The us has never lost a war

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (madmike @ Feb. 28 2002,21:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One thing I would like to say is STARWARS, it wont work.

The patriot anti scud defence didnt work in the Gulf so I really doubt this will.

Also it doesnt have the backing from any countries and if the US went ahead and put a early warning system in britain, there would be public outcry and demos.<span id='postcolor'>

*stares blankly at the screen*

Looks like we got one of dem edumacted people in here...

2 years of state work has really numbed my brain I can't tell if he's agree with me, someone else, or making a new point....give me a few minutes...

The Patriot system and Star Wars being too very different things but I can see your point....if the Patriot didn't work how can something as infinitely complex as Star Wars work? Well I can't say otherwise I'd be a rich SOB right now...but then again there are plenty of Top Secret things we don't know about.....stealth at one time was thought to be impossible as well (or at least no viable).

As for who to protect against, not only the unaccounted for Russian nuclear devices (discounting suitcase bombs), China (considered to be our new advesary...SUPPORT TAIWAN!, N. Korea, MAYBE Iraq....though not as likely...

Anyway, but that begs the question also, who's going to be crazy enough to push the button, and under what circumstances....we've all lived with this little 'problem' for a number of years (anyone know where I can get "The Day After" on DVD?), and we are used to it so much so that it is integrated into our lives. Will this be the birth of a new cold war pitting a number of countries against the US, where the war is not ideologically based but put in far more nebulous terms, made more nebulous by guys that sneak around and blow planes up? Apparently so....

Should Japan be aloud to arm itself with something other than a "defense force"? Let them decide and don't stick them to a 55 year old constitution written by Americans fresh from fighting them.

Should we arm Taiwan? Hell yes and screw China.

Is there an easy solution to Korean unity. Hell no. I have a feeling its an issue that will be decided with blood. Korean, American, AND Chinese blood.

Will the EU rise as a global super-entity? I can see it. But as Omega said, nationalistic concerns and divisions will probably prevent that. Could any of you Europeans see not being German or English or French but European?

Point is (I guess....I forgot truthfully) that no one is claiming the world is a safe place now. We (that is Bush 1 and Congress) naively thought so, and killed the military. And it had to be re-birthed so to speak. Nuclear weapons are all over the place....some the shield will help with, some will take good ol' fashion leg work.

Generally speaking a weapon system invented and available will be a weapon system used. Also generally speaking, the one who complains about a new offense/defense system is the one that has lost tactical/strategic advantage because of that system (for example Taiwan being included as those "protected").

uh oh....coffee is wearing off and I think I am rambling....I'm outty for now...

[Wobble 1]

the patriot missles didnt worm.

MAJOR MISCONCEPTION!

they hit their targets,, the problem was it was SCUDS.. the SCUD is a very very inaccurate missle.. so even if it is hit to knock it off course.. it has no course.. its just fired blindly to land *somewhere over there*.. its not a precision weapon.. so hitting it and knocking it off course has no real effect on its effectiveness (or lack there of)..

NOTHING can intercept a SCUD shot of vaporizing the entier warhead.. if the SCUD hits the ground pretty much ANYHERE its done its job..  the patriots had and individual hit % of something like 88%. so if you fired 2 missles at a target there was virtually guarnteed it would be hit.. the problem was the missle bodies were what were hit.. they were all chewed up.. but the warhead (a simple bomb) hit the ground and blew up (duh)

none of you know anything about the MDS anyway, basing your idea that it wont work on the patriot missles is proof enough of that.

[madmike 0]

This is why I gave my opinion on STARWARS

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">THE MISSLE TREATY WITH USSR, is the us breaking it?

well the russians already broke it at least 3 times

1: set up early warning stations that were not allowed by the treaty... they tried to keep the secrete but the US has these things called "satellites"

<span id='postcolor'>

I didnt read much of your post, however I read the bigining and end but it was too long and I got bored

Also I never said that the patriot missiles did worm.

The fact is they never hit a thing in the gulf war apart from maybe rain

[Thehamster 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Feb. 27 2002,22:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Never meant to flame if I did...apologize if I did...

See Hamster post a real comment just thought was funny...(since I associate him so strongly with the Free The Spam Movement)...<span id='postcolor'>

Free the spam yeha free the spam.

I am quite capable of serious topic when I want to it just depends how drunk I'm am

[Paratrooper 0]

Wobble you seem to be the self proclaimed expert on the ABMT yet you dont seem to know anything about it or Russia.

Russia hasn't sold any secrets to the knowledge of the West.

Warning stations CERTAINLY ARE NOT in controvention of the treaty- what do you think NORAD is?!

Scuds have targenting and control systems like any other missile in use today.

[Thehamster 0]

All your missile shield will do if it does work we start a new arms race of a sort other countries will find it necessary to build more bigger bad ass missile that will get through it and you will spend even more upgrading your shield to stop them. A shield just is not practical every time they get a new missile through you will be defenceless against a nuclear strike until you got your new targeting system set up. You will be really buggard when they come up with a stealth nuclear missile you can not shoot down what you can not target.

[Paratrooper 0]

Oh, and Russia isn't exactly without satalites.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Feb. 28 2002,22:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Scuds have targenting and control systems like any other missile in use today.<span id='postcolor'>

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/theater/r-11.htm

Actually no they don't. Scuds were derived from V-2 technology and only have gyro-scopes...

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Thehamster @ Feb. 28 2002,22:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">All your missile shield will do if it does work we start a new arms race of a sort other countries will find it necessary to build more bigger bad ass missile that will get through it and you will spend even more upgrading your shield to stop them. A shield just is not practical every time they get a new missile through you will be defenceless against a nuclear strike until you got your new targeting system set up. You will be really buggard when they come up with a stealth nuclear missile you can not shoot down what you can not target.<span id='postcolor'>

What other countries?

European Union shouldn't have anything to fear, and as for "regional enemies" they already are trying to develop nuclear capability even before the shield was announced. China, North Korea and Iraq primarily is of whom I speak.

Those countries already had, and will continue to have (shield or not), arms increases. China already has a nuclear missile capable of striking California, and had one even before the shield was thought up.

The shield does not produce an arms race, the arms race is already here, and will be here for a long time. "Stealth ICBMs" and the like would have been developed (if possible....who knows...intriguing idea) anyway, if anything to combat warning times a target country has, the concept being the same as a stealth led first air-strike. Less knowledge of attack=less time to retaliate, and get defenses ready.

[madmike 0]

This is the important part:

Unsophisticated gyroscopes guided the missile only during powered flight - which lasts about 80 seconds. Once the rocket motor shut down, the entire missile with the warhead attached coasted unguided to the target area. Consequently, Scuds had notoriously poor accuracy, and the farther they flew, the more inaccurate they became.

But the ptriot couldnt hit them.

The only clip of a patriot that was believed to of hit the scud at the time was autualy a mafunction of the scud causing the rear section to fall of at the time a patriot was fired

[Thehamster 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Feb. 28 2002,21:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Thehamster @ Feb. 28 2002,22:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">All your missile shield will do if it does work we start a new arms race of a sort other countries will find it necessary to build more bigger bad ass missile that will get through it and you will spend even more upgrading your shield to stop them. A shield just is not practical every time they get a new missile through you will be defenceless against a nuclear strike until you got your new targeting system set up. You will be really buggard when they come up with a stealth nuclear missile you can not shoot down what you can not target.<span id='postcolor'>

What other countries?

European Union shouldn't have anything to fear, and as for "regional enemies" they already are trying to develop nuclear capability even before the shield was announced. China, North Korea and Iraq primarily is of whom I speak.

Those countries already had, and will continue to have (shield or not), arms increases. China already has a nuclear missile capable of striking California, and had one even before the shield was thought up.

The shield does not produce an arms race, the arms race is already here, and will be here for a long time. "Stealth ICBMs" and the like would have been developed (if possible....who knows...intriguing idea) anyway, if anything to combat warning times a target country has, the concept being the same as a stealth led first air-strike. Less knowledge of attack=less time to retaliate, and get defenses ready.<span id='postcolor'>

The Russian are working on this new missile that will probably defeat your Star wars thing what it basically is a ICBM with a cruise missile for the final stage deliver process and it will be or so they say it will be very difficult for any missile system to spot it or kill it.

Why does the US worry so much about nuclear weapons if I was your government I would be having a nervous break down over biological weapons they would cause far more damage than a nuke would there cheaper to make you don't need a missile to deliver them you just need a deodorant can or something and you can infect an entire city.

What is the point of antagonising the Chinese are they a rouge nation as you call Iraq, N.K etc. Why do you have problems with China granted they are not the most enlighten country in the world but how are they threatening you?

[Damage Inc 0]

The problem might be that China is communist.

[foxer 0]

What is the point of antagonising the Chinese are they a rouge nation as you call Iraq, N.K etc. Why do you have problems with China granted they are not the most enlighten country in the world but how are they threatening you?

Because China wants Taiwan ,and america has a treaty saying it will defend taiwan.I heard a rumor about if america stops trading with china they would attack the USA.China,can control N.korea if they really wanted too.

[madmike 0]

But what does this</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Because China wants Taiwan ,and america has a treaty saying it will defend taiwan.I heard a rumor about if america stops trading with china they would attack the USA.China,can control N.korea if they really wanted too.<span id='postcolor'>

have to do with STARWARS?

[foxer 0]

Do you know the 25% green hoouse gas that comes outta america,7% comes outta California.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Damage Inc @ Feb. 28 2002,23:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The problem might be that China is communist.<span id='postcolor'>

Might have something to do with it...left over Cold War mentality.

Also I'm an ardent supporter of a free, democratic Taiwan and don't follow their "one nation" idea (don't start with the martial law....you would be under martial law for awhile too if you had China looking at you hungerily). In fact it pisses me off they were kicked out of the UN, and everyone turned their back on them. (my dad told me of a banquet my parents were at the day Taiwan was screwed....it was to honor two Taiwanese pilots at one of the Air Force colleges. The commander in charge told all the US officers, and the banquet people there could be no Taiwanese flags around unfortunately due to the policy. Every officer there ignored that--including the commander--and wore Taiwanese flag pins at the banquet).

Also hate the way that puss-chaser Clinton cozied up to them....

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (madmike @ Feb. 28 2002,23:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But what does this</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Because China wants Taiwan ,and america has a treaty saying it will defend taiwan.I heard a rumor about if america stops trading with china they would attack the USA.China,can control N.korea if they really wanted too.<span id='postcolor'>

have to do with STARWARS?<span id='postcolor'>

That's why we have a problem with them.

[Damage Inc 0]

I don't really get why China wants Taiwan anyway. They know that if they try and take it USA will defend them.

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Damage Inc @ Feb. 28 2002,23:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't really get why China wants Taiwan anyway. They know that if they try and take it USA will defend them.<span id='postcolor'>

That's another great thing about america,We also have our stuff made in taiwan.One time someone told me that when he bought shoes he had one that said made in china and the other one that said made in taiwan. ....

[Damage Inc 0]

Maybe the other one was made in China and the other one in Taiwan ?

[nordin dk 0]

No, wait...you're confusing me.......what was the first part?

[madmike 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't really get why China wants Taiwan anyway. They know that if they try and take it USA will defend them.<span id='postcolor'>

*cough* and britain *end cough*

They always need our help along with the aussies and New Zs becuase we have the SAS and SBS along with an exelent record of not cocking stuff up

[Wobble 1]

Russia hasn't sold any secrets to the knowledge of the West.

USSR admitted to *cough* losing lots and lots of top secret documents pertaining to the contstruction and transport of Nuclear materials and weapons, it also is "missing" several dozen warheads.

Warning stations CERTAINLY ARE NOT in controvention of the treaty- what do you think NORAD is?!

what violated the treaty was that the stations were not placed inside the soviet union.. that was where they crossed the line.

Scuds have targenting and control systems like any other missile in use today.

THE IRAQI SCUDS AND TYE TYPICAL SCUD WERE NOT THE SAME THING

The Iraqis changed the configuration of their Scud (Al-Hussein) Missiles from their original Soviet designs in order to make them move faster and to have the distance needed to reach isreal... in order to do this the SCUDS re-entry guidence systems were removed to accomodate the extra fuel, makeing the SCUD inhearently inaccurate..

the Iraqi scuds needed the extra range so the guidence systems were removed to allow for weight reduction and more fuel.. so the missles were practically dumbfire... all they had was the gyro guidence during the launch phase.. nothing more..  in fact LOTS of them totally missed the entire country of isreal all together..

The fact is they never hit a thing in the gulf war apart from maybe rain

incorrect, they almost always hit the Missle, the problem was that they hit the body and not the warhead and the warhead would still land and explode..  watch videos of them there are several on the net.. you can see them hitting the SCUDS plain as day..

the problem was not in hitting them, the problem was that the warhead would still land and explode.. and since the Iraqi SUCDS were not aimed and anything hitting them and altering their course was of no real value because they were never really aimed at anything in the first place.

the major misconception is that the patriot flat out missed the incming SCUDS.. this is not true.. it hit them with great frequency.. THE PROBLEM was that it would alwasy hit the rocket body.. not the warhead.. so the warhead would just fall to earth and explode... and since it wasnt aimed at anything thats all it had to do to do its job..

als remember that MANY SCUDS broke up on reentry.. creating multiple targets..  and guess what.. those that broke up on reentry.. were just as effective as the ones that preformed properly.. why? no target.

its like me throwing a rocke up in the air and saying if it hits the ground.. you lose..  there is no way.. you could hit ti all you want but if it hits the groun ANYWHERE you lose...

as for the MDS not working.. well here is video of the latest test...  http://www.redstone.army.mil/pub_affairs/PAC-3DT-8video.asf

in case ya get confused (I did)

1) Launch of the Hera tactical ballistic missile (target);

2) Launch of the Patriot-as-a-target (second target)

3) Launch of the PAC-2 missile;

4) Launch of the first PAC-3 missile;

5) Launch of the second PAC-3 missile;

6) PAC-2 intercept of the PAAT;

7) 1st PAC-3 missile intercept of the Hera target;

8) Destruct sequence of the second PAC-3 missile. The destruct sequence was initiated after the first PAC-3 intercepted the target.

[RedRogue 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Blake @ Feb. 27 2002,08:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The war of 1812 was really a backstab move by the US against the Brits, since they were fighting against Napoleon's

vast empire with the Russians. The US saw an oppoturnity to seize Canada but the attack was repulsed, and as mentioned above, even the White House was burned by British redcoats.

In that conflict i'd sat US got what it deserved <span id='postcolor'>

I have no idea what history book you got that from.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

Holy sh*t. I make a post on this thread, come back 2 days later and its 20 PAGES! long!. Holy crap, I don't want to waste time reading it all.

Tyler