiabilty. And in terms of realism I think we do not have to discuss here, that the film was total nonesense. A greater budget, Tom Hanks and Dolby Surround do not improve autenticity.

read it, I know it is long, but it is funny

This Germans must have done something wrong, maybe that´s why they lost the war. If they are running through a street, where an US heroe bumbs them off with his rifle from above, those Germans don´t take cover. Not at all: only more and more are running up. All of them never ask, why so much scrap and kindling is laying in this street and all of them must have a spasm in their neck so that they never look above. We are astonished to see, that only a German tank is looking this way at the end of the movie. To place its blast into the tower of the church it must have used an angle of fire at this distance, which is not possible for a tank cannon and its long backdraft.

German hand grenades are unperilous if you are sitting in a room, so we learn from the movie. If such German potatoe mashers are dropping from a whole in the wall delicously into the lap of an US heroe, he simply throws them back and finishes the enemy before the house to dozens. From the guideline of the former Arms Office of the German Wehrmacht we learn that the "Stielhandgranate 24", the famous potatoe masher, like other German models had an ingnition delay of 3.5 seconds. Including one second reaction time, such US heroe acrobatics are rather unbelievable. This movie maybe used a special production of them, coming from Hollywood´s factories, where the attention to details sometimes is low and where security for own people is the highest value.

The German Tiger Tank had been very well known for his dangerousness for opponents. Its copy in this movie, based on a Russian T34 vainly tries to be aware of authentic shape near to the original. Totally different from the Russian vehicle, the Tiger had conspicuous cornered edges. With such German tanks there really had happened movie- like actions in France, which hadn´t been granted to US heroes all over Europe in war reality. So this has to be made up by movies today. The US soldiers in reality had no good opinion of their own tanks. They for example ironically called their "Sherman" as "Ronson" because of the famous advertising of this lighter brand in those times "always burns". Is it possible, that such movie productions, like the one of Spielberg, are supposed to provide compensation for grieved US national pride?

But such real Tigers are too dangerous and could disgruntle US American audience. So we see in the movie the special Spielberg version of them. A lot of times they are standing still, probably honestly waiting for their US heroe. Their airlock at the top of the tower is always open to the French country smell. So, smart and whistling, US heroe finally arrives to place his blasting present at the tank´s flank instead of throwing it inside from the top. It is to secure the reality nimbus and suspension of the movie, that smart US heroe, thanks to his surprise present scatters himself in the air with light purple shreds. Due to an so far unknown German fault in construction and two meanwhile well known US heroes, it is possible to destroy the caterpillar track of a Tiger by placing two small children crackers at the wheels. This has never been heared before, but, you know, US heroes are coming from the country of the unpossible unlimiteness.

  What a luck, that the German tank crews in this movie always forget that their Tiger has a lot of fighting hatches with overlapping shooting angles. So they never get the idea to shoot from inside on the US heroes, which are dancing around outside like Indians around the stake.

A thirty years old officer from German Oberpfalz drove at the 13th of June 1944 around 7 o´clock in the morning at the invasion front along the N 175 near Villers Bockage. Together with some companions and such a Tiger Tank he attacked there all alone a whole British tank brigade. The lonely Tiger was able to destroy within a few minutes thirty-six enemy vehicles by driving on the passing lane along the row, shooting them. This is confirmed by Allied authorities. Even after stopped by hits of a British anti- tank cannon, the vehicle remained in such a shape, that the crew could escape from the wreck unharmed and could return to the own lines. If we would have known about the "sticky bomb" earlier, this tank would have never been a threat!"

  It must be a special favor of the gods and an unforgettable experience to be an US heroe. This will impressively be shown soon again by comparable movies, whose producers think, that you and all other audience are stupid enough to pay money for that. Will Steven leave his dinos in Jurassic Parc to be again with the party ? We are waiting in rapt attention !

[Black Op 0]

There are 2 major flaws in Saving Private Ryan

1. When they hit the beach they are the first wave, as you see no dead bodys on the beach, The first two waves that hit the beach were completely slaughtered, the 2nd wave didnt hit the beach till an hour after the first wave had landed

The first wave was Abel (sp?) company, after an hour 2/3 of the company had been killed, the only way to stay alive was to stay in the sea and advance with the tide, everyone who took cover in the obstacles were mowed down, In real life they didnt get off the beach till well into the afternoon.

2. The Tiger tank should not be there, The Americans never encountered any Tigers in the operational theatre where the film is set. The British were the first to encounter Tigers around Caen.

[Akira 0]

I may not have been "mad" at the "let them burn" scene, or the shooting of the surrendering Germans, but I will tell you I wasn't happy about it or jubiliant about it.

I could understand why the soldiers might have done that, I understand that in war things like that happen as repugnant as they are.

I was more "disgusted" than anything....tempered with the fact that these things happen...

[madmike 0]

Did anyone like Apocalypse now- redux? I fond it was way too long and went a bit too weird near the end. I did like the scence where they attack charlie on that beach. Funny as hell seeing that citron go flying into the water.

Talking of that scene with the "let em burn".

Striaght after the Falklands a british soldier wanted revenge for his mate that was killed so he found the argie who killed him and decided to shoot him. He quickly found himself serving in military prison.

Also I bet most of ypu didnt know that there was a british waffen ss brigade in WW2

[ran 0]

i think i've already heard of them , a bunch of pro-facist english , i'm maybe wrong

abotu apocalypse now redux , how did you find the scene in the french plantation ? don't you think that the french have a fucking wrong accxent during this scene ?

[madmike 0]

Yeah the french had unusual accents.

I found that the film totaly lost it at the end eith the weird music and lighting.

If you have the DVD version and watch the trailer they show all the action from the helicopter attack. I had only seen up to this scene and thought the rest of the film would be the same, but it wasnt

[Fenna 0]

Speaking of stupid accents, where the hell is that commander guy from ?(the one who tells u what do to on the missions)

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

God, I'm so successful, I feel bad, what should I do?"

"You must use your art to make the world a better place, Steven."

"But how? I'm just a filmmaker."

"Think, my son. At the beginning, God created the dinosaurs. Then God killed the dinosaurs, God created men, and ..."

"Men killed God. Men created the dinosaurs. I SEE THE LIGHT!!!"

"Steven, calm down, it is not what I mean. I mean you must show the world the terrible things that happened. So history will not repeat itself. And God will not decide to ..., you know, like the dinosaurs."

"But what about Jaws ..."

"I'm not talking about giant fishes Steven, I'm talking about our brothers and sisters, humankind."

"Oh, I see... But it's not too entertaining, is it?"

"You must choose wisely …"

[Oligo 1]

I noticed another ridiculous thing in saving private Ryan. Check out the Tigers in the end part of the movie. They NEVER fire their machineguns! A couple of times they discharge the main gun, but the machinegun is always silent. In a city fight like that, one would imagine they'd be blazing with the damn thing all the time.

Anyway, Albert, I for one think that saving private Ryan is complete crap. I read through the article you posted a link to. It was quite funny.

The only reason yanks enjoyed success in WWII was the fact that the russians were tying up most of the german forces. So russians won the war.

[FallenPaladin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Feb. 28 2002,12:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">God, I'm so successful, I feel bad, what should I do?"

"You must use your art to make the world a better place, Steven."

"But how? I'm just a filmmaker."

"Think, my son. At the beginning, God created the dinosaurs. Then God killed the dinosaurs, God created men, and ..."

"Men killed God. Men created the dinosaurs. I SEE THE LIGHT!!!"

"Steven, calm down, it is not what I mean. I mean you must show the world the terrible things that happened. So history will not repeat itself. And God will not decide to ..., you know, like the dinosaurs."

"But what about Jaws ..."

"I'm not talking about giant fishes Steven, I'm talking about our brothers and sisters, humankind."

"Oh, I see... But it's not too entertaining, is it?"

"You must choose wisely …"

<span id='postcolor'>

LOL

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Feb. 28 2002,13:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I noticed another ridiculous thing in saving private Ryan. Check out the Tigers in the end part of the movie. They NEVER fire their machineguns! A couple of times they discharge the main gun, but the machinegun is always silent. In a city fight like that, one would imagine they'd be blazing with the damn thing all the time.

Anyway, Albert, I for one think that saving private Ryan is complete crap. I read through the article you posted a link to. It was quite funny.

The only reason yanks enjoyed success in WWII was the fact that the russians were tying up most of the german forces. So russians won the war.<span id='postcolor'>

I am happy that someone realy looks at the posts and links here. I am always afraid when a message gets a heavier load than 3 lines to read people will jump over it, ignore it.

I just think with the huge huge budget that Hollywood has, you could realy create a fabolous realistic film, that could please anyone, especially the historians. It could still be full of good action, or whatever it takes to make a film profitable (cause thats a must I guess)