Bugz and Reasons

[ArMoGaDoN 0]

Well, this is sorta an anti flaming-troll thread. Guess it will be a target for all the trolls afterwards, so I ain't gonna bother reading any replies nor wish to be drawn into further arguments.  Nor I think should anyone else.  Just ignore 'em, perhaps they'll go back to BF2 or some other **** like that.

Hardware <==> Drivers <==> Windows API <==> ArmA

                               <==> DirectX API <==>

Microsoft have positioned their DirectX runtimes as all-knowing all-doing services for game developers.  Sometimes hardware leaps forward ahead of the drivers and API capabilities and causes the old versions of the drivers/API to have problems, sometimes the drivers themselves are buggy, and sometimes Microsoft DirectX has bugs itself.  Microsoft and the Driver manufacturers specify the interfaces and take care of the low-level details so that many many target hardware platforms can be accessed by the game developers using the same code calling the same interfaces.

Much of the serious bugs that plague people at the moment derive from bugs in DirectX and drivers from the video-card manufacturers themselves.  (NVidia 8800 instabilities for example, the ATI handle-leaks, the joystick issues with the X-box-handling libraries taht were touted by Micrsoft as generic enough to work with normal windows controllers too, simplifying things for multiple-target system development apparently or purportedly).

These bugs aren't the fault of BIS, who use the services of those API and drivers.  Just that BIS have used stuff that the suppliers of those services said would work, but themselves have had problems delivering.  

It would be in BIS's interest to publicise the real causes of some of the problems a bit more, as then much of the finger-pointing and bickering that exists in these forums might have been nipped in the bud - however I respect their decision to not get into a blame-war.  At this point though I will myself stand up and say this stuff, as it answers and counters many peoples arguments and flaming in one go.  

BIS work themselves to try and circumvent the API and driver issues, no doubt along the way doing much nagging of their own at the other companies that should have supplied the goods in the first place.  Hopefully soon the new drivers for NVidia and ATI will address the issues currently found on some top-end graphics cards, and some workarounds will be found by BIS to avoid the worst of those issues.

But instead of flaming BIS for releasing unfinished software, why not use those energies to nag and flame at NVidia and ATI who have released buggy (full-version) drivers for their EXPENSIVE top-of-the-line hardware that renders them if not unuseable, then very unstable in operation.  That would be a far more worthwhile use of the energies that you are wasting in flaming here.

Microsoft lay down standards that those other companies are supposed to adhere to in developing the drivers for the hardware - but obviously they are not keeping their part of the contract at the moment.  Go flame NVidia, go flame ATI, go have a go at Microsoft for their DirectX bugs, or even demand of them that they go police the standards that they set - and get them to have a go at the graphics cards manufacturers too.  The problems are actually showing Window's graphics and gaming capabilities in a poor light, Arma is not to blame for those bugs - but it does depends on stuff, in good faith, that has bugs.

Enough.  Go flame the people that deserve it.

(edit: p.s. The SetPos thing, I found, usually works fine if you use a script and a small delay before doing the actual setPos - this is a workaround that I use)

[maddogx 13]

And to all the people claiming BI ripped people off by releasing an unfinished game, look at the Big Rigs article over at Wikipedia.

That's what you call a rip-off.

[d3dsh33p 0]

And to all the people claiming BI ripped people off by releasing an unfinished game, look at the Big Rigs article over at Wikipedia.

That's what you call a rip-off.

haha you just compared big rigs to arma...

I had nothing to do with it either

oh and to the thread started " Just ignore 'em, perhaps they'll go back to BF2 or some other **** like that."

I'm gonna assume from this comment that you like seeing the multiplayer with hundreds of servers and about 100 players total.

idiot

[maddogx 13]

And to all the people claiming BI ripped people off by releasing an unfinished game, look at the Big Rigs article over at Wikipedia.

That's what you call a rip-off.

haha you just compared big rigs to arma...

I had nothing to do with it either

oh and to the thread started " Just ignore 'em, perhaps they'll go back to BF2 or some other **** like that."

I'm gonna assume from this comment that you like seeing the multiplayer with hundreds of servers and about 100 players total.

idiot

Calling people idiots with your warning level probably isn't the most clever thing to do.

It's funny how some people will stop at nothing to derail any thread that tries to defend BI.

[d3dsh33p 0]

im not derailing shit, the starter made their idiot comment (so i didnt even bother to read the rest of his rambling) then you compare arma to big rigs... whats derailing about that...

people quit bf2 (all 30 of them) to come play arma and that idiot makes a statement that he hopes they go back, typicle small minded thinking for a small game, company, community i suppose...

and if you think a g0t gives a rats ass about banned somewhere your ill informed

[max power 21]

And to all the people claiming BI ripped people off by releasing an unfinished game, look at the Big Rigs article over at Wikipedia.

That's what you call a rip-off.

With all due respect, just because Big Rigs was a rip-off doesn't mean that ArmA wasn't. I enjoy ArmA and I never considered it a ripoff... but your argument is weak from a logical standpoint.

[maddogx 13]

im not derailing shit, the starter made their idiot comment (so i didnt even bother to read the rest of his rambling) then you compare arma to big rigs... whats derailing about that...

people quit bf2 (all 30 of them) to come play arma and that idiot makes a statement that he hopes they go back, typicle small minded thinking for a small game, company, community i suppose...

and if you think a g0t gives a rats ass about banned somewhere your ill informed

g0t = myg0t I presume?

Goodbye then.

Quote[/b] ]With all due respect, just because Big Rigs was a rip-off doesn't mean that ArmA wasn't. I enjoy ArmA and I never considered it a ripoff... but your argument is weak from a logical standpoint.

Perhaps I phrased it wrong. I wasn't trying to say ArmA is perfect, just that it could be a LOT worse.

[d3dsh33p 0]

im not derailing shit, the starter made their idiot comment (so i didnt even bother to read the rest of his rambling) then you compare arma to big rigs... whats derailing about that...

people quit bf2 (all 30 of them) to come play arma and that idiot makes a statement that he hopes they go back, typicle small minded thinking for a small game, company, community i suppose...

and if you think a g0t gives a rats ass about banned somewhere your ill informed

g0t = myg0t I presume?

Goodbye then.

Quote[/b] ]With all due respect, just because Big Rigs was a rip-off doesn't mean that ArmA wasn't. I enjoy ArmA and I never considered it a ripoff... but your argument is weak from a logical standpoint.

Perhaps I phrased it wrong. I wasn't trying to say ArmA is perfect, just that it could be a LOT worse.

thats why i buy things...

bc they could be alot worse.

[max power 21]

Quote[/b] ]With all due respect, just because Big Rigs was a rip-off doesn't mean that ArmA wasn't. I enjoy ArmA and I never considered it a ripoff... but your argument is weak from a logical standpoint.

Perhaps I phrased it wrong. I wasn't trying to say ArmA is perfect, just that it could be a LOT worse.

Your first argument was that it's okay if ArmA is messed up because other games are more messed up.

This new one is slightly different but they're both pretty logically weak. "Hey, they screwed up on the payroll and we're not being paid for shovelling this gravel, but at least we're not being whipped!" is a good way to look at the situation if you're trying to avoid getting angry. It *would* be worse to get whipped, of course, but it is also wrong not to get paid for doing a paying job. The rightness or wrongness of that comes from an agreement or a contract. It is CLEARLY wrong not to pay your employees. ArmA had no such guarantee, so all of the arguments regarding ArmA and how good it is are subjective and normative... and I guess everyone is entitled to an opinion.

[maddogx 13]

Quote[/b] ]With all due respect, just because Big Rigs was a rip-off doesn't mean that ArmA wasn't.  I enjoy ArmA and I never considered it a ripoff... but your argument is weak from a logical standpoint.

Perhaps I phrased it wrong. I wasn't trying to say ArmA is perfect, just that it could be a LOT worse.

Your first argument was that it's okay if ArmA is messed up because other games are more messed up.

This new one is slightly different but they're both pretty logically weak.  "Hey, they screwed up on the payroll and we're not being paid for shovelling this gravel, but at least we're not being whipped!" is a good way to look at the situation if you're trying to avoid getting angry.  It *would* be worse to get whipped, of course, but it is also wrong not to get paid for doing a paying job.  The rightness or wrongness of that comes from an agreement or a contract.  ArmA had no such guarantee, so all of the arguments regarding ArmA and how good it is are subjective and normative... and I guess everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Sure they are. And my opinion is as follows:

BI obviously had to decide whether to release the game before it was done, or to not release it at all and possibly face bankruptcy.

They chose the former, and I'm glad they did, because that gives them the opportunity to finish what they started through patches. If they had decided not to release it, we wouldn't be having this conversation and no one would be playing ArmA.

I personally enjoy the game and I can live with the bugs, while they're still there. Like I stated before, even in its unfinished state, ArmA is far better than many other games, and I definitely do not feel ripped off.

(removed)

[d3dsh33p 0]

BUGGA

hahaha props

[max power 21]

I don't know if they were facing bankruptcy. Cost/benefit analyses are usually conducted well before that point.

[W0lle 1050]

oh and to the thread started " Just ignore 'em, perhaps they'll go back to BF2 or some other **** like that."

I'm gonna assume from this comment that you like seeing the multiplayer with hundreds of servers and about 100 players total.

idiot

That's box #5 for you.

Goodbye and have a nice time.

[Infam0us 10]

And to all the people claiming BI ripped people off by releasing an unfinished game, look at the Big Rigs article over at Wikipedia.

That's what you call a rip-off.

I want to buy this game

[-CS-SOBR-1st-I-R- 0]

I actually took the liberty of creating a new cover for the ArmA box - for all the whiners out there who think they were ripped off:

BUGGA

LOL thats a great one

Thanks very much, this is indeed very nice. Might come in handy one day I think I'll print that out and use it as my real cover.

edit: but you might want to remove that pretty soon mate, I mean cause of copyright reasons. Maybe BIS is pretty pissed because not selling as many ArmA copies as they had hoped and might find you as a scapegoat.

[d3dsh33p 0]

huh I don't get it

[-CS-SOBR-1st-I-R- 0]

huh I don't get it

huh ? your still in ?

You've got your 5 boxes full ... and still hanging around?

[max power 21]

Maybe they give you 5 boxes then they have to manually ban or something.

[maddogx 13]

SOBR[1st-I-R] @ June 04 2007,01:55)][

LOL thats a great one  

Thanks very much, this is indeed very nice. Might come in handy one day    I think I'll print that out and use it as my real cover.

edit: but you might want to remove that pretty soon mate, I mean cause of copyright reasons. Maybe BIS is pretty pissed because not selling as many ArmA copies as they had hoped and might find you as a scapegoat.  

Good point. Removed.

Quote[/b] ]Maybe they give you 5 boxes then they have to manually ban or something.

W0lle also forgot to close the topic. Or is this discussion actually heading anywhere else than downhill?

[shadow 6]

</span>

Quote[/b] ]Well, this is sorta an anti flaming-troll thread. Guess it will be a target for all the trolls afterwards, so I ain't gonna bother reading any replies nor wish to be drawn into further arguments.

<span =''>

Then there is no reason why this thread should live.

Closing.