ineffectiveness of aircraft vs tanks

[INNOCENT&CLUELESS 0]

Quote[/b] ]The biggest issue for people here getting shot down by tanks is range.

At least I have no problem with that, but not by a 12.7 or 7.62, I wanna be hit by a time fused Anti-copter round.

The MG I wanna see in action when I discovered that there is only one tank in the area (which is almost impossible in ArmA since also the optics at the multimillion dollar copters are totally scratched and dirty), I was sneaking behind hills close to the tank to pop up above his turret where the tank cant use its main gun. Usually this tactic is required in hills and mountains.

And this time fused rounds I do not want to see in T-72 / M1A1 if they are not available in RL for those tanks since there is a unit required that receives the time til explosion calculated by the comp and sends this to the round already in the barrel of the main gun.

[whisper 0]

Quote[/b] ]The biggest issue for people here getting shot down by tanks is range.

At least I have no problem with that, but not by a 12.7 or 7.62, I wanna be hit by a time fused Anti-copter round.

The MG I wanna see in action when I discovered that there is only one tank in the area (which is almost impossible in ArmA since also the optics at the multimillion dollar copters are totally scratched and dirty), I was sneaking behind hills close to the tank to pop up above his turret where the tank cant use its main gun. Usually this tactic is required in hills and mountains.

And this time fused rounds I do not want to see in T-72 / M1A1 if they are not available in RL for those tanks since there is a unit required that receives the time til explosion calculated by the comp and sends this to the round already in the barrel of the main gun.

Not sure optical sight is that easy. It's IR (depicted in ArmA by your radar) that is often usefull to discover targets. If you're using optical sighting, yes, it will take time to spot a target.

In fact, the second main point is that we're bound to radar limitations of ArmA, mainly that targets only appear on radar when they have engine on. IRL, heat signature is visible even for unmoving targets hours after they've shut down their engine

[max power 21]

AFAIK helicopters light up in IR frequency like no other vehicle and are easily spotted this way.

2500m distance vision of a chopper :

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/4268/hpim1031rb3.jpg

The same in thermal vision :

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7690/hpim1045jb7.jpg

The biggest issue for people here getting shot down by tanks is range. A minimal view distance is required.

I play 1.07 beta with 5km VD, I tested yesterday, a rather big engagement, 20 tanks vs 20 tanks + shilkas & Vulcan (3 each side) with default skill (0.5), me in a Ka-50 as air support.

Engaging from mountain cover at around 2500/2000m (farther away I found my missiles unreliable, too low hit ratio).

I barely got shot at, even by Vulcans, 1 opened up and missed me badly. 9 out of my 12 missiles found their target, meaning I took out 7 tanks and 2 shilkas single-handedly.

If that is not proper Air Support, I don't know what it is.

This is no boasting, I consider myself average at best, just showing that with the proper parameters, you ARE deadly in a chopper, and AI reaction is really not good.

It also means that AI in a chopper will practically never be good in the attack role, seeing how it behaves at the moment.

That tanks MG (and MG in general) are a lil bit too precise, why not. But I don't think that hinders player helicopters that much, and I'm afraid too much aiming imprecision or a complete removal of MG shooting at choppers would make player helicopter way too powerfull (and easy).

You don't have to be able to do a barrel roll under a bridge in order to be a good helicopter pilot. Your jobs as a helicopter pilot is to keep the aircraft safe and to get the helicopter aligned for the gunner to do his job. The weapons on the attack helicopters are excellent and the optics are amazing in ArmA, even without the FLIR and ballistic computers. Deal with threats to the aircraft first, then think about supporting whomever is on the ground. I'm not the best pilot.. I'm getting alright at the funnel maneuver, but that's a stretch... but the thing is, I don't need to be. Hide behind some hill at 2km and hit the tanks by popping up, then get back down and move laterally slightly and do it again. It's so unfair to the tanks that it feels like cheating. I NEVER get shot down, not because I'm such a hot stick that I can slam the helicopter down on a quarter or land on any rooftop at will... but because I use my head.

[frederf 0]

The best skill a pilot ever had is good judgment.

Quote[/b] ]"Come on and get in my littlebird! I'm going to LZ in Paraiso."

"Uh, no."

"It's OK man, I'm a good pilot."

"You're going to LZ a scant 600m away, something a truck could do much more safely and in the same amount of time, probably inside all sorts of weapon's ranges."

"Don't worry, I'm a top notch pilot, quit whining."

"The most important skill a good pilot has is judgment. Doing something stupid extremely well still makes you a bad pilot. I'mma gunna walk to town..."

That little aside aside. The AI are able to put rounds on a flying helo like 100x better than a human can. I'm usually happy when the AI is effective because most people don't understand that when the AI shoots as well as a human, that's a good thing. I mean, how often have you landed the first M16 shot on an AI at 300m? Pretty often. Glad the AI aren't on the forums crying bloody murder.

Anyway, in the reverse situation, I wonder how good a human T-72 is against an AI AH-1. Something I'll test actually.

I understand the "shoot from 2000m" advice that everyone is giving, but I have to ask... how do you lock up a T-72 at that range? I don't seem to get a bug-steppable lock until a much shorter distance. Is this because they are static?

And the AI definately need a little work, namely a "STANDOFF ATTACK" type waypoint, where they strive to keep in standoff weapons' range. Or something else that prevents them from WWII-style runs at enemy armor.

[4 IN 1 0]

The best skill a pilot ever had is good judgment.

Quote[/b] ]"Come on and get in my littlebird! I'm going to LZ in Paraiso."

"Uh, no."

"It's OK man, I'm a good pilot."

"You're going to LZ a scant 600m away, something a truck could do much more safely and in the same amount of time, probably inside all sorts of weapon's ranges."

"Don't worry, I'm a top notch pilot, quit whining."

"The most important skill a good pilot has is judgment. Doing something stupid extremely well still makes you a bad pilot. I'mma gunna walk to town..."

That little aside aside. The AI are able to put rounds on a flying helo like 100x better than a human can. I'm usually happy when the AI is effective because most people don't understand that when the AI shoots as well as a human, that's a good thing. I mean, how often have you landed the first M16 shot on an AI at 300m? Pretty often. Glad the AI aren't on the forums crying bloody murder.

Anyway, in the reverse situation, I wonder how good a human T-72 is against an AI AH-1. Something I'll test actually.

I understand the "shoot from 2000m" advice that everyone is giving, but I have to ask... how do you lock up a T-72 at that range? I don't seem to get a bug-steppable lock until a much shorter distance. Is this because they are static?

And the AI definately need a little work, namely a "STANDOFF ATTACK" type waypoint, where they strive to keep in standoff weapons' range. Or something else that prevents them from WWII-style runs at enemy armor.

i dont think its all because of the AI, its more because of the FCS(what am i talking about here?) we now get limited the AI to use them effective, in which also affect human players too,

also the way AI use the FCS is needed to be tweak

[INNOCENT&CLUELESS 0]

Quote[/b] ]The weapons on the attack helicopters are excellent and the optics are amazing

You have a different game then ArmA 1.07fix5157

When I look through the KA50 optics at long distance I see buildings, trees and also tanks - if they are alone in the desert.

But hidden between trees or in towns - almost impossible with this dirty optic.

[.COMmunist 0]

My biggest problem with optics its stationary position relative to the helicopter. If you need to tilt optics down to look at tanks, the entire chopper tilts down and moves forward (which is bad when you are trying to keep safe distance). These optical devices should move independant from the main body of a helicopter. They did it with tanks (now the commander MG can move and fire independetly from the main gun), why couldn't they use the same algorithm here?

[max power 21]

Quote[/b] ]The weapons on the attack helicopters are excellent and the optics are amazing

You have a different game then ArmA 1.07fix5157

When I look through the KA50 optics at long distance I see buildings, trees and also tanks - if they are alone in the desert.

But hidden between trees or in towns - almost impossible with this dirty optic.

I like to fly the alligator mission. At 1.4 km I can see infantry clearly through the optics. After I bounce the convoy, I can usually kill everything in the base from hovering over estrella. I use vikhr-1 missiles on the shilkas and rockets on the infantry and parked trucks. After everything is killed, I usually do a fly over and smoke the parked armour with missiles and head home.

If you see 1 infantry, there are usually many. Send a few rockets his way. I usually send 1 or 2 spotting rockets followed by a salvo of 3. You also don't have to spot everything directly to kill it... but the optics of the helicopters are second only to the tank gunners optics... but the helicopters have insane zoom AND insane FOV.

[gazmen 0]

I understand the "shoot from 2000m" advice that everyone is giving, but I have to ask... how do you lock up a T-72 at that range? I don't seem to get a bug-steppable lock until a much shorter distance. Is this because they are static?

First you must have distance setting set at 2500 minimum, when you are at 2000 of target [shown on map or on cockpit (usualy search & destroy)], set autohover mode...

Then up & down on position from 50m to 400m, you should be able to detec tank even shilka..

If shilka start to shoot at you just up or down, lock it and shoot, is very simple... Then cycle target at 2000m from target you should be able to avoid is bullet... By uping & down...

Of caurse if you setting is set at 900m and If the shilka is hided behind trees those advice would not work.

[frederf 0]

I understand the "shoot from 2000m" advice that everyone is giving, but I have to ask... how do you lock up a T-72 at that range? I don't seem to get a bug-steppable lock until a much shorter distance. Is this because they are static?

First you must have distance setting set at 2500 minimum, when you are at 2000 of target [shown on map or on cockpit (usualy search & destroy)], set autohover mode...

Then up & down on position from 50m to 400m, you should be able to detec tank even shilka..

If shilka start to shoot at you just up or down, lock it and shoot, is very simple... Then cycle target at 2000m from target you should be able to avoid is bullet... By uping & down...

Of caurse if you setting is set at 900m and If the shilka is hided behind trees those advice would not work.

I was running 10000m view distance and didn't get a cycleable target until about 1000m, but I'll try again.

I can detect them, sometimes even show up in the list, but step target no workie. I'll try it with engine off and engine on bad guys. That may be the problem.

[max power 21]

I have an asthmatic 256 meg vram video card right now. I have the view distance on 4000. I find that it has more an impact on gameplay than high shaders, etc (although sometimes missions get a little broken because of the distance). I also find that it doesn't really impact the framerate as much as some other options. You can squeeze a lot of view distance out of knocking back a few other options. In fact, I'm kind of talking it up a bit to sound reasonable. I really don't notice much decrease in framerate at all. At 4000, I can see 2000m away, I believe, but the targets show up on the radar much further away.

[ArMoGaDoN 0]

Definitely the AI gunners are too quick to react, and too accurate initially.  The damage model on the cobra or the targeting of that cobra is going for the engine or forhead way too reliably IMO.

The Vikhr missiles as woefully ineffective against armour, seems to take 3 to kill an Abrams, 2 for a Vulcan- and just try using the Ka50's Vikhr against engine-off tanks.

What would really help helo pilots is a better method of targeting.  If the enemy are engine-off, possibly without a driver, and if you are without an AI gunner, or from Ka50, - have you ever tried getting a lock at ANY distance on a stationary vehicle?  In OFP the '2' menu for targeting worked for pilot-alone aircraft, in ArmA the '2' menu works only if you have a gunner.  Impossible to TAB to a non-heat-source.  The '2' menu is still a way-too-slow way of prioriting targets anyway.

Better radar, which works against engine-off targets, plus a priority-targeting-button, say SHIFT-TAB to target + cycle closest higher-threat vehicle (Shilka then other AA capable) targets would also help immensely.

As an aside - why do East only get the Ka50, not the Ka52?  If we had the Ka52 then the AI Gunner could then at least use the main cannon elevation for targeting ground forces, impossible to use that currently, and in multiplayer the ability to have a human gunner in the Ka52 would be great.

Borrowing and improving on MAP_Fact's Air addon's hellfires, with LOAL/LOBL firing modes would be very useful if those fire-modes could be incorporated into ArmA's default weaponry for Cobras... (from their Apache AH64)

[funnyguy1 0]

1. Tanks are too accurate, and helos haven't got the right protection (armor values) + the AI does target the pilots/gunners, not the helo

2. Gunners in helos are blind, you're the one who spots targets, therefore the engagement ranges are...well, far from being realistic if you rely on the gunner skills (AI helos use hellfires within few houndred meters from the target)

3. Still there's an issue with the weapons selection, tanks engage each other with MGs, and then switch to the main guns, so does the helos (but it's kinda related with the point 2)

4. BIS hellfires don't have LOAL/LOBL modes, helos don't have lasers either. Would be better imho to use TOWS (since they're finally guided) or both TOWS and hellfires (I think it's realistic, correct me if I'm wrong)

[l mandrake 9]

I understand the "shoot from 2000m" advice that everyone is giving, but I have to ask... how do you lock up a T-72 at that range? I don't seem to get a bug-steppable lock until a much shorter distance. Is this because they are static?

I too used to find this frustrating, you fly towards a town with empty radar, get within 600metres and SUDDENLY red dots everywhere, T72, UAZ, BMP, BRDM are all peppering your AH1 with 12.7mm rounds. Yeah they were invisible until they turned their engines on to engage you!

I assume BIS deliberately decided to let armour 'ambush' helicopters in this way to prevent 1 cobra from decimating every vehicle on the map, like it would IRL.

At first it annoyed me getting bushwacked like this, but actually I think it makes flying more exciting because you have to creep in and tease the enemy armour into life, then bug out and re-engage from distance.

Again, like many of the other 'unrealistic' elements it is clearly just a game balancing device. Also, perhaps BIS wanted to simulate the fact that the SLA tank crews probably arent totally stupid and so try to 'hide' their vehicles from US air power, like the Serbs did in the Kosovo crisis.

[gazmen 0]

I too find this frustrating, you fly towards a town with empty radar, get within 600metres and SUDDENLY red dots everywhere, T72, UAZ, BMP, BRDM are all peppering your AH1 with 12.7mm rounds. Yeah they were invisible until they turned their engines on to engage you!

Sad that BIS didn't add a fonction or an interface for pilote in the chopper to check the map with a recon sat, to identified & mark target, before going at coordinate...

Also what happen if you remove the fuel of tank ? And if they can not engine on ?

[Le++ 0]

Well, I did a quick test with an AH-1 vs. T-72 and Shilkas. The results were quite interesting (to me at least, since I more of a mechanized infantry sort of player):

AI Cobra pilot with me gunner on Rahmadi island. Ofpor armor at the air strip, with the Cobra at varying distances.

* At less than 400 meters 3 T-72s damaged the Cobra quite reliably within 3-5 second, not destroying it outright, but causing it to drop.

* Around 600-800 meters was the top range of the T-72s. I managed to get a single T-72 with guns only, while the Cobra only took a couple of hits. At this range Hellfire missiles where launched without too much damage to the Cobra, even against multiple T-72s.

* T-72s started firing at around 1000 meters, but at this range their fire was completely ineffective, more suppressive psychologically (to a human pilot/gunner) than anything else.

* The Cobra's Hellfires where extremely effective on the flat island from around 3000 meters, against 3 T-72s and 4 Shilkas. The Cobra was ineffectively engaged by the Shilkas at this range, and took no hits.

* Shilkas ruled the sky up to around 1100 meters, taking out the Cobra in 1-1.5 seconds (completely destroying in the air). Sound pretty reasonable to me.

From a brief search of the Internet I couldn't find the Cobra's survivability information, but the figure of armored against up to 23mm rounds someone posted here sound a bit exaggerated. If anyone has reliable information on that, I'd love to see it.

Finally, about the performance of the T-72s HMG - it didn't strike me as too accurate at all. At 800 meters the fire was very scattered, barely hitting the Cobra. Only at under 400 meters did I feel that the fire was accurate. I couldn't find the effective range of the DShKM HMG on the 'net, but the US M2 HMG is stated to have an effective range of around 1800 meters. Since both MG are comparable, I'd say it's not to far fetched for a gunner with magnifying optics firing a 0.5 HMG to hit a target silhouetted against a clear sky (and not such a small one, even with the Cobra's slim body) from 500 meters away, if not more.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Well, I did a quick test with an AH-1 vs. T-72 and Shilkas. The results were quite interesting (to me at least, since I more of a mechanized infantry sort of player):

AI Cobra pilot with me gunner on Rahmadi island. Ofpor armor at the air strip, with the Cobra at varying distances.

* At less than 400 meters 3 T-72s damaged the Cobra quite reliably within 3-5 second, not destroying it outright, but causing it to drop.

* Around 600-800 meters was the top range of the T-72s. I managed to get a single T-72 with guns only, while the Cobra only took a couple of hits. At this range Hellfire missiles where launched without too much damage to the Cobra, even against multiple T-72s.

* T-72s started firing at around 1000 meters, but at this range their fire was completely ineffective, more suppressive psychologically (to a human pilot/gunner) than anything else.

* The Cobra's Hellfires where extremely effective on the flat island from around 3000 meters, against 3 T-72s and 4 Shilkas. The Cobra was ineffectively engaged by the Shilkas at this range, and took no hits.

* Shilkas ruled the sky up to around 1100 meters, taking out the Cobra in 1-1.5 seconds (completely destroying in the air). Sound pretty reasonable to me.

From a brief search of the Internet I couldn't find the Cobra's survivability information, but the figure of armored against up to 23mm rounds someone posted here sound a bit exaggerated. If anyone has reliable information on that, I'd love to see it.

Finally, about the performance of the T-72s HMG - it didn't strike me as too accurate at all. At 800 meters the fire was very scattered, barely hitting the Cobra. Only at under 400 meters did I feel that the fire was accurate. I couldn't find the effective range of the DShKM HMG on the 'net, but the US M2 HMG is stated to have an effective range of around 1800 meters. Since both MG are comparable, I'd say it's not to far fetched for a gunner with magnifying optics firing a 0.5 HMG to hit a target silhouetted against a clear sky (and not such a small one, even with the Cobra's slim body) from 500 meters away, if not more.

DSHKM - effective range 3200-3500m. (12.7 x 108 cal.), 600 RPM and projectile velocity is 870 m/s. Quite effective at around 800-1200m. but the falloff will be too great at 3km to hit anything except stationary targets (as with all calibers).

PS. here's a sexy pic of the DSHKM on a T-55.  

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped....47.JPEG

EDIT: what you described is pretty much what happens in berzerk mod (players v players, no retarded bots). With the T-72 optics its easy to shoot down a BH at even 2km. Main turret vs all choppers, sometimes the 7.62mm mg against BH/LB pilots, when the opposite team gets a cobra, well it's time to stay behind a building and turn the engines off, waiting for your prey. In berzerk it's no problem to strike 8 out of 8 armoured vehicles with the hellfire, but after that you still have to get in close and hope they don't respawn fast enough )) since rearming in berzerk is not possible. Cobra is really effective at 2 to 6km but if you get within 1.5km of my 125 mm 2A46M smoothbore turret you'll be meeting my SABOT friend.  

[Mr.Whitlow 0]

Just to let some of you know - those who are complaining about not being able to target enemy vehicles in choppers from distances until they show up as red dots; there is a solution, although it is not the easiest of them all.

If you right click (I press it down for a second or two so that my camera doesn't change) it will target whatever your crosshair dot is aiming at (And anything around it up to a small range). So, like I said, it's not that easy, but if it hasn't detected you yet and you want to take it out with ease from a distance, it's definitely an option. You can just keep pressing it at an area if you're not sure exactly where they are due to fog or whatever. This will work regardless of whether or not you have a gunner.

[Maddmatt 1]

Just to let some of you know - those who are complaining about not being able to target enemy vehicles in choppers from distances until they show up as red dots; there is a solution, although it is not the easiest of them all.

If you right click (I press it down for a second or two so that my camera doesn't change) it will target whatever your crosshair dot is aiming at (And anything around it up to a small range). So, like I said, it's not that easy, but if it hasn't detected you yet and you want to take it out with ease from a distance, it's definitely an option. You can just keep pressing it at an area if you're not sure exactly where they are due to fog or whatever. This will work regardless of whether or not you have a gunner.

Or you can press 2 to see a list of targets, then press 0 to see more (including friendlies and vehicles with the engine off).

[Commando84 0]

omg thats a nice feature Maddmatt intresting info about the dshk machinegun, damn didn't knew Mg's could even have that kind of range though i remember once in ofp lan game at a internet café i shot down my buddy that flew a cobra and i was in a t-80 with the boom gun many times later i tried shooting down both a.i and human opfors doing so but not everytime with such success